The ThoughtStretchers Podcast

Drew Perkins talks with Brendan Lee, a primary school teacher, host of the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast, and advocate for evidence-informed pedagogy. Brendan shares his transition from an initial belief in unguided project-based learning to a more structured approach rooted in the Science of Reading and the instructional hierarchy. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Brendan explains the instructional hierarchy—a framework that identifies where a student sits on the continuum from novice to expert. He emphasizes that when students are in the "acquisition stage" (or frustration stage), they require high levels of scaffolding and explicit instruction. Without this foundation, students often become disengaged because they lack the prerequisite skills to tackle complex tasks. A central theme of the conversation is the critical role of fluency. Brendan argues that a lack of fluency in "tool skills"—like basic math facts or decoding—acts like "climbing a mountain with a bag of bricks on your back". By implementing just five minutes of daily, timed fluency practice, teachers can free up cognitive space for students to engage in higher-order thinking and discovery. Finally, Drew and Brendan discuss the "curse of knowledge" and why many inquiry-based approaches fail when they lack intentional design. They explore how "engineering the aha moment" requires a deep understanding of what students already know and the strategic fading of support as accuracy increases. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:15] Brendan's Background – From high school PE teacher and aspiring rugby pro to primary school educator. [00:12:06] The Shift in Thinking – Moving from project-based learning to recognizing the need for foundational knowledge in young learners. [00:17:29] Discovering the Science of Reading – Key resources and mentors that transformed Brendan's approach to literacy. [00:23:58] The Instructional Hierarchy – Breaking down the framework of acquisition, fluency, generalization, and adaptation. [00:33:32] Working Memory and Subskills – Why students struggle with multi-step problems when they lack fluency in basic components. [00:46:54] Tool, Component, and Composite Skills – Defining the building blocks of mastery. [01:01:52] Inquiry Before Explicit Instruction – Drew discusses using "framing questions" to create a "need to know". [01:06:41] The Curse of Knowledge – Why teachers struggle to adopt a novice perspective when designing tasks. [01:11:50] Behavior Analysis and Scaffolding – The importance of "contingency reduction" and fading prompts based on student accuracy. [01:16:50] Final Advice – Focus on small, incremental improvements rather than mastering everything at once.

Drew Perkins speaks with John Sweller, Emeritus Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of New South Wales, and Oliver Caviglioli, information designer and former special school principal, about the foundations and future of Cognitive Load Theory (CLT). As one of the most influential frameworks in modern education, CLT provides a scientific roadmap for understanding how human cognitive architecture dictates the way we should—and shouldn't—teach. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review wherever you're listening. The conversation begins with Sweller's essential distinction between biologically primary knowledge (skills like speech that we evolve to acquire naturally) and biologically secondary knowledge (academic subjects like reading and math that require explicit instruction). Sweller argues that because schools primarily deal with secondary knowledge, the limitations of working memory must be the starting point for any instructional design. A major theme of the episode is the concept of element interactivity. Sweller clarifies a common point of contention: while inquiry-based learning can be acceptable for low-complexity information, it is "catastrophic" for high-element interactivity content where working memory is easily overwhelmed. The guests also explore the "computational advantage" of diagrams, explaining how visual models can offload cognitive strain and make complex syntax more accessible to learners. Finally, the group discusses the "knowledge-rich" foundation required for higher-order thinking. Contrary to the idea that critical thinking is a generic skill to be practiced in a vacuum, Sweller and Caviglioli emphasize that creativity and analysis are only possible when a deep knowledge base is firmly established in long-term memory. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:03:26] Introduction to Human Cognitive Architecture – Why understanding how we learn is the necessary foundation for Cognitive Load Theory. [00:08:48] Primary vs. Secondary Knowledge – Defining why some skills are effortless while academic knowledge requires explicit teaching. [00:14:05] The Limits of Working Memory – Examining the "seven-item" rule and the 18-second duration of novel information. [00:17:44] The Power of Long-Term Memory – How stored knowledge transforms working memory from limited to virtually infinite. [00:32:56] Writing as External Symbolic Storage – Oliver Caviglioli on how writing allowed humanity to conquer transient information. [00:36:56] The Worked Example Effect – Why studying a solution is often more effective than solving the problem yourself. [00:43:33] The Transient Information Effect – The danger of "moving" information in technology and sports coaching. [00:51:46] Element Interactivity – The crucial distinction between low and high complexity that dictates teaching methods. [00:59:10] The Computational Advantage of Diagrams – Why diagrams are more than just "decorative" and how they reduce cognitive load. [01:08:04] Inquiry vs. Explicit Instruction – Sweller's warning on starting with inquiry for high-element interactivity tasks. [01:10:50] Knowledge as the Base for Critical Thinking

Drew Perkins talks with Brian Lamb, founder of Swivl, about the "Paradox of Edtech" and how modern digital interfaces are changing the way we learn. They discuss the shift from being "data-driven" to "data-informed," the importance of "decentering" for perspective-taking, and how AI can serve as a reflective thought partner for teachers rather than a replacement for human-led instruction. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Episode Overview: Brian Lamb and Drew Perkins explore why traditional edtech often creates a "gamified" version of reality that limits student growth. Brian explains how Swivl is pivoting toward tools that prioritize human reflection over screen time. They dive into the necessity of "decentering"—the cognitive ability to step outside one's own perspective—and how AI can be used to develop "uncomputable intelligence." The conversation also addresses the challenges of teacher preparation and how AI-supported feedback can help early-career teachers navigate the "messy reality" of the classroom. Timestamped Episode Timeline: [00:04:15] Brian's Background and the Founding of Swivl. [00:10:32] The Paradox of Edtech: Why more tech doesn't always equal more learning. [00:18:45] Gamification vs. Reality: The danger of reducing learning to "winning" a game. [00:25:12] Decentering: Why perspective-taking is a prerequisite for enlightenment. [00:32:50] Data-Driven vs. Data-Informed: Moving past rigid metrics in education. [00:41:05] Uncomputable Intelligence: The human skills AI cannot replicate. [00:52:18] Scaling Reflection: How Swivl's M2 tool supports teacher development. [00:58:40] Final Thoughts: The future of teacher-led, inquiry-based instruction.

