Interview with Patrick H. Moore – S. 11, Ep. 10
<p>My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with former investigator and crime writer <a href="https://www.patrickhmoorewriter.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Patrick H. Moore</a>.</p>
<p>Check out our discussion of Patrick’s work in sentencing mitigation work. It’s a <del>lesser-known</del> unique type of investigative work.</p>
<p>You can download a copy of the <a href="http://www.debbimack.com/dmack/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/S.-11-Ep.-10-Crime-Cafe-with-Patrick-H.-Moore.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noopener">transcript here</a>.</p>
<p><img loading="lazy" decoding="async" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-26811" src="http://www.debbimack.com/dmack/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/Crime-Cafe-Patrick-Moore-e1761429406806.jpg" alt="" width="650" height="325" /></p>
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<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/6TmbLIOECuqxhyMvszYjnM4mF9jMA7Kjhd5bOZO40Ga2sGn2ieIwEPCe4SXmL-pTPSY4mdUEMjlIB0zvZN5PPU_Vd1A?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=54.27"><span class="s1">00:54</span></a>): Hi everyone. My guest today is a retired Los Angeles based investigator and sentencing mitigation specialist. Since 2003, he worked on more than 500 drug trafficking, sex crime, violent crime, and white collar fraud cases. My, what a mix. He also studied English literature and creative writing at San Francisco State University. As a student, he published several short stories and novel excerpts. In 2014, he published his first thriller novel <i>Cicero’s Dead</i>. Today he has a three-book series, the first of which is a political thriller called <i>27 Days</i>, which was along with <i>Cicero’s Dead</i>, a finalist in various awards contests. As I said, it is the first of the three books in the Nick Crane thriller series. My guest was also co-founder of a blog called All Things Crime that apparently reached its zenith of popularity somewhere in the mid-2010s, which was what, 20 or 30 years ago? No, no, it was only last decade. It only feels like 50 years. Alrighty. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest, Patrick H. Moore. Hi. So how are you doing?</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/SwF__xOJF7crSiWzykMH51RZNHPG9RM43jCYh0pmLjZ6X1u1-Ld4nTg5gbWrtGw216QVpK1yjAXg53jK21xxWgkymkw?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=146.13"><span class="s1">02:26</span></a>): Oh, I’m doing great, Debbi. Hi. Thank you very much for having me on.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Dx7oXRk5HlI8AOWB_nF9qqgVRoqP_KyHB0MuLlxkoRqna-y8zpQO3ql5ArPOOrD40yPuPJcDd8upZOOhlL7rScZOnaQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=150.36"><span class="s1">02:30</span></a>): It’s my pleasure. Believe me. And I was very intrigued to see that you used to be an investigator. Was that like a private investigator?</p>
<p class="p3">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/cdGQFfA1RzRlmgEZVdG-gc7AZuah__QphCQ3pGixo6EynC66BcKWNhvfS65yg6pW4G43tihUmi5a97CRtHqE0ErjmUU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=159.06"><span class="s1">02:39</span></a>): Well, I worked for a private investigator. The person I worked for, he held the private investigator’s license, so I did investigations for him and also I did what’s called sentencing mitigation work. We worked for lawyers primarily in the greater Los Angeles area, but also all around the country. And we would do a lot of their legwork. We would do a lot of their interviewing, and so we do their legwork, their interviewing, and also we would do a lot of the ghostwriting for the lawyers. So my specialty was actually writing federal sentencing memorandums, which are highly precise documents written in a very formal style that follow certain ground rules.</p>
<p class="p1">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/NY7kiPbpEezlGs6jLIMMDjwpMU_KdfC5erLQafU245dVEaOJPianKSwKlugA3Fk5Rg4AJRachFXFYcE6AwianqrK4zU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=216.82"><span class="s1">03:36</span></a>): And so I wrote hundreds of these federal sentencing memorandums, and I also edited hundreds for my boss, but I also did investigations. But in doing sentencing mitigation work, it really is, it is like an investigation of a slightly different sort, that is you’re not going out and knocking on doors or searching for things on the internet in one of the databases, but rather you’re actually talking to your clients or our clients, my boss’s company, John Brown and Associates. And so I would interview the clients at great length. I would interview their family members. I would collect character reference letters. So I was basically investigating the client his past, what he had or had not done, whether or not he had come from a disadvantaged background, all of those things. And so it was a kind of investigative work, but a kind of investigative work that very few people know about because the vast majority of the population has no idea that there are sentencing mitigation specialists in existence. And there actually are very few. I think Los Angeles really created this phenomenon, and I don’t think it’s really caught on in other parts of the country, which is why lawyers from other parts of the country would use my boss’s firm too.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/KXNSHvMlKwdLxx1dploTx6_kHnw67RaVl05Df_PkbrKQosuLWa9l_sqBFezHvKikB9VhpBv65byacTcu_YMucN-Y7GE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=307.39"><span class="s1">05:07</span></a>): That’s very interesting.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Jbf2myJoMELmmq2NOzb8C35JyMEfnWQqHj-YJ4ItZ9eDS7uw7fxbyx2isGfd3cS-NtXvaqTm50fB6PiE9Ick-U4E_Ng?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=309.34"><span class="s1">05:09</span></a>): Because sharp lawyers quickly realized that to get those sentences a fair deal, they needed to have lots of ammunition, they needed to have lots of arrows in their quiver, and a full complete workup on the client they discovered was hugely helpful. We also did state cases, but those were fairly simple compared to the federal cases. My specialty was federal cases, drugs and fraud cases, and of course you’d get the sex cases too, which were unavoidable. And them too. And do your best on those too.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/64u-bK4JaQbkx3zdOKI0eNM5wo4USvTe5wQPNzcEYFs3t7ZTbnlS0T7IF0ftldtupt0CwbfkSx2im3zVejARNPvCkdU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=346.3"><span class="s1">05:46</span></a>): You’re trying to tell a story about these people that paints a full picture, I take it.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/BlrNN5nyhruA-QHNuQBhmba9CRBY5vtXpfmFbFXsIn0pRXEoJPOWYzg2Kc9dnhzXXgoUjIbseaBKOeTEZUAfsk1u0b4?