Thinkydoers®

What if your different wiring isn't something to overcome—it's the foundation for building a business that actually works for you?

For years, many neurodivergent professionals have spent enormous energy trying to decode unspoken workplace expectations, masking their natural tendencies, and wondering why traditional employment feels so exhausting. But what happens when we embrace the brains we've got instead of trying to mind-read what's expected of us, and start building businesses that work WITH our wiring instead of against it?

In this milestone 50th episode of Thinkydoers, Sara sits down with serial entrepreneur Peter Shankman—creator of five startups with three exits, founder of Help a Reporter Out (now Source of Sources), and co-founder of Mental Capital Consulting. Peter shares his journey from spending decades believing something was wrong with him to building multiple successful companies powered by his ADHD brain.

Whether you're a shy introvert wondering how to gain visibility, a neurodivergent professional considering entrepreneurship, or a leader trying to understand how to build truly neuroinclusive workplaces, this conversation will challenge everything you thought you knew about "fitting in."

Episode Highlights:

• How accidentally falling into PR and media led Peter to discover that the only way he could truly thrive was by making his own rules.
• Why decades of being told you’re “disruptive” can feel like a burden—and how unlearning that narrative helped Peter see his neurodivergent brain as an asset, not a liability.
• Media visibility for introverts: why letting press coverage do the talking can be a game-changer when self-promotion feels impossible.
• What every company should understand about neurodiversity—and why resistance to change is holding workplaces back.
• Don’t hide your different brain: Peter’s powerful message about embracing neurodiversity without shame—it doesn’t have to define your whole identity, but it shouldn’t be your secret either.

Key Concepts Explored:

• Accidental career in PR and media: How starting out in an AOL chatroom led Peter to discover that he thrives when he creates his own rules.
• Entrepreneurship as a fit for neurodivergent brains: Why traditional employment can feel restrictive and self-employment allows your wiring to become an asset.
• The “broken” narrative: Unlearning decades of being told you’re disruptive and embracing neurodivergence as a benefit rather than a liability.
• Media visibility for introverts: How earned media and press coverage can do the talking for you when self-promotion feels impossible.
• Building neuroinclusive workplaces: Why companies resist change and what they can gain by embracing employees who think differently.
• Don’t hide your different brain: Embracing neurodiversity without shame—it doesn’t have to be your entire identity, but it shouldn’t be your secret either.
• Creating your own sandbox: Designing your environment and work to meet your unique strengths and needs.

Common Questions Answered:

• How can I turn neurodivergence into an asset in my career or business?
• Why do traditional workplaces often feel limiting or frustrating for neurodivergent people?
• How can media visibility help introverts or high-expertise thinkers get noticed without self-promotion?
• What does it take to create a neuroinclusive workplace that supports different ways of thinking?
• How do I embrace my “different brain” without shame or feeling like it defines me?

Notable Quotes:

"If you didn’t know what to do, fake it and figure it out" – Peter Shankman [00:04:00]

"The majority of us have been told our whole lives that we’re broken. It took me 20 years to realize I could make my brain work for me." – Peter Shankman [00:06:00]

"Media visibility does the talking for you. You don’t have to say you’re great—let the world see it through others." – Peter Shankman [00:07:00]

"Companies don’t realize the benefit of allowing people who think differently to lead—they resist change, but that’s where growth happens." – Peter Shankman [00:08:00]

"Don’t hide your different brain. You don’t have to make it the centerpiece of everything you do, but don’t hide it either." – Peter Shankman [00:11:00]

"You can embrace your gifts and think differently, and that alone can make your life and work richer." – Peter Shankman [00:11:00]

Chapters:

[00:00:00] Introduction: Celebrating the 50th episode and welcome to Peter Shankman

[00:01:00] Guest Introduction: Peter’s background as a five-time entrepreneur, author, and co-founder of Mental Capital Consulting

[00:03:00] Early Career: How AOL and accidental opportunities shaped Peter’s path

[00:04:00] Entrepreneurship Journey: Discovering he could only thrive by making his own rules

[00:05:00] Neurodivergence as an Asset: Turning ADHD and different wiring into a career advantage

[00:07:00] Media Visibility for Introverts: How press coverage can do the talking for you

