The ThoughtStretchers Podcast

Drew Perkins welcomes Patrick Graff, Senior Fellow at the American Federation for Children, to discuss his recent research analyzing 15 years of Florida's tax-credit scholarship program. Graff presents a compelling case for why "competition effects" may be significantly more cost-effective than simply increasing per-pupil spending for improving public school outcomes. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The episode explores the "competition effect"—the phenomenon where public schools improve when they face the threat of losing students to nearby private options. Graff's research found that public school students in high-competition areas in Florida were 120 to 140 days ahead in reading compared to those in low-competition areas. Most strikingly, he estimates that the competition route was 11 times more cost-effective than achieving the same gains through pure spending increases. Drew and Patrick also navigate the nuances of school choice, including the role of micro-schools, the impact on rural communities, and the critical need for minimum academic quality and transparency. They conclude by discussing the new federal Education Freedom Tax Credit and its potential to expand educational opportunities by bypassing traditional political constraints and driving resources directly to parents. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:07] Patrick Graff's Background – From teaching 3rd grade in Tampa to researching education policy through a sociological lens. [00:10:49] Teacher Training & Alternative Certification – Insights from his work with the University of Notre Dame's ACE program. [00:20:13] The "Competition Effect" Findings – How Florida's private school options led to significant learning gains for public school students. [00:24:06] Competition vs. Spending – A cost-effectiveness comparison showing competition far outperforming traditional budget increases. [00:28:11] Reallocating Resources – How the "voucher threat" encourages public school principals to prioritize instructional quality. [00:33:31] The Rise of Micro-Schools – How niche, small-scale schools attract both conservative and progressive educators. [00:41:35] The Limitations of High Spending – Why the $190 billion ESSER (pandemic) funding showed modest returns on academic instruction. [01:01:26] Schools and Civil Society – The historical and current role of private schools in community building and immigrant integration. [01:03:45] Impact on Rural Areas – Debunking myths about school choice "starving" rural schools and exploring new service-sharing models. [01:08:38] Ensuring Academic Quality – The importance of nationally norm-referenced testing and parent-facing transparency. [01:14:29] The Education Freedom Tax Credit – How the new federal tax credit could unlock billions for both private and public school services.

Drew Perkins talks with Valentina Devid to explore why the term "formative assessment" often fails in practice and how shifting the focus to Formative Action can lead to more sustainable, durable learning. Valentina shares her journey from a history teacher seeking "intellectual nourishment" to a professional development expert specializing in evidence-informed instructional coaching. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The conversation highlights a critical "lethal mutation" in education: teachers becoming too tool-focused (e.g., using mini-whiteboards) without a clear pedagogical goal. Valentina introduces her company's Five-Step Short Loop Model—Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify—designed to help teachers make intentional, real-time decisions based on student thinking. A major focus of the discussion is the Verify (Mirror Question) step, which Valentina describes as a "humbling experience" that ensures the teacher's corrective action actually worked before moving on. Drew and Valentina also tackle the challenge of sustainability in professional development, discussing how to support school leaders in making informed, durable implementation plans rather than relying on one-off keynotes. Finally, they explore the intersection of Inquiry-Based Learning and cognitive science, breaking down the "false dichotomy" between explicit instruction and student-led questioning. Valentina argues that while retrieval practice is essential for fluency, inquiry is a vital tool for sense-making and creating the retrieval cues necessary for long-term, durable knowledge. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:24] Valentina's Journey – From a "question-filled" history teacher to seeking rigor in teacher preparation. [00:13:49] Sustainable School Change – The mission of her PD company to move beyond one-off training days. [00:19:39] Assessment vs. Action – Why rebranding to "Formative Action" helps teachers focus on pedagogy rather than just tools. [00:31:22] The Five-Step Short Loop Model – A walkthrough of the Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify process. [00:38:08] The Power of the "Verify" Step – Closing the loop with mirror questions to ensure learning stuck. [00:44:48] The Three Strategies – Integrating the Short Loop, Sense for Quality (modeling), and Feedback Processes. [00:57:21] Training Teacher Perception – How to use "Pedagogical Road Maps" to anticipate student pitfalls. [01:00:34] The Implementation Gap – Why teachers sometimes grasp concepts but struggle with classroom techniques. [01:03:45] Inquiry as a Formative Tool – Using Project Zero Thinking Routines to make thinking visible for action. [01:12:14] Defining Durable Learning – Ensuring knowledge remains in long-term memory through intentional curriculum design. [01:18:00] The Craft of Teaching – Discerning when to provide less guidance to maximize "hard thinking".