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=352.72"><span class="s1">05:52</span></a>): Exactly.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/G-aykrOF-rSHFEaNMztLbEA4YObCUf7mC6NVebZlecyMje-5pJNm4XNHvHWNVCloC2vs0DHFep_rZW9SNev-OTHhcNI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=354.49"><span class="s1">05:54</span></a>): How could a person get to the point where they’re at now? Yeah, it makes a lot of difference. Huge difference.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/CEalme2VUhQSsqS-NuBs0QttyGqvfTHCTrNPlUkZNlYsV6fxe0YX5fi-NR-nrnTKdNLAMsOpxYytQWC-u2gGqkuNLis?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=363.56"><span class="s1">06:03</span></a>): One of the curious things I learned is that most people who get indicted for fraud really are the vast majority are perfectly fine people who just got greedy and made a mistake, and then oftentimes they get in and they can’t get out and it snowballs. But that was a curious thing I learned, whereas most drug traffickers, well, especially transporters, mules as they’re called, they’re like poor, hardworking people usually of Latino background desperately trying to support their families and possibly the relatives back in Mexico for low wages. So they would typically make the mistake of, hey, you just drive this from here to there and we’ll pay you such and such, and that’s how they would tend to get involved. I never represented the large traffickers, which is a whole different world.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Bir8t8mCGKsfK0zV-GF21h1SBtgeeoRJMZh-gx6uKh54xiAaqcDYgqCkoe4QcmSCM8XeSO3EeY0Rvmb3pDRF1iqGj-Y?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=420.86"><span class="s1">07:00</span></a>): Different subset. What led you from being a creative writer into that particular work? I’m just curious about that.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/GNyHIUPdhYqZEvq8mrH-8R-ILYYLqE5pjwvCXeNF-NFzjvrY2yFi2dKNahO3X6vVXtU3q6veXIEnYgT5MezJOZgP1r4?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=432.83"><span class="s1">07:12</span></a>): Right. Well, there’s a backstory there. See, I’m older. I come out of the Sixties. I was purely counterculture till I was about 30 years old, and then when I was 30, I went to college and I discovered it was that I needed it. It was extremely helpful and completely fascinating. So I had a good part-time job. I was married, I had a couple kids, and those were in the days when good part-time jobs existed in manufacturing. And so I was able to help support my little family and able to go to college and all of that and able to do it all at the same time. And it was just an immensely beneficial period in my life from age, say 30 to age 39 as I was a part-time student and I worked part-time. So it took me nine years to get my AA, my BA, and my MA, all in English Lit.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/1gGUGUxOiYtOi9vbTBGqrkN2B49nK5ZoIPcPRAWbWG1PRc0is1ci2-Y3rQ_w9U2CTYk5SE_6TFmujqrr9xqC1iaTMPc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=500.84"><span class="s1">08:20</span></a>): Yeah, I know what it’s like to be a part-time student. I did that myself. I was in college for a bit longer than most, ended up going to law school. How much your background works its way into your books, do you think?</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/pELyxbZ3OZNLwIoFDHyNTJSNtAHjZerfaE2iq0woseM6L6Xg7Bu4sNPMCPV4LDoq9aR7wxT-PoGLKjKRl0DLgv0J47I?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=516.83"><span class="s1">08:36</span></a>): Well, I would say a tremendous amount. Both my years in counterculture, in the counterculture when I was never living on the streets, but I was kind of a street person for a long time, and so I met a lot of interesting characters.</p>
<p class="p1">So then we fast forward 20 years to where I’m working for John Brown in Los Angeles here, and I’m also meeting a whole bunch of interesting characters with one significant difference. The interesting characters in Southern California tended to have access to things that people in Northern California did not. And that’s why a lot of, I am not going to say they’re innocent, but in the drug world, a lot of people got, well say the mules driving drugs across the border up from state to state.</p>
<p class="p1">That kind of opportunity didn’t exist in Northern California, so I never met anyone like that. So Southern California was really, so you put the two periods together, 10 years in Southern California and my first five to 10 years here in, I mean 10 years in Northern California and my first five to 10 years here in Southern California, and you put two together and I had a great deal of information, ammunition to use in my books. Which is why my crime thrillers are considered to be highly realistic by most readers.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/m20k3FCSMNeBkM3bWlNNT7WIWdYJZoEWN64lG0i70WsptY1u_oIaYROa8P01Cs_9RvatlrkCC9jq4fBrGGU5xswD0ao?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=618.03"><span class="s1">10:18</span></a>): I was going to say you sound very much like Dashiell Hammett in the sense of you were an investigator and you kind of translated that into crime fiction.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/2aSeJM-13z7oPT1yh2Ye2TaM9CPDuSPX2_qfcX2xmBXHYM8vwQH0xTVXeRF62B5m0u0vRyjOR4194CgUz8YrHI9o3yY?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=628.05"><span class="s1">10:28</span></a>): Right, and that’s a really good point. And of course those early people are some of the original crime writers that I’ve read in the last three years since I’ve started getting published. My reading has branched out greatly. I’ve been, well for the second year in a row now, I’m a judge for Killer Nashville, and I’ve been a judge for the Shamus Award contest one year. I think I’m going to be a permanent judge for Killer Nashville probably as they like to bring us back.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Y1simqfhI5tfYamLochT9D5zClHJVYntqeojclLqULhPNUH1WZrCWl-Pb2XjzlQXvWdyA3cIl8eCYppe39I4pl0yHGU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=658.53"><span class="s1">10:58</span></a>): Cool.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/JyWQL9WdzfE2p3wUBCl889Lxyx4q9o3aBbTOxHcVdSNdDSeO2KbaxoHEchmN-U8VrKg4LJidoSRhgpqU2ktyFjHkrS4?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=661.02"><span class="s1">11:01</span></a>): And so by that, my horizons have widened for sure.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/2K92QNifzciUeos8d2u-0lkRyVEVOcsR9qwLg3btmhx9bFsoZiRO24Wc098DYeX6WL_vCkaYjTqcmTwca_A9pZsOBrI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=667.95"><span class="s1">11:07</span></a>): Yeah, I know the feeling. I feel like by reviewing books and talking to people, I’ve learned so much. Let’s see. You have three books in the series. Is this it for the series or do you plan more?</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/GQRYyoTigvRLYHaJwObhTgNPObpZWhhIQVCBdV_GNI3ialdIAT8rk5rHSyT95DKvtbr5ttJMExVKy-szc2mRAtZkr2k?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=684.78"><span class="s1">11:24</span></a>): This is definitely it for the time being. The reason is that the third book of the trilogy <i>Giant Steps</i>, the story reaches a resting point, not necessarily a final resting point, but a true resting point. And so the story is basically told for the time being. My protagonist Nick Crane, my seasoned LA private investigator. I may bring him back eventually, but I haven’t decided yet. But in the meantime, I’ve gone in another direction with my writing.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/JLHgGgtyqBuADwfxPmkLDnQqatm-vQJCFDg1tWgekEZVc09p9XoqxRv1NGzrgNAB9hSM5YuisqEvQKvGtMOXCpYcOdI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=722.26"><span class="s1">12:02</span></a>): What direction are you going in with your writing then?</p>
