The ThoughtStretchers Podcast

Drew Perkins talks with education journalist and author Holly Korbey to explore the complex intersection of cognitive science and progressive pedagogy. While the "Reading Wars" often dominate headlines, Drew and Holly dig deeper into the underlying tensions between explicit, knowledge-rich instruction and the desire for student-led inquiry. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The heart of this conversation focuses on bridging the gap between human cognitive architecture and the ideals of inquiry-based learning. Holly and Drew discuss the "false dichotomy" that often pits these two approaches against each other. They explore how a deep foundation of background knowledge is actually the essential fuel that makes high-level inquiry possible. Holly shares insights into how schools are successfully integrating these worlds. They discuss "engineering the discovery," where teachers use explicit instruction to build the necessary schema, then step back to allow students to engage in meaningful inquiry. This episode serves as a roadmap for moving beyond tribalism and toward an integrated model of teaching. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:04:15] Introduction to Holly Korbey – From education reporting to researching civic education. [00:10:45] The Tension Between Science and Inquiry – Why cognitive science and progressive ideals are often viewed as being at odds. [00:16:30] Knowledge as the Engine of Inquiry – How building robust long-term memory allows for more complex questioning. [00:23:15] The "Both/And" Approach – Moving past tribal camps to find a balance between guidance and agency. [00:32:05] Schema Building in Early Years – Why content-rich instruction is vital for developing critical thinkers. [00:41:40] Navigating Controversial Topics – Using cognitive tools to facilitate deep inquiry into "hard history." [00:50:55] Reimagining Professional Learning – Shifting staff discussions from "tools" to pedagogical philosophy. [01:06:40] Practical Advice for Educators – How to integrate cognitive load principles into an inquiry classroom. [01:13:20] Closing Remarks – Where to follow Holly's work.

Drew Perkins welcomes back Ted Dintersmith to discuss the urgent need to move away from an education system obsessed with standardized testing and toward one that empowers students to do real, meaningful work. In his new book, Aftermath, and documentary, Multiple Choice, Dintersmith argues that our current system is "perfectly designed" to produce results that are increasingly irrelevant in an age of AI and automation. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Ted Dintersmith.com Book: Aftermath: The Life-Changing Math That Schools Won't Teach You Film: multiplechoicefilm.com The ThoughtStretchers (then TeachThought) Podcast Ep. 115 Let's Talk About What School Could Be (2018) Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. A significant portion of this conversation focuses on Ted's critique of the traditional math "treadmill." Drawing from his new book, Ted explores the "What and How" of teaching math. He argues that the current "What"—a heavy focus on symbolic manipulation and rote procedures—is largely obsolete. Regarding the "How," Ted shares inspiring examples of teachers who have moved toward Project-Based Learning kind of instruction. He describes classrooms where math is taught through real-world applications—like analyzing local economic trends—where learning happens through trial, error, and collaborative inquiry. By centering math on student agency, Ted argues we can move from "math trauma" to empowering students to solve complex, non-routine problems. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:04:15] Introduction to Ted Dintersmith – From venture capital to a 50-state tour investigating the future of education. [00:09:30] The Flaw in the System – Why our schools are designed for a world that no longer exists. [00:15:45] The Math Treadmill – Ted breaks down why our current math curriculum is a "filter" rather than a foundation. [00:22:10] The "What" of Math – Shifting from symbolic manipulation to data literacy and quantitative reasoning. [00:28:40] The "How" of Math – Using real-world problems to teach mathematical thinking instead of rote procedures. [00:35:15] The Impact of AI – How generative AI makes the "calculational" aspect of math a commodity. [00:43:05] Defining PEAK Learning – Breaking down Purpose, Essential Skills, Agency, and Knowledge. [00:52:20] Performance-Based Assessment – Moving toward portfolios and "defense of learning" models. [01:05:30] Advice for Parents – How to advocate for a more meaningful educational experience for your children. [01:12:45] Closing Remarks – Where to find Ted's books and follow his ongoing work in school reform.

Drew Perkins talks with David Geary, a cognitive developmental and evolutionary psychologist and Curator's Professor in the Department of Psychological Sciences at the University of Missouri. They dive into the foundations of evolutionary educational psychology, exploring how our evolutionary history shapes the way we learn today and why certain types of knowledge are fundamentally more difficult to acquire than others. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review wherever you're listening. The core of the conversation centers on Geary's groundbreaking distinction between biologically primary and biologically secondary knowledge. Primary knowledge includes skills like spoken language, social navigation, and basic folk physics, which humans have evolved to acquire effortlessly and instinctively. In contrast, secondary knowledge—such as reading, writing, and advanced mathematics—is a recent cultural invention that requires explicit instruction and sustained effort because our brains are not "wired" for it by default. Drew and David discuss the implications of this framework for modern classrooms, particularly why "discovery-based" learning models often struggle with secondary knowledge. Geary explains that while children naturally "play" to develop primary skills, the acquisition of secondary knowledge necessitates a different instructional architecture that respects the limits of working memory and the necessity of direct guidance. Finally, they explore the role of motivation and interest in learning. Geary highlights that while students are naturally motivated to learn primary skills, teachers must often "engineer" interest for secondary knowledge. The episode concludes with reflections on the "curse of knowledge" for experts and how an evolutionary lens can help educators better understand the struggle their students face when encountering abstract, non-intuitive academic content. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:04:12] Introduction to David Geary – Exploring his background in developmental and evolutionary psychology. [00:08:45] Defining Biologically Primary Knowledge – The skills we are born to learn, from language to social intuition. [00:12:30] Defining Biologically Secondary Knowledge – Why reading, writing, and math are "unnatural" and require schools. [00:18:15] The Role of Play – Distinguishing between play as a primary learning mechanism and its limitations for academic subjects. [00:25:50] Working Memory and Cognitive Load – How secondary knowledge strains our evolved cognitive architecture. [00:33:10] The Problem with Discovery Learning – Why students cannot simply "instinctively" find their way to complex secondary truths. [00:41:45] Engineering Interest – Strategies for motivating students to engage with content they aren't evolutionarily predisposed to care about. [00:52:20] The "Curse of Knowledge" – Why experts struggle to remember what it's like to be a novice learner. [01:05:30] Evolutionary Perspectives on Sex Differences – A brief look at Geary's research on developmental variations. [01:14:15] Closing Remarks – Where to find more of David Geary's work and upcoming publications.