Drew Perkins talks with Brendan Lee, a primary school teacher, host of the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast, and advocate for evidence-informed pedagogy. Brendan shares his transition from an initial belief in unguided project-based learning to a more structured approach rooted in the Science of Reading and the instructional hierarchy. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Brendan explains the instructional hierarchy—a framework that identifies where a student sits on the continuum from novice to expert. He emphasizes that when students are in the "acquisition stage" (or frustration stage), they require high levels of scaffolding and explicit instruction. Without this foundation, students often become disengaged because they lack the prerequisite skills to tackle complex tasks. A central theme of the conversation is the critical role of fluency. Brendan argues that a lack of fluency in "tool skills"—like basic math facts or decoding—acts like "climbing a mountain with a bag of bricks on your back". By implementing just five minutes of daily, timed fluency practice, teachers can free up cognitive space for students to engage in higher-order thinking and discovery. Finally, Drew and Brendan discuss the "curse of knowledge" and why many inquiry-based approaches fail when they lack intentional design. They explore how "engineering the aha moment" requires a deep understanding of what students already know and the strategic fading of support as accuracy increases. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:15] Brendan's Background – From high school PE teacher and aspiring rugby pro to primary school educator. [00:12:06] The Shift in Thinking – Moving from project-based learning to recognizing the need for foundational knowledge in young learners. [00:17:29] Discovering the Science of Reading – Key resources and mentors that transformed Brendan's approach to literacy. [00:23:58] The Instructional Hierarchy – Breaking down the framework of acquisition, fluency, generalization, and adaptation. [00:33:32] Working Memory and Subskills – Why students struggle with multi-step problems when they lack fluency in basic components. [00:46:54] Tool, Component, and Composite Skills – Defining the building blocks of mastery. [01:01:52] Inquiry Before Explicit Instruction – Drew discusses using "framing questions" to create a "need to know". [01:06:41] The Curse of Knowledge – Why teachers struggle to adopt a novice perspective when designing tasks. [01:11:50] Behavior Analysis and Scaffolding – The importance of "contingency reduction" and fading prompts based on student accuracy. [01:16:50] Final Advice – Focus on small, incremental improvements rather than mastering everything at once.

Drew Perkins speaks with John Sweller, Emeritus Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of New South Wales, and Oliver Caviglioli, information designer and former special school principal, about the foundations and future of Cognitive Load Theory (CLT). As one of the most influential frameworks in modern education, CLT provides a scientific roadmap for understanding how human cognitive architecture dictates the way we should—and shouldn't—teach. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review wherever you're listening. The conversation begins with Sweller's essential distinction between biologically primary knowledge (skills like speech that we evolve to acquire naturally) and biologically secondary knowledge (academic subjects like reading and math that require explicit instruction). Sweller argues that because schools primarily deal with secondary knowledge, the limitations of working memory must be the starting point for any instructional design. A major theme of the episode is the concept of element interactivity. Sweller clarifies a common point of contention: while inquiry-based learning can be acceptable for low-complexity information, it is "catastrophic" for high-element interactivity content where working memory is easily overwhelmed. The guests also explore the "computational advantage" of diagrams, explaining how visual models can offload cognitive strain and make complex syntax more accessible to learners. Finally, the group discusses the "knowledge-rich" foundation required for higher-order thinking. Contrary to the idea that critical thinking is a generic skill to be practiced in a vacuum, Sweller and Caviglioli emphasize that creativity and analysis are only possible when a deep knowledge base is firmly established in long-term memory. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:03:26] Introduction to Human Cognitive Architecture – Why understanding how we learn is the necessary foundation for Cognitive Load Theory. [00:08:48] Primary vs. Secondary Knowledge – Defining why some skills are effortless while academic knowledge requires explicit teaching. [00:14:05] The Limits of Working Memory – Examining the "seven-item" rule and the 18-second duration of novel information. [00:17:44] The Power of Long-Term Memory – How stored knowledge transforms working memory from limited to virtually infinite. [00:32:56] Writing as External Symbolic Storage – Oliver Caviglioli on how writing allowed humanity to conquer transient information. [00:36:56] The Worked Example Effect – Why studying a solution is often more effective than solving the problem yourself. [00:43:33] The Transient Information Effect – The danger of "moving" information in technology and sports coaching. [00:51:46] Element Interactivity – The crucial distinction between low and high complexity that dictates teaching methods. [00:59:10] The Computational Advantage of Diagrams – Why diagrams are more than just "decorative" and how they reduce cognitive load. [01:08:04] Inquiry vs. Explicit Instruction – Sweller's warning on starting with inquiry for high-element interactivity tasks. [01:10:50] Knowledge as the Base for Critical Thinking

Drew Perkins talks with Brian Lamb, founder of Swivl, about the "Paradox of Edtech" and how modern digital interfaces are changing the way we learn. They discuss the shift from being "data-driven" to "data-informed," the importance of "decentering" for perspective-taking, and how AI can serve as a reflective thought partner for teachers rather than a replacement for human-led instruction. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at [email protected]. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Episode Overview: Brian Lamb and Drew Perkins explore why traditional edtech often creates a "gamified" version of reality that limits student growth. Brian explains how Swivl is pivoting toward tools that prioritize human reflection over screen time. They dive into the necessity of "decentering"—the cognitive ability to step outside one's own perspective—and how AI can be used to develop "uncomputable intelligence." The conversation also addresses the challenges of teacher preparation and how AI-supported feedback can help early-career teachers navigate the "messy reality" of the classroom. Timestamped Episode Timeline: [00:04:15] Brian's Background and the Founding of Swivl. [00:10:32] The Paradox of Edtech: Why more tech doesn't always equal more learning. [00:18:45] Gamification vs. Reality: The danger of reducing learning to "winning" a game. [00:25:12] Decentering: Why perspective-taking is a prerequisite for enlightenment. [00:32:50] Data-Driven vs. Data-Informed: Moving past rigid metrics in education. [00:41:05] Uncomputable Intelligence: The human skills AI cannot replicate. [00:52:18] Scaling Reflection: How Swivl's M2 tool supports teacher development. [00:58:40] Final Thoughts: The future of teacher-led, inquiry-based instruction.