<p class="p3">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/m-MuVKv2KftYAl3dYUbQGRv_0OmParUrK96_M7Bp8Ck0j4I6Lcla9xhwGrCwkaXO-7YjPqfb70rbKgPc0b_jk23yPec?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=725.17"><span class="s1">12:05</span></a>): Well, the direction I’m going in now is to try to reach a more mainstream audience, including the large women’s market, which at least now I think they formerly were more interested in violent thrillers. But I think that’s really changed over the last five years. And so I’m kind of writing kind of, what did they say? Kind of perhaps high concept, soft-boiled crime fiction primarily geared for the women’s market.</p>
<p class="p3">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/N7cdIbw_B_AmGUtBiDTPfUglMKsWowICtY2HPz0IW7xtva0hRYNOR1b_rx8zngSLDpfC_RpHxoCY4SJJ4XwlQf9rBZM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=763.09"><span class="s1">12:43</span></a>): In order to do this, I’ve had to learn to create female protagonists and to learn how to do them convincingly. I’ve had a huge amount of help from my little sister Ellen. Sometimes when you start a book, you write sections, which you’re just kind of exploring the characters, and she had me redo things over and over again. She would say, Patrick, this simply will not do. And so one thing I learned, and this is interesting, working for John Brown at John Brown and Associates writing federal sentencing memorandums. I was very rigorously edited for the first five years because the stuff has to be essentially perfect before it can be filed in federal court.</p>
<p class="p1">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/9pQMa6Ju2aeHHNtxOo9SgumtOLaBNz-aXuhdC5zZJH3U0mpwPNXiHTnCe9iVptgjsZDtMzyaYRVw85hpCk3uUb7FfpM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=816.04"><span class="s1">13:36</span></a>): And so I learned to write and rewrite and rewrite some more. And so I think if anything, truly helping me with my writing, I think it was being rigorously edited for years, writing these federal sentencing memorandums. In my own work now, well, in the trilogy, the Nick Crane trilogy, every page has probably been written at least 20 times. Some pages have been gone over 30 or 40 times. I’m a very slow writer and that’s what it takes me to get it right, but having been so rigorously edited, I kind of know at this point when it’s right.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/4Y9NL1mAjnQLuN9ns6EgKwSYU_OPckI8GsRbfn1K3CYTLxxrCk8lTu7EuzPCajTt4wiuqGbyE5MBghpq9zBWA6uTtR0?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=857.17"><span class="s1">14:17</span></a>): So what sort of writing routine do you follow?</p>
<p class="p3">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/WO0NQA6Wr4BLXWRTHqIFVSeI8VHoqqvxvGdGUlvIAUUU1zHE6OQoHsnOHnphP6fsbMkeNP_6KIcsNfgUWNWhi0a54Ck?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=861.55"><span class="s1">14:21</span></a>): My writing routine, it’s kind of casual. As I say, I’m a very slow writer. I don’t like to write more than four hours a day, so I try to write about 20 hours a week. And of course I’m thinking about the stories a lot at the other time. But actual time sitting at the keyboard, I would say about four hours a day, maybe five days a week, that’s always been my pattern. Now that changes when I’m doing editing late in the game. And that reminds me what I wanted to mention, this is what you readers probably do not know is that some of the small publishers do no in-house editing other than copyediting. And so on these three books, I did all my content editing myself. I have a really good friend who I send my books to when they’ve about reached beta stage and he reads them and he makes his suggestions and he’s very rigorous too.</p>
<p class="p3">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/VZHeRX_ADE-PKKdrzY9JpwXw3FHhm4QBclf1t9U4mHkXm9ifVQcKQ6KjQIpoOiQbsfdEJUOw7tF-HkYvRcDsM5Kgof4?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=934.82"><span class="s1">15:34</span></a>): And so I generally followed his suggestions, and this is what I learned the collaborative process from working for John Brown is that a collaborative process results in better work than does a kind of unicellular process to coin a word. I dunno if that exists as opposed to a collaborative process. And so I very much believe in the collaborative process. If going forward, if I end up getting another publisher and I have a relationship with Shawn Simmons at Level Best Books. Now, they do complete, they refer to themselves as the Big Six. So they follow a procedure like a Big Five publishing house would where there’s a complete developmental edit and all of that. But working with my former publisher Down & Out Books who, bless their hearts, they published dozens of us, older male violent thriller authors who could not find publication elsewhere. And I am perennially grateful that they published me and they published three of my books and they were very good to me, but because they published so many authors and they were on a shoestring budget, they could not get the books into bookstores and they were not in a position to do a developmental edit.</p>