Drew Perkins welcomes Emily Waugh and Gabriela Delgado de Fina, both Assistant Heads of School for the A+ World Academy. They discuss the academy's unique educational model: a 10-month voyage for 72 students aboard the Sorlandet, a fully rigged ship built in 1927. The conversation explores the challenges and rewards of a "school at sea," where academics, communal living, and maritime training converge. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Emily and Gabriela detail the academy's core philosophy and five goals for global leadership, which integrates academics with global studies, communal living, maritime training, and reflective learning. They share how students are required to participate in maritime watches, cleaning, and galley duties, fostering a deep sense of responsibility and grit. A mandatory course, "Self Systems and Society," serves as the anchor for these experiences, providing a space for students to reflect on conflict resolution and the unique challenges of sharing a living space with 72 peers. The discussion dives into the academy's current transition toward a more Project-Based Learning (PBL) curriculum. Gabriela and Emily candidly discuss the hurdles of implementing inquiry-based research, such as "Port Quests," in an environment with limited internet and library resources. They highlight the ongoing internal debate about balancing traditional knowledge acquisition with progressive skill development, illustrating what Drew calls a "knowledge-rich inquiry" model. Finally, they touch upon the essential nature of memorization in maritime life—where knowing the names and functions of hundreds of lines is a matter of safety—and the rigorous admissions process that seeks out curious students who are ready for the sacrifice and adventure of life at sea. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:03:43] Introductions and Roles – Emily and Gabriela share their journeys from teaching on the ship to their current land-based leadership roles. [00:08:02] Diverse Educational Backgrounds – A look at the progressive and traditional schooling experiences that shaped the guests' pedagogical perspectives. [00:11:39] The "My Five" Philosophy – Breaking down the five pillars of global leadership at A+ World Academy. [00:13:56] Life on the Sorlandet – Logistics of the 10-month voyage, the "top of the eight" Atlantic loop, and the requirement for every student to help operate the ship. [00:18:32] Connectivity and Crew Rotations – Managing limited internet access and the recent shift to rotating academic teams for sustainability. [00:21:43] Shifting to Project-Based Learning – Why the academy is moving away from traditional AP structures toward more integrated port-based projects. [00:28:37] The Knowledge vs. Skills Debate – Navigating the balance between progressive education and the need for content mastery. [00:38:15] Measuring Success Beyond Academics – The difficulty of quantifying qualitative growth in areas like communal living and resilience. [00:48:15] The Power of Functional Memorization – Why students must memorize maritime terms and how the "need to know" creates deep learning. [00:54:30] Student Profile and Motivation – What the academy looks for in applicants and why students voluntarily give up their phones.

Drew Perkins talks with investigative reporter Chris Papst about his book, Failure Factory: How Baltimore City Public Schools Deprive Taxpayers and Students of a Future . Papst, a reporter for Project Baltimore, shares his deep-dive into why one of the most funded school systems in America remains one of the lowest performing . From systemic grade manipulation to the misuse of school funds, this conversation explores the "end stages" of a failing public education system and serves as a critical warning for the rest of the country . Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Papst details the findings of his multi-year investigation, which uncovered "the 50% rule"—a policy preventing students from receiving grades below 50%, regardless of attendance or performance—and instances where principals directly ordered teachers to change failing grades to passing. He argues that the focus has shifted from educating children to acquiring funding and growing the power of the school system. The discussion also touches on the role of teachers' unions, the transition of teaching from a "profession to a job," and the emergence of "diploma mills" that exploit old state laws. Despite the systemic issues, Papst highlights "shining examples" like Cecil Elementary, where leadership has achieved high proficiency rates despite facing the same challenges as neighboring schools. Finally, the conversation looks at the national implications of these findings and the critical need for accountability in public education. Papst emphasizes that while the situation is dire, it is correctable through transparency and a refocus on student learning rather than adult-centered bureaucracy. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:05:37] Introducing Chris Papst – Investigative reporter for Project Baltimore and author of Failure Factory. [00:07:34] The "Failure Factory" Premise – Why Baltimore City Schools are highly funded but chronically low-performing. [00:10:37] Systemic Grade Inflation – Examining policies that allow students to graduate without basic literacy or attendance. [00:14:17] The 50% Rule – How automatic minimum grades mask educational failure and drive "social promotion." [00:18:44] Grade Changing as Fraud – A look at internal investigations where principals ordered mass grade changes. [00:23:03] Obstruction and Legal Battles – The story of suing the school system for public records and the judge's "willful violation" ruling. [00:28:27] Misuse of Public Funds – $30,000 on basketball tickets and other examples of administrative financial abuse. [00:31:55] Unions and the Professional Shift – Dr. Alvin Hathaway's perspective on when teaching became an "assembly-line job." [00:37:07] Examples of Success – Profiling Cecil Elementary and why successful models are rarely replicated. [00:40:32] Diploma Mills & State Standards – How "church-exempt" schools and lowered graduation requirements are devaluing diplomas. [00:46:54] Federal Grant Mismanagement – The case of Northwood Community Academy and the lack of federal oversight. [00:51:24] National Reaction – How the reporting went viral and reached the highest levels of government. [00:54:38] Closing Remarks – Where to find the book and how to get involved in local school accountability. Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review wherever you're listening.