Everyday Conversations on Race

What happens when curiosity replaces fear? In this powerful and honest conversation, Simma Lieberman and Dr. Julie Pham, author of "7 Forms of Respect: A Guide to Transforming Your Communication and Relationships at Work", explore how curiosity helps us talk about race, identity, and respect without shame or defensiveness. They remind us that inclusion begins with wonder—and that respect isn't fixed, it's alive.

Simma and Dr. Julie Pham dive into the idea of curiosity as a practice—a mindset we can bring to every interaction. They discuss how we each hold multiple identities, why respect feels different to everyone, and how the "rubber band rule" teaches self-awareness and boundaries. Together, they model how curiosity—not cancellation—creates space for growth, empathy, and laughter.

Dr. Pham shares her journey from running her family's Vietnamese newspaper in Seattle to becoming an expert on curiosity-based inclusion. Simma reflects on her experiences as a Bronx-raised Jewish woman building bridges across race and culture. Their exchange reminds listeners that real connection begins when we listen to understand, not to judge.

[00:10:00 — The Practice of Curiosity] Julie describes curiosity as a practice, not a trait, requiring awareness and humility. They discuss how fear of being wrong blocks learning and how curiosity turns awkward moments into opportunities for respect.

[00:15:00 — Respect as Relationship, Not Rule] They unpack how "respect" looks different across people and cultures. Julie introduces her framework from Seven Forms of Respect and shares how she helps organizations talk openly about what respect means to them.

[00:20:00 — Cultural Assumptions and Adaptation] Simma and Julie discuss regional and cultural communication styles—New York directness vs. West Coast politeness—and how adapting behavior is a form of respect, not inauthenticity.

[00:25:00 — Curiosity vs. Cancel Culture] Simma raises the issue of "you should know" attitudes in DEI work. Julie explains why she rejects cancel culture and instead promotes dialogue and forgiveness as pathways to inclusion.

[00:30:00 — The Rubber Band Rule] Julie explains her Rubber Band Rule: we all stretch for others, but when we over-stretch, we snap. Respect, she says, is relative, contextual, and dynamic—it shifts with relationships, workplaces, and personal growth.

[00:35:00 — Learning from Difference] Simma shares stories from her life and work about learning from cross-cultural friendships and experiences in holistic health. Both reflect on how curiosity helped them challenge stereotypes and assumptions.

[00:40:00 — Evolving Through Curiosity] They discuss how curiosity helps us evolve—our identities, habits, and relationships are always changing. Julie highlights that curiosity is lifelong learning, not a one-time skill.

[00:45:00 — From Outrage to Understanding] Julie and Simma emphasize moving beyond outrage to curiosity. They share stories about being misjudged and how asking questions transforms conflict into connection.

[00:48:00 — Closing Reflections: Self-Respect and Connection] Julie closes with her final message: respect isn't fixed; it changes with context. Simma thanks her for the powerful conversation, reiterates the importance of curiosity, and invites listeners to stay engaged.

Guest Bio

How do we close the health gap in Black communities? In this episode, Simma Lieberman ("The Inclusionist") talks with bEHR Health founder Kwame Terra about the urgent need for health equity, the power of community, and the real stories behind the statistics. From breaking world records to building a movement, this conversation will challenge, inspire, and empower you.

Timestamps & Key Segments:00:00 – Introduction: Why Black Health Matters 02:15 – Meet Kwame Terra: From Runner to Health Equity Leader 07:30 – The Shocking Truth About Health Disparities 15:00 – bEHR Health: Using Data and Community to Drive Change 22:45 – Real Stories: Walking Clubs, World Records, and Transformation 31:10 – Food, Motivation, and Changing Habits 38:00 – The Power of Community Support 45:20 – How You Can Get Involved and Make a Difference 50:00 – Closing Thoughts: Hope, Action, and the Future of Black Health

Why Listen?

● Learn what's really behind the life expectancy gap—and what you can do about it.

● Hear how bEHR Health is helping people walk off medication and reclaim their lives.

● Get practical tips for building healthy habits and finding support.

● Be part of a movement that's changing the narrative on Black health.

Guest Bio:Kwame Terra is the founder and CEO of bEHR Health, a platform dedicated to closing the health gap in Black communities through technology, education, and collective action. A former collegiate runner and passionate advocate for health equity, Kwame is on a mission to help everyone live longer, healthier lives.

How Two Legal Changemakers Are Redefining Leadership, Collaboration, and Racial Justice in a Divided World

In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman is joined by Professor Susan Sturm of Columbia Law School, and community change agent Richard Gray of the Center for Collaborative Education. These longtime collaborators talk candidly about their friendship across race, the evolution of their leadership work, and how confronting racism means more than just talking about it.

They explore how white people can genuinely show up in racial justice work, the difference between performative allyship and real connection, and the need for inclusive institutional change—especially when that change is under attack. Together, they break down the core themes from Susan's book What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions.

You'll hear stories of personal transformation, resistance against performative politics, and lessons in building multiracial and multigenerational coalitions. Whether you're an advocate, educator, or someone struggling with how to take meaningful action, this conversation is for you.