<p class="p1">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/h7da3Lt5yMgQ-bq-EaOSKtLj5BbDU5h8fIMZ7fIVfKcePmjeHqfYuG2M6ht2IvfIixPwaXZdzwiAYw5wbCjhdSdleAQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1033.07"><span class="s1">17:13</span></a>): And so I was really largely on my own. So like <i>Giant Steps</i>, my most recent, I spent hundreds of hours fine tuning it after Down & Out had done their copy edit. That was really just like the beginning. And so I finally reached a point where I was happy with it.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/E7G0kUeD-u_3bcp67ieo5T0xF0X6P7ZzoCvC9BxQyn6iSQgMV6V_hM4RRh84OxceOTmp87Gta4hLhSFHQ16z1abZSUU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1054.97"><span class="s1">17:34</span></a>): This is very interesting because you’re talking about the realities here of small publishing, and a lot of people don’t appreciate how hard this whole process is and how lengthy everything, the editing, the copyediting, but you can really speak to that because you’ve been involved in it at that level. So this is all very interesting.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/ybCsWIcGjnQcyxqCuTVO4rmO8CStsHdEiwu1URA_q-3x6hAZpCTadXEesXeDZWcWPGOOuaS5IksNz-Ow9DVtqDwrWIA?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1080.24"><span class="s1">18:00</span></a>): I’ve been involved in my own copyediting and my own content editing. It’s kind of amazing. It actually attests to the fact I’m a good writer. The fact that my books that come out as strong as they are, despite the lack of, well, but I did have the one developmental edit from my friend, my developmental editor, my personal friend, and he’s perhaps the most brilliant literary guy I know. It’s important to realize that we’re from a literary background. We’re not from a crime writing background. I came to crime writing late in life. I was probably a literary snob most of my life. I’m still, when I’m not reading crime fiction, it’s like I’m trying to get all the way through <i>Anna Karenina</i> and I’m determined to get through <i>War and Peace </i>before I die.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/PI97PPIGm8G3RpJTvqciYhQGAQ2FBUlmo0Yg1ARiFuEQMwoC47Zw9Ymhu4-P5LEhrLYbbmrAYECxa_neqV4zHmUWeOM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1135.68"><span class="s1">18:55</span></a>): Good, cause I did. It’s cool. It’s actually a really good book.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/o89MQlzL0Ft3YQL8Srua2mFTZHye3ob9AOhyYwa0L3_oFEtW4iMdJEFLnmy1PjjPbuR9Fl-4bNIzfNwsc3PscBTwXpc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1141.89"><span class="s1">19:01</span></a>): I’m about a third of the way through <i>War and Peace</i>, and I’m about a third of the way through <i>Anna Karenina</i>.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/4vckbYcq3RGRGPTRJ1hbAK2CXLPD8-_264HaBoQtq-L-w0ZHJV2z5zD4zFCvhXPa82IciXrhgZmR5NUqhZ1Itli4rC0?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1147.8"><span class="s1">19:07</span></a>): Excellent.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/DDGibsEL_6K3-GVQqx9TcHwKg8VmbrSYh5eMGBvsR4s_J9O2YDQJonId6ZAtm19FIJQhj4DgxPflXJuvMLcnp4tkC7U?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1148.66"><span class="s1">19:08</span></a>): I think I may stick with <i>Anna Karenina</i> for the time being because it’s a little shorter.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/XipAcg-azyw1j2L8ss-cB_nklRfDMSGs1uTo1419Ip18zoMWFPXZW5IVSM_72OVucarGJJ7AQytXBOnvs1WXXbxN144?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1153.74"><span class="s1">19:13</span></a>): My sister tells me it is good. I haven’t read it, actually. I was so busy reading <i>War and Peace</i>, I guess.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/2AyppmfpUUYZ72q8Z6aIMwO_fRyAGVgAEqE7NDNd3AkvB_onAdkf2hN6Mg-Zb1lG6FZV8HUZzwDsg2j3mYbaknwlM9U?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1162.41"><span class="s1">19:22</span></a>): Which is a monumental accomplishment.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/D1Uq9XpAxNv-pE_kjrhnxhZx6g-Wp1JJdZ5xmy2wMMWgE_SxxUUZViYp6mjV5CnxcZChVRIvsdPM6_cm4D99zakIGsQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1164.15"><span class="s1">19:24</span></a>): Oh my gosh, yes. Oh my gosh. It took him seven years, I read somewhere. And one of the things I kept telling myself when I wrote my first novel was, you’re not trying to write <i>War and Peace</i>, Debbi. You don’t have to take seven years to do this. Really. I noticed that you collaborated at one time with one of my favorite authors and also a person I consider a good friend, Frank Zafiro.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/5tps0TScZd4l-xyABJvF_2KGufwWX3MhNHq99dUSt2sohccXovT1_lVtB8Q9-zt5r55D7vsb-deh4oxlItIPt_UW_HQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1193.55"><span class="s1">19:53</span></a>): Oh, sure, Frank. Yeah. This was right after Down & Out had published my first book <i>27 Days</i> about when we scheduled this interview because your podcast is so incredibly popular. And so anyway, they had published <i>27 Days</i> and Frank had his 35-episode anthology, A Grifter’s Song book, and they had lost a collaborator, so I was just asked to write an episode for them. And so I wrote the episode, and so I was glad to accept the offer, and so I wrote the episode for them, but I had to do it really quickly because I was really time crunched with a bunch of other things, but I wrote it and it came out I think really well. People really like it. And so that’s how I know Frank. I don’t really know Frank personally. I met him.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/_eFQKULXQQnqK8cI62he_gfvQOroeomIu6Zb1rmzv2BN7ueVKlScNaark5Z-nUmaXUDmZpnjOTjC3nPRdrvpFxZMnyo?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1257.97"><span class="s1">20:57</span></a>): Well, he does like to collaborate with people I know that much, and he’s just a really nice guy and a really good writer.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Z39hgz3kORmhJoUAuGrfqmHTE3DmRXNEgQ8wePbVhz6e3hZtRcZKaowt8FpNlv2_4uphVvoUYhsvs-fMn3MfZyWY70c?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1266.67"><span class="s1">21:06</span></a>): I know that he has now gained full control over that 35-episode, five volume series, and he’s going to be republishing it, and so it may see more of the light of day.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Bib7L42zGAT87LEg0Plp7yQOZfR3LEkfm4a0teJ9jBt0j_Qy4kaUdEfjT6wyfIkY2hFzXBj0Vxh0yPUKyGppPeci0jw?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1281.46"><span class="s1">21:21</span></a>): That’s excellent. That’s wonderful. I’m going to have to get in touch with him. It almost sounds like a screenwriting process, like a web series when you talk about a book being laid out in episodes.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/KTOReCJrE-KVEDzI5sBhgsmzzYvXbf20geDbfKcGbwhkVcXUMHG1HtaQaNLQDxtiLf1Gk_sacAzrp8O8NJ9LPQ1D_UQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1297.27"><span class="s1">21:37</span></a>): But the thing about his series, every episode is unrelated to the previous episode.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/3SV1KuThb8NYckC_wadmDXm5edJAW5yjX-3yGhLMFdrjkMP-b2p_1lg9THiYZGh1iafL06U2gu-GMO2wmfOsjvgbH0k?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1301.77"><span class="s1">21:41</span></a>): It’s an anthology series that’s still a series,</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/QdPjR0NmBTx4ceYkXl2BUSbtqk_fws1dLSb3HxkdGRFax1I1zc3AGP_2RcRlDWhITnv3cd_27_uTmB-SPffQmF3yOD0?