Notice That

In this episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, we sit down with internationally respected clinician, trainer, and author Deb Wesselmann to explore the powerful intersection of EMDR therapy, attachment wounds, childhood trauma, parenting, and relational healing. Deb shares her decades of experience integrating attachment theory with EMDR therapy, including practical ways therapists can work with children, parents, families, and adults carrying unresolved developmental trauma. We discuss:Why attachment trauma often lives beneath symptomsHow EMDR can help heal early relational woundsWorking with children using EMDRFamily therapy + EMDR integrationResourcing trust, safety, and connectionParents as part of the healing processParts work / ego states in EMDRHow therapists become corrective emotional experiencesWhy the therapeutic relationship still matters deeply in trauma workDeb also shares stories from training with Francine Shapiro in the early days of EMDR and how the field has evolved over time. If you're an EMDR therapist, trauma therapist, counselor, psychologist, or simply fascinated by healing relationships, this conversation is packed with wisdom. Learn more about Deb Wesselmann through her website: https://debrawesselmann.com/ Learn more about training and professional development opportunities with Beyond Healing through our website: connectbeyondhealing.com DETAILED SHOW NOTES Introduction Bridger and Jen open the episode by discussing their upcoming EMDR Basic Trainings, hybrid learning model, consultation opportunities, and their emphasis on relationship-centered EMDR training. Meet Deb Wesselmann Deb shares her background as:Former school teacherTherapist for 35+ yearsEMDR clinician since the mid-1990sCo-founder of the Attachment and Trauma Center in NebraskaLongtime specialist in attachment, trauma, adoption, children, and family healingHer journey into therapy began through witnessing the unmet emotional needs of children in school settings. Early EMDR with Francine Shapiro Deb reflects on training directly with Francine Shapiro when EMDR was still considered “experimental.” She discusses:Why she was initially skepticalHer powerful practicum experienceHow EMDR differed from hypnosisWhy EMDR felt safer, gentler, and more effective for trauma treatmentWhy Attachment and EMDR Fit So Well Deb explains how EMDR naturally supports attachment healing because it helps process:mistrustabandonment woundsrelational fearunresolved griefabuse memoriesdevelopmental traumaShe emphasizes that attachment styles are shaped through experience—not fixed identity. What Didn’t Happen Matters Too One of the most powerful moments of the episode: Healing is not only about processing what happened to clients... It is also about grieving and repairing what never happened:protectionsoothingattunementnurturesafetyemotional co-regulationParts Work / Ego States in EMDR Deb and the hosts discuss:ego statesparts languagemultiplicity of selfinternalized child partswounded protector partsThey explore how parts work deepens EMDR treatment, especially with complex trauma. Deb’s Integrative Family EMDR Model Deb outlines her step-by-step model for working with children and families: Phase 1: Parent psychoeducation and case conceptualization Helping parents understand:“This is not a bad child.”“This is a wounded child in survival mode.”Phase 2: Family preparation and regulation work Including:body regulation exerciseswindow of tolerance educationplayful nervous system workemotional literacyPhase 3: Attachment-focused EMDR resourcing Examples:parent-child connection exercisesmessages of lovesoothing touchbilateral stimulation paired with relational safetyhealing the “little one inside”When Parents Are the Barrier Deb speaks honestly about difficult cases where caregivers are emotionally unsafe, resistant, or abusive. The hosts discuss how therapists may need to pivot toward:supporting the child directlygrief workcoping strategiesbecoming a safe relational templateThe Therapist as Attachment Resource A major theme of the conversation: The therapeutic relationship itself becomes healing data. Bridger discusses inviting clients to: “Take my voice with you.” Meaning:internalize compassionremember safetyborrow regulationcarry supportive relational memory into distressThis is a beautiful section for therapists working with complex trauma. Why This Episode Matters This conversation reminds us that EMDR is not merely protocol. It is also:relationaldevelopmentalembodiedattachment-informeddeeply human See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this return to our Back to Basics series, we’re diving into one of the most misunderstood—and often over-scripted—parts of EMDR therapy: interweaves. If you were trained to think of interweaves as something you “pull out of a list” when a client gets stuck, you’re not alone. But what if interweaves aren’t about saying the right thing… and instead about understanding what the system needs next? In this episode, we explore:What interweaves are actually doing in the brain and nervous systemWhy “cognitive interweaves” are only part of the storyHow stuckness in EMDR often reflects deeper relational and developmental patternsThe difference between interrupting processing vs. supporting movementHow to move from rigid scripts to relational, somatic, and intuitive interweavesWhy some interweaves increase distress—and why that’s not a failure We walk through core categories from Francine Shapiro's EMDR: Basic Principles, Protocols, and Procedures (responsibility, safety, and choice), while also expanding into a more integrative framework that includes:Somatic interweavesAffective interweavesRelational and resource-based interweaves You’ll also hear real clinical reflections on:Why “I’m confused…” doesn’t always landHow metaphor, imagery, and even humor can unlock stuck processingWhen to stay out of the way… and when your presence matters most Ultimately, this conversation reframes interweaves not as a technique—but as a relational intervention grounded in attunement, timing, and case conceptualization. If you’ve ever found yourself thinking: “What do I say right now?” This episode will help you shift toward: “What does my client’s system need right now?” See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