[00:08:00] Building Neuroinclusive Workplaces: What companies should know about embracing different thinkers

[00:09:00] Overcoming Resistance: Helping leaders accept neurodiverse approaches and change

[00:11:00] Don’t Hide Your Different Brain: Embracing neurodiversity without shame

[00:12:00] Connect with Peter: Where to find him online, including shankman.com, Instagram, Threads, and Faster Than Normal podcast

Guest Information:

Peter Shankman is a five-time entrepreneur, author, and founder of multiple companies, including HARO (Help A Reporter Out) and Source of Sources (SOS), platforms that connect journalists with sources worldwide. He is also the co-founder of Mental Capital Consulting, helping companies attract, hire, and retain neurodivergent employees while creating neuroinclusive workplaces.

Peter has delivered thousands of keynotes on customer experience, entrepreneurship, and neurodiversity. Known for his practical advice and “sandbox” approach, he empowers entrepreneurs, introverts, and strategically wired thinkers to embrace their unique strengths, gain visibility through media, and design careers and workplaces that fit their brains.

He is also the host of the podcast Faster Than Normal, where he explores how ADHD and other different wiring can be harnessed as an advantage in life and business.

Connect with Peter:

Tired of building your business or career for the "fantasy version" of yourself?

You're not alone. Many of us leave corporate environments that don't fit our neurodivergent, introverted, or strategically-wired brains, only to recreate the same extractive patterns in our own businesses. But what if there was another way?

In this episode, I sit down with Maggie Patterson, creator of BS-Free Business and author of "Staying Solo," to explore why so much business advice isn't designed for businesses like yours. We dive into Maggie's "real-life rule" — if it doesn't work for your real life (with all your caregiving responsibilities, mental health considerations, and actual capacity constraints), it doesn't work in your business.

Discover why being strategically wired can be a detriment as an employee but an asset as a solo business owner, learn how to build around your actual capacity instead of your maximum capacity, and find out why the best work you'll do might just be the work that feels easy.

Episode Highlights:

• Why so much small business advice recreates the same toxic patterns we tried to leave behind in corporate life
• How manipulative marketing tactics—like income claims and pain-point selling—harm solo business owners
• Why neurodivergent and introverted people often thrive as entrepreneurs after struggling in traditional workplaces
• The “real-life rule”: building your business around actual capacity, not fantasy capacity
• How being strategically wired can feel like a liability in corporate life but becomes a superpower in solo business
• Why the most sustainable businesses are often the simplest—lean, drama-free, and built to last

Key Concepts Explored:

• The "real-life rule": building business around actual capacity and constraints rather than fantasy versions of ourselves
• The neurodivergent advantage in solo business: creating accommodations for yourself that corporate environments can't provide
• Strategic brain blindness: how strategically-wired people undervalue their most marketable assets
• The employee detriment of strategic thinking: why strategic minds struggle in corporate but thrive as entrepreneurs
• The paradox of easy work: why the highest-value, most enjoyable work should feel effortless when you're truly skilled
• Income claim marketing and pain point manipulation vs. empathetic connection in business communication
• Lesser of evils decision-making: sustainable business choices for people with anxiety, ADHD, and mental health challenges
• Simplicity as competitive advantage: lean operations, minimal services, and building incrementally rather than perfectly
• Right-sizing dreams and expectations to prevent business-induced breakdown during caregiving and life challenges
• Neurodivergent entrepreneurship as affirmation: self-employment as refuge for those who don't fit traditional work culture

Common Questions Answered:

• How can I build a business that works with my ADHD/anxiety/neurodivergence?
• Why do I struggle with traditional business advice?
• Is self-employment viable for introverts and strategic thinkers?
• How do I build for my real capacity instead of my maximum capacity?
• Why does my strategic thinking feel undervalued in corporate environments?