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1309.18"><span class="s1">21:49</span></a>): And there is a relationship because they’re kind of supposed to follow chronologically from the last episode. So it would be like a TV series where different writers are writing each episode and the episodes are only slightly connected.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/UNvWme1Yo-7R9OwG8ZQ7Umvc3hB0tPeUz5cBEBB06fQG_cJmFZTglgX-HvwfntfS_5oaLs8rkiJen7UJ11n6r38yk8Y?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1326.85"><span class="s1">22:06</span></a>): You’re like a very, very loose writer’s room, sort of with Frank, maybe as the showrunner, quote unquote?</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/0TYskNZQZ47-g2blDDBXx8RCcsb_s8LlbU1TcFbtmOBLYA_bBckSr4rZXN5PTaj34UYTkeyogOWTgU7keQTzetVOfQI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1337.32"><span class="s1">22:17</span></a>): Right. Well, we’ll see how he does. Yeah, I’m looking forward to seeing how he does.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/fvF-Rf2AzqQA_GrxGKFujngurXQWBF6q_KxUOuSjnNGaH-m2dwi5vVhSmxTsRzg7TdVQObsSZ8L1-M6vB6JOoGP2dvE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1342.99"><span class="s1">22:22</span></a>): That’s great. Let’s see. Have you ever considered screenwriting? That’s not a really monetarily immediate payoff, I got to tell you.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/-Fye6OOMCNyqnH5swMNzlbpBQ2WXpEZBC8ET8Fwihe-_FXJm8mM_wCRKivOe96TjvpY4NaImMCW1Rm_9rn0t4y0jOgo?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1351.63"><span class="s1">22:31</span></a>): No, no, I never have. I’ve never, because simply it would be an entirely new learning curve. I have enough, it’s hard enough for me to write decent novels.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Jm8y1-f3DVf1QeLdy_5jBYYcsQ0wGpMaMAp6GAzCSGIll2Ai4WdwzofieHv353GFyQMIgXsV9DTrzeluwoFs08_E5OA?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1360.24"><span class="s1">22:40</span></a>): I get it. I do.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/f1pv-EnPXYWMUZlQ_-X7NqlOD6uq-_vaDvCs2nlIxD5RFSNj64o7U0_QyOJKl7JSUHfPajU9-vTnPwSHnnBnOOKV7Cw?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1362.43"><span class="s1">22:42</span></a>): Furthermore, everything I hear, if you’re ever going to get a TV series for your books, you’re much more likely to get a TV series from your books than you are from screenplays. I was contacted by a Hollywood script doctor not too long ago, who is interested in my series, and he made that very clear. That books are where it’s at, if you want to get a TV series.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/npw_5utZsq6iidGl0EBMxccUhTqW6FQ7CIus2ihIWcITHtq7SEdS_W75BDoHVRijPy2tJ1ayShPiIXcdaemlztue2eM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1391.02"><span class="s1">23:11</span></a>): Yes, amen to that. Books are the lifeblood of the industry, really. IP.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/SMkvCv5CuaN3QDUfqhrKjXNv2rTlb58hMuJDVNbEu7iziLeKiXdbVQ5OWUG4iIwmpgqf_Xt8wPE6m1deheUXePHKrOk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1400.41"><span class="s1">23:20</span></a>): Now, the thing he told that was a little surprising was that he said that when producers are considering books they might want to turn into TV series, they’re really not interested in the quality of the writing of the books, and they’re not interested in the sales. What they’re interested in is primarily whether you have a powerful iconic protagonist or any other single thing and a storyline that they can recreate in whatever way they want into their storyline. And so that was very interesting.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/L7yLpKKAoNuTTYqiUjSeDZILDxsO_EEpj7pUjaOBRVST2lZOXBOThNmfg-FXbtAL18zSz5VTodCC5eg15bykWdsydl0?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1443.81"><span class="s1">24:03</span></a>): Oh, yeah.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/M7tQRl6PjXHeTRqd13S-UFaMlmbkC0MR84dle5bChfK-b17h_tyq8O6ZA39-4MNmp8YioU2Ca-ExdOK4FD_i_pmDyvQ?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1445.69"><span class="s1">24:05</span></a>): There’s a fellow named Alan Roth. He is sufficiently connected. He goes to the producers’ meetings and he says all TV series come about through the auspices of the producers. He goes to these meetings and they refer to themselves as the generals, suggested that everything does go through them.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/IB7nrgJrsI9_sQIAifhC5dGRlFVTN62e_GoC8nt-qGojW0CGn50O7dEAC2iHDualKE5N3yCktF0vBrYaKTOtL8z7vf8?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1469.99"><span class="s1">24:29</span></a>): Yes, very interesting. It’s a very interesting industry, to say the least. So what authors have most inspired you and your writing?</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/RJ-v_gDPADAI4zcwbmlAT0WSPwDuAGkD_WgGythKsGQY2hlrR8RQ3GKZ48tKIt6B8Y_npbqwCqUC9LVc-_S82VCH448?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1485.71"><span class="s1">24:45</span></a>): Well, in my crime writing?</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/rjUztZ8w19-VK6ZlACYbVZd1SmrDLd2o_KCYeny_jUcTN-qOcN31gRlMoXHsEeFEbXiHg7udON8luSsk9P87M7-zXCA?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1489.07"><span class="s1">24:49</span></a>): In your crime writing? Yeah.</p>
<p class="p3">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/6T3OB4qp31wswrED5QtK6nROnFNix-Vot1ghull84trISKBOM2RpH1reIHZufmlH5p58CnutR76w8YfsLF4H0O4NZ_Q?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1490.75"><span class="s1">24:50</span></a>): Yeah. Well, the authors that, I mean, it’s really where I started out. I started out when I moved to Los Angeles in 2003, I started reading Dennis Lehane and James Lee Burke, and I read a bit of Lee Child, too. I don’t consider him to be of the quality of the early Dennis Lehane or James Lee Burke by any means. But his books are, they’re very readable. He has the knack of making his books readable, even though they’re about very little.</p>