Drew Perkins welcomes Patrick Graff, Senior Fellow at the American Federation for Children, to discuss his recent research analyzing 15 years of Florida's tax-credit scholarship program. Graff presents a compelling case for why "competition effects" may be significantly more cost-effective than simply increasing per-pupil spending for improving public school outcomes. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The episode explores the "competition effect"—the phenomenon where public schools improve when they face the threat of losing students to nearby private options. Graff's research found that public school students in high-competition areas in Florida were 120 to 140 days ahead in reading compared to those in low-competition areas. Most strikingly, he estimates that the competition route was 11 times more cost-effective than achieving the same gains through pure spending increases. Drew and Patrick also navigate the nuances of school choice, including the role of micro-schools, the impact on rural communities, and the critical need for minimum academic quality and transparency. They conclude by discussing the new federal Education Freedom Tax Credit and its potential to expand educational opportunities by bypassing traditional political constraints and driving resources directly to parents. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:07] Patrick Graff's Background – From teaching 3rd grade in Tampa to researching education policy through a sociological lens. [00:10:49] Teacher Training & Alternative Certification – Insights from his work with the University of Notre Dame's ACE program. [00:20:13] The "Competition Effect" Findings – How Florida's private school options led to significant learning gains for public school students. [00:24:06] Competition vs. Spending – A cost-effectiveness comparison showing competition far outperforming traditional budget increases. [00:28:11] Reallocating Resources – How the "voucher threat" encourages public school principals to prioritize instructional quality. [00:33:31] The Rise of Micro-Schools – How niche, small-scale schools attract both conservative and progressive educators. [00:41:35] The Limitations of High Spending – Why the $190 billion ESSER (pandemic) funding showed modest returns on academic instruction. [01:01:26] Schools and Civil Society – The historical and current role of private schools in community building and immigrant integration. [01:03:45] Impact on Rural Areas – Debunking myths about school choice "starving" rural schools and exploring new service-sharing models. [01:08:38] Ensuring Academic Quality – The importance of nationally norm-referenced testing and parent-facing transparency. [01:14:29] The Education Freedom Tax Credit – How the new federal tax credit could unlock billions for both private and public school services.

Drew Perkins talks with Valentina Devid to explore why the term "formative assessment" often fails in practice and how shifting the focus to Formative Action can lead to more sustainable, durable learning. Valentina shares her journey from a history teacher seeking "intellectual nourishment" to a professional development expert specializing in evidence-informed instructional coaching. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The conversation highlights a critical "lethal mutation" in education: teachers becoming too tool-focused (e.g., using mini-whiteboards) without a clear pedagogical goal. Valentina introduces her company's Five-Step Short Loop Model—Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify—designed to help teachers make intentional, real-time decisions based on student thinking. A major focus of the discussion is the Verify (Mirror Question) step, which Valentina describes as a "humbling experience" that ensures the teacher's corrective action actually worked before moving on. Drew and Valentina also tackle the challenge of sustainability in professional development, discussing how to support school leaders in making informed, durable implementation plans rather than relying on one-off keynotes. Finally, they explore the intersection of Inquiry-Based Learning and cognitive science, breaking down the "false dichotomy" between explicit instruction and student-led questioning. Valentina argues that while retrieval practice is essential for fluency, inquiry is a vital tool for sense-making and creating the retrieval cues necessary for long-term, durable knowledge. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:24] Valentina's Journey – From a "question-filled" history teacher to seeking rigor in teacher preparation. [00:13:49] Sustainable School Change – The mission of her PD company to move beyond one-off training days. [00:19:39] Assessment vs. Action – Why rebranding to "Formative Action" helps teachers focus on pedagogy rather than just tools. [00:31:22] The Five-Step Short Loop Model – A walkthrough of the Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify process. [00:38:08] The Power of the "Verify" Step – Closing the loop with mirror questions to ensure learning stuck. [00:44:48] The Three Strategies – Integrating the Short Loop, Sense for Quality (modeling), and Feedback Processes. [00:57:21] Training Teacher Perception – How to use "Pedagogical Road Maps" to anticipate student pitfalls. [01:00:34] The Implementation Gap – Why teachers sometimes grasp concepts but struggle with classroom techniques. [01:03:45] Inquiry as a Formative Tool – Using Project Zero Thinking Routines to make thinking visible for action. [01:12:14] Defining Durable Learning – Ensuring knowledge remains in long-term memory through intentional curriculum design. [01:18:00] The Craft of Teaching – Discerning when to provide less guidance to maximize "hard thinking".