Notable Quotes:

"So much of online business is built on this fantasy version of yourself—someone with endless time, endless energy, endless capacity. And it just doesn’t exist." – Maggie Patterson [00:05:00]

"We left corporate because it didn’t fit—but then we build businesses that are just as extractive, just as harmful, just as unsustainable." – Maggie Patterson [00:07:00]

"If it doesn’t work in your real life—with your caregiving, your mental health, your actual capacity—it doesn’t work in your business." – Maggie Patterson [00:11:00]

"There’s this constant push to build a business around your maximum capacity. But what if we built around our actual capacity instead?" – Maggie Patterson [00:14:00]

"Being strategically wired can feel like a liability as an employee—but as a solo business owner, it’s your superpower." – Maggie Patterson [00:18:00]

"The best work you’ll ever do might just be the work that feels easy." – Maggie Patterson [00:21:00]

"So much business advice doesn’t just not fit—it actually makes us feel like we’re failing at someone else’s game." – Sara Lobkovich [00:25:00]

"The most sustainable businesses are boring. They’re lean, drama-free, and built to last." – Maggie Patterson [00:28:00]

"We need to stop glorifying hustle and start glorifying sustainability." – Maggie Patterson [00:30:00]

Chapters:

[00:00:00] Introduction: Welcome to Thinkydoers and introduction to Maggie Patterson

[00:03:00] Guest Introduction: Maggie's background and BS-Free Business approach

[00:05:00] Bad Business Advice: Why most advice replicates toxic corporate patterns

[00:07:00] Marketing Deception: Income claims and manipulative pain point tactics

[00:09:00] Corporate Struggles: Why introverts and neurodivergent people struggle in traditional workplaces

[00:11:00] Managing Anxiety: Practical approaches for business owners with mental health challenges

[00:12:00] The Real-Life Rule: Building business around actual capacity, not fantasy capacity

[00:16:00] Easy Work Philosophy: Why the best work should feel easy

[00:17:00] Strategic Wiring: How strategic thinkers can transition from employee to entrepreneur

[00:21:00] Simple Business: Why lean and boring businesses work better

[00:23:00] Neurodivergent Entrepreneurs: Affirmation for those who don't fit traditional work culture

[00:25:00] Connect with Maggie: Where to find her work and resources

Guest Information:

• [Coming soon!]

Connect with Maggie:

What if the critics and naysayers aren't a problem—but proof you're finally changing something that matters?

Charles Spinosa spent decades as both a Shakespeare professor and management consultant, giving him a unique lens on what separates true leadership from good management. His approach isn't about influence or operational excellence—it's about moral artistry. It’s about the courage to ask "what always goes wrong?" and then take the risks necessary to create something beautiful instead.

If you've ever felt like the person pointing out what's broken, if you have strong convictions about what's right even when it's unpopular, or if you're tired of managing around problems instead of solving them, this conversation will resonate deeply. Charles reveals why justice-sensitive and neurodivergent people often have a natural advantage in seeing what others miss—and how to turn that insight into transformational leadership. This episode will help you with leading leaders, and with seeing your own leadership development and career as a journey in masterpiece leadership.

Episode Highlights:

• The two questions that define “masterpiece leadership:” What always goes wrong in your industry, and what would you love to do instead?
• How to distinguish between dissenters (who sharpen your vision) and betrayers (who undermine it).
• Why naysayers are often a sign that you’re taking the right kinds of risks.
• The neurodivergent advantage: spotting injustices and anomalies others overlook.
• Practical strategies for pushing through despair when moral risks don’t pay off right away.
• Justice sensitivity as a leadership strength—and how it positions you to create businesses worth falling in love with.

Key Concepts Explored:

• Passion as a defining force that fuels resilience and long-term transformation
• The Two-Question Framework that separates masterpiece creators from managers
• Moral risk-taking: why changing norms will always feel “wrong” at first
• Betrayers vs. dissenters—and why dissent is essential for progress
• Truth-seeking platforms that go beyond psychological safety to real intellectual conflict
• Post-truth business culture and the limits of data without human truth
• Justice sensitivity as a leadership advantage for transformational change
• The neurodivergent edge in spotting anomalies and injustices others miss
• Moral artistry: making solutions not just right, but beautiful
• Fighting through despair and returning to core beliefs during setbacks
• Awe and wonder as signals you’re on the right path
• A systemic change strategy for moving from easy wins to bold transformations

Common Questions Answered:

• How can you take moral risks without putting your career in jeopardy?
• What separates managers from masterpiece creators?
• How should leaders handle team resistance to moral change?