What happens when one of the most meaningful seasons of life—pregnancy and early parenthood—collides with trauma, grief, and attachment wounds? In this episode of Notice That, we sit down with perinatal mental health specialist Bethany Warren to explore how EMDR therapy can be used safely and effectively with pregnant and postpartum clients—and why so many clinicians have been taught otherwise. Together, we unpack:The most common myths about EMDR in pregnancy (and what the research actually says)Why “just resourcing” may unintentionally limit healingHow attachment wounds, identity shifts, and grief show up in the perinatal periodThe difference between trauma and the deeper layers of lossHow EMDR helps untangle both present-day distress and long-standing relational patterns We also explore the emotional reality of becoming a parent—the unexpected grief, the vulnerability of attachment, and the ways our own histories come alive in this stage of life. This conversation is both clinically rich and deeply human—an invitation to rethink how we approach trauma, healing, and development in one of the most transformative seasons of life. Whether you’re an EMDR clinician or simply someone navigating parenthood, this episode offers a powerful lens into what it means to heal while becoming. Connect with Bethany Warren:Website: https://bethanywarrenlcsw.com/Perinatal EMDR Training (HAP): https://www.traumarecoveryhap.org/course/warren-perinatal-clients See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Becoming a parent is often described as one of life’s most joyful milestones. But what happens psychologically, relationally, and neurologically during the transition into parenthood is far more complex — and far less discussed — than many clinicians realize. In this episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, Bridger and Jen sit down with psychologist and EMDR consultant Dr. Nirit Gordon to explore the profound developmental, attachment-based, and trauma-related shifts that occur during the perinatal period. Drawing from feminist theory, attachment research, evolutionary anthropology, and clinical EMDR practice, this conversation reframes the transition to parenthood as a sensitive developmental stage comparable to adolescence — a time marked by identity reorganization, heightened emotional activation, relational stress, and the resurfacing of unresolved attachment wounds. Together, we explore: Why perinatal mental health is one of the most under-recognized areas in trauma treatment How attachment memories and developmental trauma networks reactivate during pregnancy and early parenting The concept of matrescence and its implications for case conceptualization Why fathers and partners undergo neurobiological and hormonal shifts during early parenting How modern parenting culture conflicts with evolutionary caregiving needs The myth of constant parental attunement and what attachment research actually shows Birth trauma and systemic gaps in trauma-informed obstetric care Using babies as resources in EMDR therapy The clinical importance of including perinatal experiences in Phase 1 history taking How therapists can support identity transformation during early parenthood This episode invites clinicians to expand their understanding of trauma, development, and relational memory — and to consider the perinatal period not simply as a life event, but as a critical neurobiological and psychological window for therapeutic intervention. Whether you work directly with parents or not, this conversation offers a powerful lens for understanding how attachment, trauma, and identity evolve across the lifespan. To follow Nirit's work, check out her website at niritgordonphd.com and her training offerings at touchstoneinstitute.org See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

What happens when therapy stops being about techniques — and starts becoming about you? In this deeply reflective episode of Notice That, Bridger and Jen are joined by therapist and trainer Jessica Downs for an intimate conversation exploring the inner life of therapists, professional identity, and the personal work that inevitably emerges beneath clinical practice. Together, they explore the hidden motivations that draw people into helping professions, the illusion of the “next training” as a solution to therapeutic stuckness, and the moment many therapists encounter when professional development turns into personal reckoning. This episode moves beyond theory into experience, as Jessica guides a live experiential exercise inviting listeners to connect with younger parts of themselves — demonstrating how EMDR principles, ego state work, and imagination can foster integration and self-compassion. Themes explored include:Why therapists often chase new modalities or trainingsThe relationship between burnout and unresolved inner dynamicsCountertransference and the therapist’s personal historyEgo states and parts work through an EMDR lensThe role of suffering in human experienceIndividuation, identity, and professional evolutionHealing as wholeness rather than symptom eliminationThis conversation is slower, more inward, and intentionally reflective — an invitation to pause, notice, and reconnect with the parts of yourself that brought you into this work in the first place. In This Episode, We DiscussThe unconscious reasons therapists become therapistsWhen “helping people” isn’t the whole storyCapitalism, continuing education culture, and therapist insecurityInternal imagery and symbolic work in healingParenting, therapy, and mirrors of the selfJessica’s “spotlighting” ego state exercise (follow along included)The La Loba myth and reclaiming lost parts of self About Our Guest — Jessica Downs Jessica Downs is a trauma therapist, EMDR clinician, and co-founder of Iris Training Collective. Her work integrates EMDR, ego state approaches, symbolism, and depth psychology to help therapists reconnect with authenticity and wholeness in both personal and professional development. Resources & LinksIris Training CollectiveLive Well Counseling Center (Grand Junction, CO)Notice That PodcastBeyond Healing trainings and consultation opportunities See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.