<p class="p1">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/__H9zInttWOtdNTiIiq_UUb6MC5dbRUfqd45bbcIQSfaGhwbmMobpJrm30d_CPRi80mxvxR61WEy4vhShk6M7e7xSqs?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1523.18"><span class="s1">25:23</span></a>): And are just kind of silly, but they’re very readable. But so mostly I read Lehane and James Lee Burke, and so that’s why I began writing kind of violent crime mystery thrillers. I was especially influenced by the early Dennis Lehane, and the reason I was is because it seemed to me that he was able to combine vivid characterizations with strong storylines and great dialogue. There was a difference I saw between him and James Lee Burke. James Lee Burke, vivid characters, beautiful writing and fine dialogue. But the third quality, the coherent plot, the coherent storyline is to some degree is lacking from James Lee Burke, in my opinion. So anyway, so I’d say Dennis Lehane was my initial powerful influence. In fact, I met him at Bouchercon last year in Nashville, and I was able to tell him after he was a keynote speaker there, or one of the keynote speakers, and I caught him afterwards and I said, Mr. Lehane, very respectfully, you were my inspiration. And I have several crime novels published now, and I probably never even would’ve written them if I hadn’t read your early Dennis Lehane books.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/XYXUszVliRelbDHGW6JGREOi3BMvRb3DWAcVBNwKGbw92HYHNlYqT0Aru85gPXVWk3Ty6HV3slcCqJ1YFvKzD6_9ZeU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1613.31"><span class="s1">26:53</span></a>): That’s so cool.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/vU0qZrcZccztfonN6Dg5z1eEXO5tn0le7_LWKHNI1D6-6oDj1ytFMTADtuS_VqlSJigZI_iLD2Z3s-x0xpYUqI_5NgI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1615.5"><span class="s1">26:55</span></a>): And then I asked him why he switched to writing mob novels because I thought it was very odd because in the early Patrick Kenzie mystery thrillers, he just makes so much fun of the mob. Oh my God. He castigates them. And yet there many years later, he’s writing, he wrote a series of mob novels and he said, and I’m not sure if I got the real answer from him. I was just always interested in writing a mafia novel is what he told me.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/2laJS4DQ3FD1l73bmU3hi083t41PgmU3AIiwcELtQ0Phq51__qMGG3UobPlZrBGbjOpzY0YRku4AJEZTDqVSI6ntr0Q?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1658.97"><span class="s1">27:38</span></a>): Interesting. Well, we’re all inspired by different things, that’s for sure. What advice would you give to anyone interested in a writing career?</p>
<p class="p3">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/dXPWSvRRx_Gd1KU6znat3lgBP3wCZgBXQ6DWbRMTeLqx8x2-Afci0GvkyBhuMfn_6WKzO-b6wzxUCyxNr0bFT2_4kWw?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1673.7"><span class="s1">27:53</span></a>): Well, that’s a tough question because unless you have the proper connections and unless you are incredibly determined, you’re not likely to have much of a writing career. But I don’t think I would give advice to people with respect to a writing career. I would give people advice with respect to writing.</p>
<p class="p3">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/sdY8Xf2xeSsbQJwL8gmcneWBwum4kEqHZuME32V1CYuEu14entVrt14qjvs_S9TAigG2CJWDmj4qoRMAN_hD6bwZWZc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1704.09"><span class="s1">28:24</span></a>): What the advice would be is people should write what they love, just the kind of standard old saws, the standard cliches. People should write what they love, they should write what they know about, and they should write what they think might be what is meaningful to them. When I was a young man, when I was in college, I wrote a couple of early novels, and I had an agent back in New York back in the days when all those things were much easier to do, and he shopped two of my books for two years around New York, and they didn’t sell. I mean, he wasn’t able to land a deal rather.</p>
<p class="p3">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/1rAu0jkc6HYPb3jR7aRD9yKDw-VsHjzt2fXIp4vjPIhFDgiFY7RsUzcReeUWfhQnRnpgWkprM-4quhqVTchVgxs87LE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1748.11"><span class="s1">29:08</span></a>): And so I learned pretty early on that just the fact that you get an agent, it doesn’t really mean anything. I have a good friend now, a young writer who actually, he’s not that young, but he’s younger than me, and he has a book with an agent, with a fairly, very respected agent, and she’s been shopping it for a year or two, and I could hear complaints from him, well, it’s just sitting on her desk. She’s not sending it out anymore. What’s going on? I had the same exact experience with my Nick Crane thrillers back a few years ago when I was attempting to find representation, and I had a well-known Hollywood producer from yesterday year, a man named Peter Hoffman. He actually schooled me also in learning how to write mystery thrillers, crime mystery thrillers. And he managed, with help of people that he knew, I got a New York agent just a few years ago, three years ago, and he shopped one of the books that comprised the Nick Crane trilogy.</p>
<p class="p3">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/vTDAALmExFrZMODeN3y-6vnVMzQA5PJNxkDgLf-n27o-FYg4xchP6PgXHpi13BkqUlyTsMVeA_RNSJs5MLHQA4I38Mw?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1824.1"><span class="s1">30:24</span></a>): He shopped <i>Rogues and Patriots</i> for two years around New York and no success. He sent it to 65 publishers. So he worked really hard on it. He did make a key mistake, in my opinion, he should have demanded a very thorough rewrite, and he didn’t. And because what happened was then the first book of the trilogy that was published <i>27 Days</i>, that was published through Down & Out by a recommendation from a writer you may know of Charles Salzberg.</p>
<p class="p1">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/JWQVq_snB_TmXjeaVRLnEr6tMB8JqoRq2bpUKgjuBbalXtolxiM7T5YecOdhGLRJPLLpbosveGTVtOiM3u72Q3dqWVE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1858.12"><span class="s1">30:58</span></a>): Charles recommended me to Down & Out, and then Down & Out, published 27 Days. And then after that I was a bit more experienced, and I reread Rogues and Patriots, the second book in the trilogy, and I realized, oh my God, this needs a slew of work. So I did all the work on my own and sent it to Down & Out, and then they published it. And I really feel like, and I think agents often do that. I think often they get a book and it has a whole lot of promise, but it needs, it’s at about the beta stage maybe at best. It needs a whole lot of work, and I think they often don’t have their authors do that work, and so it puts ’em at a huge disadvantage when they start sending it out.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/z5NEz2v0kAhnWuIQ65_F99Vj3o1eqdTQTo5N4Ieb3mZMTiz2lGph68Glu6KOv-pAG2APlWqxBMyg5z7KC4PyE4YOFR0?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1915.3"><span class="s1">31:55</span></a>): Yes, I agree with you completely. In fact, I suspect from what I’ve heard about the publishing world, developmental editing has taken a hit because of how much it costs to keep that staff on hand. Would that be correct?</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/bQ0cULlBYa7XNZs5KxwoX7XEVAcGqSXgHGLLrQbD_N_ogE79XS92r1_-gAel9gv1s9L04cxq4hEaj9qQpiUTrGHCTAA?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1936.33"><span class="s1">32:16</span></a>): Well, I think probably so. I mean, I am sure you probably know more about it than me, but it makes sense.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/PCxSEadQe2D7XEqGbopzHii_jqDSwJquhGvZsoKxzjlQcqDH6DjQekdjsEePwEdwm8bft5YqgCZ64xtM9Qt2Ff2MtII?