Notable Quotes:

"What do people say leadership is these days? They say leadership is influence. I'm saying no. Leadership is taking moral risks to establish morally distinctive masterpieces. So I'm overturning a lot of norms. Of course there are gonna people who hate that." – Charles Spinosa [00:34:19]

"So if I'm not hearing from naysayers, I might not be taking as much risk as I think I am, or as much risk as I could in pursuing a defining passion. That hearing from critics and naysayers says you're doing something different enough for people to have naysaying to do about it." – Sara Lobkovich [00:33:18]

"Always be sensitive to what's going wrong in your organization. And don't forget to ask what you would love instead. And try to make the solutions you offer beautiful." – Charles Spinosa [00:32:57]

"So if you're a leader, you are trying to make a moral vision come true. You want to make it profitable. You wanted people to see that what you see is the right way to do business in your industry, in your organization. And those hits are hits to your heart. They're not just hits to the bottom line. And you take three hits to the heart — bam, bam, bam — in a row. My experience is that's very hard." – Charles Spinosa [00:09:56]

"The thing to do is to ask yourself, What do I believe to be true? What do I believe to be true about my customers? Most importantly, what do I believe to be true about my employees? What do I believe to be true about me?" – Charles Spinosa [00:10:22]

"Hearing from critics and naysayers says you're doing something different enough for people to have naysaying to do about it." – Sara Lobkovich [00:33:40]

Chapters:

[00:00:00] Introduction to Masterpiece Leadership and Moral Vision

[00:02:00] Defining Leading Leaders

[00:03:00] The Masterpiece Creation Framework: What Always Goes Wrong?

[00:04:00] Moral Risk-Taking: Building Systematic Change

[00:05:00] The Importance of Leading Leaders in Organizations

[00:07:00] Anita Roddick and The Body Shop: When Events Force Bigger Risks

[00:09:00] Fighting Through Despair: When Moral Visions Take Hits

[00:10:00] Masterpiece Leadership Principles for Moral Risk-Taking

[00:14:00] Real-World Examples of Masterpiece Leadership

[00:16:00] The Problem with Post-Truth Business Culture

[00:17:00] Betrayers vs. Dissenters: Building Truth-Seeking Teams

[00:19:00] Strategies for Leading Leaders Effectively

[00:21:00] Justice Sensitivity as Leadership Strength

[00:23:00] Overcoming Challenges in Masterpiece Leadership

[00:25:00] Defining Passion and the Power of Awe and Wonder

[00:26:00] The Story That Made You: Finding Your Core Virtue

[00:28:00] Building a Culture of Masterpiece Leadership

[00:29:00] The Neurodivergent Advantage: Seeing Anomalies Others Miss

[00:30:00] Charles's Personal Story: From Dyslexia to Philosophy Professor

[00:32:00] Avoiding Neurodivergent Snobbery While Leveraging Differences

[00:33:00] Next Steps for Aspiring Leading Leaders in Business Reality

[00:34:00] Why Critics Mean You're Changing Something Important

[00:35:00] Closing Thoughts on Masterpiece Leadership and Leading Leaders

Guest Information:

• Charles Spinosa is a management consultant with 28 years of experience working with Fortune 100 companies and startups across North America, Europe, and Latin America. He brings a unique philosophical perspective to business leadership, having started his career as a Shakespeare professor at UC Berkeley studying "defining passions" in literature before transitioning into consulting work focused on leadership development, culture change, and innovation.
• Charles is the author of "Leadership as Masterpiece Creation: What Business Leaders Can Learn from the Humanities about Moral Risk-Taking," which challenges conventional wisdom about influence-based leadership. As someone who is neurodivergent and dyslexic, he advocates for leaders who see anomalies and injustices that others miss, helping them transform moral vision into business reality through systematic risk-taking and what he calls "moral artistry."
• His work centers on helping leaders move beyond managing around problems to creating something genuinely beautiful and transformative, even when facing resistance from teams, boards, and entire industries.

Connect with Zeph:

What if everything you've been taught about goal setting is actually working against you?

What if the rigid structure of SMART goals is crushing your creativity, disconnecting you from your body, and forcing you into a binary that simply doesn't fit who you are?

