Colleges and other providers have flooded the market with non-degree credentials in the past decade. But a recent analysis shows that only one in three credentials bring meaningful returns for graduates. Jeff and Michael talk with Matt Sigelman, president of the Burning Glass Institute, who is working to provide data to consumers and policymakers about the ROI of non-degree credentials. Given many of the returns of credentials come to those with traditional degrees already, the future of the degree and credentials are inextricably tied together. This episode is supported exclusively by Ascendium Education Group.Chapters0:00 - Intro1:21 - Creating a Way to Measure Real-Time Labor Market Data3:15 - Charting an Explosion of Non-Degree Credentials7:14 - Helping Consumers Find Which Credentials Have Value11:36 - What is the ROI of Non-Degree Credentials?12:51 - How Could the Data on These Credentials Be Improved?14:20 - The Challenge of Getting Data to Consumers18:38 - Will Better Data Push Providers to Improve Degree Offerings?20:52 - How Will Non-Degree Credentials Impact the Four-Year Degree?24:25 - Sponsor Break25:38 - Why Creating Measurement Tools Takes So Long27:49 - New Credentials Could Increase the Value of the Four-Year Degree30:02 - Providing Data Doesn’t Mean Students Will Use It35:06 - Addressing the ‘AI Paralysis' in Hiring39:53 - Lightning Round With Matt SigelmanRelevant Links“Counting Credentials 2025 Report,” by the nonprofit Credential Engine.Credential Value Index Navigator by The Burning Glass Institute.Education Quality Outcome Standards (EQOS), a collaboration of Jobs for the Future and The Burning Glass Institute.Connect with Michael Horn:Sign Up for the The Future of Education NewsletterWebsiteLinkedInX (Twitter)Threads  Connect with Jeff Selingo:Dream School: Finding the College That's Right for YouSign Up for the Next NewsletterWebsiteX (Twitter)ThreadsLinkedInConnect with Future U:TwitterYouTubeThreadsInstagramFacebookLinkedIn  Submit a question and if we answer it on air we'll send you Future U. swag!Sign up for Future U. emails to get special updates and behind-the-scenes content.