In More and More and More, Jean-Baptiste Fressoz shows that the human history of energy is one of accumulation, not substitution. Here, he talks to reporter Adam Lowenstein about how the "energy transition" frame got so entrenched, why clean-energy innovation is not the same thing as decarbonization, how the fossil fuel industry helped launder pipe dreams of dysfunctional technologies into mainstream climate “solutions”, and much more (and more and more).  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.