Timestamps: 1:10 – Why these conversations matter now more than ever 3:45 – Meet Professor Susan Sturm and Richard Gray 8:10 – How Susan and Richard met and started collaborating 14:30 – Real friendship across race: beyond credentials 20:10 – Susan on being a white person who "meant well" but needed to unlearn 26:45 – Richard on redefining what it means to be a lawyer for social justice 33:00 – "Hanging out while white" — how not to be awkward or performative 36:20 – What What Might Be really means, and how to act in paradox 43:00 – Institutions, white comfort, and what transformation should look like 52:00 – Micro-spaces of justice: how change happens when the law falls short 59:40 – What each of us can do now (no matter who we are)

Guest Information:

Susan Sturm is the George M. Jaffin Professor of Law & Social Responsibility at Columbia Law School and the Founding Director of the Center for Institutional and Social Change. Her new book, What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions, explores the paradoxes built into anti-racism work and how to turn them into drivers of learning and change. It provides strategies for staying engaged in this work amidst the challenging conditions we now face.

Richard Gray serves as director of AISR's Community Organizing & Engagement team. His work includes providing strategic support on community organizing and engagement to community and school reform organizations in cities across the country.

He also directs AISR's Center for Education Organizing, which helps expand the power of education organizing through building strategic alliances among organizations and with strategic partners such as teachers' unions, reform support organizations, civil rights organizations, and research and policy institutes.

In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, is joined by two incredible global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion experts: Michaël Stuber, the European DEI Engineer, and Nene Molefi, founder of Mandate Molefi HR Consultants in South Africa. While the focus of this episode is on the global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion landscape, it's also a deeply personal conversation about their journeys, the challenges they've faced, and how their backgrounds have shaped their approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion.

As we explore how Diversity, Equity and Inclusion initiatives differ across countries, Michaël and Nene share their unique personal experiences—from Michaël's upbringing in a family where cultural diversity was the norm, to Nene's harrowing memories of growing up in the midst of apartheid in South Africa. These personal stories are woven into the conversation, bringing a human element to the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion discussion that goes beyond theories and strategies.

Detailed Time Stamps:

• [00:00] Introduction to Simma and the guests
• [04:30] Michael Stuber shares how his diverse upbringing shaped his perspective on DEI
• [07:00] Nene talks about growing up during apartheid in South Africa and the 1976 uprisings
• [12:00] The impact of apartheid on Nene's personal and professional journey
• [16:00] Michaël's early experiences with Diversity, Equity and Inclusion work and the importance of a European context
• [21:45] The role of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in shaping Michaël's understanding of DEI
• [26:30] Nene discusses her experience in developing South Africa's Employment Equity Act and its legacy
• [32:15] Challenges and growth in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion work across South Africa and Europe
• [37:00] Michaël reflects on the global DEI landscape and adapting U.S.-based DEI concepts for Europe
• [42:00] The importance of systemic change in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion: addressing structures, not just attitudes
• [47:15] Current challenges in DEI: nationalistic movements and the regression of progress
• [52:30] The personal impact of the global political climate on DEI work
• [57:00] Nene and Michaël discuss the shifting attitudes towards Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, and the need for integrity and truth-telling
• [01:02:30] Closing remarks: The importance of global perspectives in DEI and continuing the conversation

This isn't just about Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion; it's about understanding the deep-rooted histories that influence how we work, relate, and view one another today. Michaël and Nene's personal stories and shared wisdom will help you see Diversity, Equity and Inclusion not just as a corporate or political issue, but a human one.

Key Takeaways:

1. Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is about more than just policies—it's about understanding personal and cultural histories that shape our worldviews.
2. Real change in DEI requires confronting deep-rooted systems of oppression, as demonstrated by Nene's experience in apartheid and Michaël's work in Europe.
3. Effective DEI strategies must be rooted in listening, respect, and understanding of the complex histories that shape people's lives.

Guest Information:

Michael Stuber is The European D&I Engineer – a brand based on his evidence-based yet activist-driven and strategically organized approach DEI. In the late 1990s, he initiated the first EMEA-based DE&I research to build a European perspective. As an advisor to US multinationals, he helped adapt American D&I strategies to EMEA realities. His Propelling Performance Principle makes inclusiveness a consistent business contribution, while his models of unconscious biases or inclusive leadership create traction across industries.

Stuber has since worked on four continents, authored five books, and hosts one of the world's largest D&I KnowledgeBlogs, the diversitymine.eu, with some 2,000 articles. He co-created Germany's first National anti-racism program, helped locate survivors for the HVAP, and supported major US firms in redesigning Racial Equity or Management Training for EMEA. His approach bridges research, strategy and transformation to embed DE&I in business, leadership and culture.

Nene Molefi is a globally recognized consultant, keynote speaker, coach and author with over 25 years of experience shaping leadership, organizational transformation, and diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) across industries. Born and raised in Soweto, Johannesburg, she has built an esteemed career advocating for values-driven leadership, high-performing teams, and systemic change in organizations worldwide.

As the Founder and CEO of Mandate Molefi HR Consultants, Nene has advised multinational corporations, governments, and nonprofit organizations. Her expertise spans Whole System Culture Change, Executive Leadership Development, DEI Strategy and High-Stakes Facilitation—guiding courageous, results-driven conversations that tackle complex organizational and societal challenges. She has led and steered intricate, long-term cultural transformation and leadership initiatives, working with multi-disciplinary and specialist teams.