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1942.78"><span class="s1">32:22</span></a>): I mean, it just seems like editing is just not as done as it used to be because everybody’s so anxious to get the books out there.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/0M6EKQNJz1fSKcmbQ3DEd6011oBGUMSS-9ERdbl6mShexEDnKiaYM53tEssr0SJll333POtC1gqUdoBeJCcfiTns2tE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1954.93"><span class="s1">32:34</span></a>): How do you think it’s handled at the Big Five publishers?</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/79fLL3JMKMw_10CeK_vxmWvfhNsXzMNbqe-Pp2al_seE0fcWImUjbUGdrLvTTr0XAbWRPzo_8cFuaJf3DM00R5LOIAw?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1958.35"><span class="s1">32:38</span></a>): I don’t know. That’s the thing. I really don’t know much about Big Five publishing other than what I hear from people who have books with Big Five publishing. What I hear is not always the best thing.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/kH-GGuI_cbQ2dRjV1mTE_7ki8J7mBf2hHxKxKjznuVj96CSDDoiYgE9eGtrfl0d0RTLHehsCFlxvUnHljgRMkpvGzF0?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1972.01"><span class="s1">32:52</span></a>): They’re probably often complaining they’re not getting enough support.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/7_dUuwAX7OkxkMZlsqe7mBK-lpgGG0umNlconAWSSvIV3lrOFBdEdrji5FZuqM7ia9ln_7ZN-qTusR1QFJd2F1HdjLk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1975.37"><span class="s1">32:55</span></a>): Oh, yeah. I mean, there’s never enough marketing support. When you’re a crime fiction writer, you never get enough marketing support unless you’re somebody like Lee Child or Stephen King or I can name a bunch of big names. We all know who they are. I’m not going to do it.</p>
<p class="p3">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Gv3FjXbC-x-w0N6X1OejEVRaifIIIgFB38ei3ddozfi2FwmCPLTe5bdpfP37bcXcLMv37BEqkmMgg-eGof2f0urEeO4?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=1995.65"><span class="s1">33:15</span></a>): I can give you an example of, when I was at the LA Book Festival this last spring. We were sitting there at the, it was either Sisters in Crime or MWA, Mystery Writers of America, and I was sitting next to Nicholas Meyer who wrote <i>The Seven-Per-Cent Solution</i> years ago</p>
<p class="p1">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/h2pQgjeiO5nlw5lNSSojWCfuItQxYzXBupOuVIkwBmlSJgF-URCdfl6qJzf_Ws9nqv56n0tlYK7w409mtxSB8zlfzFk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2013.02"><span class="s1">33:33</span></a>): And has written many books. And he was mostly a Hollywood guy the last 20 or 30 years. And so he recently wrote a book, and Nicholas Meyer is one of the readiest people I’ve ever talked to. And so he’s telling me about he had to go on his, he did a book tour through his publisher of his last book, but they really didn’t support, they set up the book tour, I guess, but he had to pay all his own expenses. He had to lug all his own books around, and he was talking about this. And meanwhile there at the LA Book Festival, because he’s very popular, his books were selling, he must have sold maybe a hundred to 200 books over the course of two or three hours when we were manning the booth. So this is how popular he is. Yet he had to pay his own expenses to get from city to city.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/c5eNKvEgYW_vU7nIYWiGio-oA2V06i3bqD_HNsARhZW_ezsQnxxXAzaUmuRNdc45olCNQQ3LQH0M1CT_E5WexHbgN0w?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2071.85"><span class="s1">34:31</span></a>): Isn’t that something?</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/bt5N6j6uCRx4o_O0mTBtakCKJhzCdrDJINvMLlZTXsTLpj-Ksu9TjPcpBzHc0HemgK4GTA3QlBDTKkAAtFB8DHrCaGs?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2073.44"><span class="s1">34:33</span></a>): And he has a Big Five publisher.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/V2OF7TsSwGbiBz6ISBLHAsjVn4FzVfeOkCbkXUj-o7YfnKj_1S1TUsSky0Kd4Nk71RzYuL6lBlG2l56NJsyaR-4wc_8?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2075.09"><span class="s1">34:35</span></a>): Yeah. Yeah. Isn’t that something? Doesn’t that make you wonder, oh, never mind. I’m not going to go there.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/EDB2cH7n8FRXaOv6mqpJlLgBtlpQSS6kpEqRsRe2bUTrGI1WIfTlqM0T21IofuRXHzqaaAm_bzfAFM3nW8GiopXZJyI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2082.08"><span class="s1">34:42</span></a>): According to what I. Oh, go ahead.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/nBxK9ikD5Takh2F3VgHdstXlpCQOKrl2ISEqU6Nz-fE4vSVtxOvRdJUqfSVPfN43_OZ6QYHSEVJ8kTDSEJlHTDG4_m4?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2085.34"><span class="s1">34:45</span></a>): I was just going to say what advice, no, I’ve already asked you that. Is there anything else that I have not asked you about that you would like to bring up in conclusion?</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/ErhFdBqDMgIpghvF-sboWEZcyKzShz7XjpWfWFncQIP9naMopHN6GTJnovGqVAT0-8oBKfy4QaNggGgHw9SQCsSOQNU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2100.41"><span class="s1">35:00</span></a>): Yeah. Well, I think I would like to just touch back on your question. What advice would I give to writers? I would say, first of all, unless you’re a genius, you’re probably going to have to write a number of novels before until you’re able to write an actual publishable novel that is a novel that someone else would publish. Obviously anyone can self-publish a novel. So I’d say it’s a very long learning curve, unless you’re a genius. Truman Capote wrote <i>Other Voices, Other Rooms</i> when he was 24 years old. It was by far his best novel, in my opinion. And he never really wrote another good novel unless you consider <i>Breakfast at Tiffany’s</i> to be a good novel. I consider it to be kind of ho-hum.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/X0Vc41ROMOg_4cMUifMdbDYFCyILYYnI1VjD2-DQ86xbgqBAdW5r0C38trZhNRb6X5K7GVAB745umyiLcGD0x0YLpig?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2161.74"><span class="s1">36:01</span></a>): It’s okay. The movie’s better.</p>
<p class="p3">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/_R_yneuIV3vown_2GCeW9jp0foc74Wj_DZZ3e00AIbX1ALZJBgoybCDmgwcKNyKOvM2LO_S9ZfA1HqAwdt1gvYXgh00?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2165.01"><span class="s1">36:05</span></a>): Yeah, probably so. I don’t think I’ve seen the movie, but yet he wrote at age 20 and he’d written, he started writing and he was seven years old and had written millions of words by the time he wrote that when he was a very young man. And so I would say it’s a very long learning curve unless you’re a genius, but it’s a very rewarding learning curve because you will eventually learn how to write irrespective of genre, whether you’re writing crime fiction, thrillers, mysteries, cozies, and my new work I’m working on, actually, there’s a kind of tiny element of the cozy to it perhaps, but not the pure cozy which has the whole interest like in cooking or whatever the interest might be. But so whatever you write, there is a very long learning curve and you have to love it. It has to, and it shouldn’t be. I remember one of my English teachers when I was first starting out at college at the community college, Foothill Community College in Los Altos, California, and he was a very good writer, and he’d actually had, he won one year, the Iowa Workshop for the outstanding book of short fiction. And I’ve read that book four or five times and a bunch of good short stories, but he wasn’t really a natural novelist, and it was clear to me that he really didn’t enjoy writing. It’s like the idea of writing, being suffering,</p>
<p class="p3">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/ILFYwPCwvyuA30tUjmvdCXaXYW4J11IBrc2f2uUXr8j_T5-BjRnr4gc0yuFSLT2rASlqkkMjMwhs8elbWFe2JJgBm-A?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2263.62"><span class="s1">37:43</span></a>): Writing really shouldn’t be suffering. I know there’s the cliche of the suffering artist, and the artist may be suffering, but the writing itself should not be suffering. It should be more pleasurable than not, so that it’s something you really feel compelled to stick with because it takes a long, long time to get good. I thought of another friend I have who is an unpublished novelist, and I’ve read three of his novels, and the first two weren’t even close to being publishable, and the last one is closer, but it would still need another year’s work. It’s very long and it would need another year’s work. Now, this fellow, he’s had several short stories published. He’s an excellent short story writer, and he has probably only written a dozen or so, but they’re very good. And then once again, for advice to writers, well, some writers are probably better suited for writing short stories, short fiction rather than full length novels. It depends what you have a natural predilection for. For me, I mean, I had several short stories published when I was at university, but in the college magazines.</p>
<p class="p1">(<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/UbFwhgUeH34eHzT4sWp2xmRanDl9K4tF7Li7Eso0C4fyqzQS-FV0Iv_hY30ssmzP661D9aZJsdMM3VD_cdciAX-0ZXM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2346.73"><span class="s1">39:06</span></a>): But other than that, I’ve written very few short stories and I don’t feel like I have a natural inclination for it. Whereas the idea of the novel, the big, broad canvas, is very appealing to me. So once again, what do you want to write? What do you enjoy writing? And is it meaningful to you? And are you willing to pay your dues? Because the dues, it’s kind of like there’s no ending to the dues, because even if you do learn to write and you get your books published or your books are good enough that they’re on a par with what small publishers would publish, even if you indie publish, unless you reach that point, there’s no way on earth your books are going to sell. And so then the other thing you have to realize is that even if you learn to write excellent fiction, there’s no guarantee you’re going to be able to sell very many volumes.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/mJPVISXR-N4LmTHbCeH7XwQptN4N0yn4jdwixqp3W9nYx34yYA8GJq0gtM-KfeOOWE-JONmR0E7WEOMVVrbqkbV_5gk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2404.87"><span class="s1">40:04</span></a>): Yes. That’s just the honest truth right there. Yeah. There are no guarantees.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/wf9Kdjs47hpGhOf6VlRsKsxHUGydZ-G8uoJg7XP4Dx-GO27wzMwOJoiQQNzwGAgj-2l8cjVipMlPbKaob0VgH9Iv6aI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2410.63"><span class="s1">40:10</span></a>): It really needs to be a labor of love,</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/pBBAwh56kU1VDcaR4tpGOsmzWwWTrx6pL5mEecR7GV18mAjCEgN39riGhwrPlVUgfn8RiDQ4CI9gyfbpYzXZiSL5XRU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2414.41"><span class="s1">40:14</span></a>): Amen to that.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/hZETkac4kl-k9K_PnDQsNfK0MZKwmJt8pOeY0KRpBkh4F-7zchDI7elmVrTAFtxIYHLbMy8eWlraYq17Ll-d6kkCrXY?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2416.27"><span class="s1">40:16</span></a>): But if you stick with it, you may just succeed because obviously many, many writers do succeed.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/TjQPQIBIgSm4lIapFjK_tph0o1LjD3HX9sdF0Qx8eh8r0_7v_j8uzEfH2lmyHq50J_4sATYCDgPBqi1vbEuSsxtm_oI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2422.9"><span class="s1">40:22</span></a>): Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Well, that seems like a really good point to end on, that you can succeed if you stick with it and you try to be good at it, as opposed to just slapping something together and putting it out there. So Patrick, I just want to thank you so much for spending time with us today in talking about this.</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/1T_5T3kab-BmWKUUSGv6ThoJS_zJwjWaiK8cEpET2vpXj-8RJ2HKdEv1Cjw34XRqcaCW7ZMMtuqeSFhLC6KbCdBtjcU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2448.64"><span class="s1">40:48</span></a>): Well, I thought this was a good, interesting conversation and we talked about writing quite a bit as opposed to just talking about my books.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/KNmN3aL1PhtxwsYL8Oh5qPRnlZq-dppq3eNDwSSnletnllky99b9p-Jg0UkIOLb4_U2CZ80CacEiFDS0WXzU80P1yPM?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2460.61"><span class="s1">41:00</span></a>): That’s what I like to do,</p>
<p class="p1">Patrick (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/SVKIHY8gY1BPw02HG5qFPlsOzq5KKNli338aBEZx_ZiMkbkwxlmCB2oYak0Ee4uutbTRCH1YFVt68Hp6fqKhCQeYKLU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2463.34"><span class="s1">41:03</span></a>): And I really enjoyed as I’ve done lots of podcasts and I really enjoyed this one. I enjoyed talking about, focusing mostly on writing. I thought that was really refreshing.</p>
<p class="p1">Debbi (<a href="https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/-bQc2hJsYgwE7LNi2LzY0MqNDRDYXhZscNXqKd0hSUrrlWYv_GO9Y2g3LPcg8HuJF0BXe0Fngz0rnRZkUXPwbXNZXJU?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=2474.08"><span class="s1">41:14</span></a>): Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Maybe that’s why the podcast has become so popular that people just like talking about this stuff. I like that. That’s good. Excellent. I want to just thank Patrick again and extend my thanks to everyone listening, including my wonderful Patreon supporters. Thank you so much. Until next time, my guest will be Victoria Sellman then, take care and happy reading.</p>
<p>*****</p>
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