Today's guest, Zephyr (Zeph) Williams (they/them), is an anti-hustle business strategist who helps radical entrepreneurs build "breathe-easy businesses." When Zeph and I connected over our mutual loathing of SMART goals on social media, I knew we had to have this conversation.

In this episode, we're diving deep into why traditional goal-setting methods fail so many of us—especially neurodivergent folks and anyone who doesn't fit the conventional mold. Zeph introduces their revolutionary SLIC method (Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative, Consistent) and shares why self-care isn't optional—it's strategic. But the real magic happens when we land on a beautiful reframe that might just change how you think about achievement forever.

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Episode Highlights:

• Why SMART goals create a restrictive binary that crushes creativity and exploration
• The semantic problems with SMART goal terminology that create confusion and ambiguity
• How "specific" goals create tunnel vision that blocks curiosity and the learning journey
• The SLIC Method: Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative, and Consistent goal-setting
• Why self-care isn't selfish—it's a strategic foundation for sustainable success
• How to reconnect with your body through micro-practices and energy tracking
• The role of grace and compassion when breaking free from binary thinking
• What "queering" business practices means and why it's for everyone
• The beautiful reframe from "goal setting" to "becoming"—asking "What am I becoming?"
• Why consistency means showing up as your needs allow, not the same way every day
• How traditional goal-setting often leads to self-abandonment and disconnection from the body

Key Concepts Explored:

• The binary nature of SMART goals and why they create a restrictive pass/fail mentality
• The SLIC Method as an alternative: Sustainable, Long-term, Iterative, and Consistent goal-setting
• Self-care as a radical act of rebellion against systems that devalue your worth
• "Queering" business practices to move beyond traditional binary frameworks
• The shift from "goal setting" to "becoming" as a more expansive approach to growth
• Body-based awareness and reconnecting with somatic needs during goal pursuit
• Why consistency means showing up according to your capacity, not rigid daily habits

Common Questions Answered:

• Why do SMART goals feel so restrictive and overwhelming?
• What makes the SLIC method different from traditional goal-setting?
• How do you start reconnecting with your body if you feel disconnected?
• What does "queering" goal setting actually mean?
• How do you define consistency without burning out?
• Why is self-care considered strategic rather than selfish?

Notable Quotes:

"SMART goals are very binary. You either succeed or you fail. And I'm not somebody who does the binary very well." - Zeph Williams [00:03:00]

"When I hear 'specific,' it feels like a narrowing down... You don't get to enjoy the journey and enjoying the view." - Zeph Williams [00:07:00]

"Self-care isn't selfish—it's strategic. When you take care of yourself, you are sending a gentle reminder that you matter and that your needs matter." - Zeph Williams [00:11:00]

"What if instead of goal setting, we focused on becoming? What are you becoming?" - Zeph Williams [00:32:00]

"There are just so many people who are brilliant... Sometimes it just feels like the world has just gotten to them and that light has gotten really dim." - Zeph Williams [00:28:00]

Chapters:

[00:00:00] Introduction: Why SMART Goals Need a Rethink

[00:01:30] Meet Zeph: From Career Coaching to SLIC Thinking

[00:04:00] What’s Wrong with SMART Goals? The Limits of Over-Specification

[00:07:30] Beyond Binary Thinking: The Problems with Measurable & Time-Bound

[00:10:00] SLIC Goals: A Kinder Framework for Growth and Learning

[00:13:00] How to Know You’re Making Progress (Without Hitting a Number)

[00:15:30] Clarity Without Rigidity: Why Language Matters in Goal-Setting

[00:18:00] Accountability vs. Shame: Rethinking How We “Check In”

[00:20:30] Zeph’s Coaching Practice: How SLIC Supports Real Transformation

[00:24:00] Choosing Goals That Align With Your Values and Energy

[00:27:00] When Goal-Setting Feels Like Self-Punishment

[00:29:30] The Long Game: Creating Systems That Evolve With You

[00:32:00] SLIC in Practice: Real Examples from Zeph’s Clients

[00:35:00] How to Get Started with SLIC Thinking

[00:38:00] Wrap-Up: Connect with Zeph and Learn More

Guest Information:

• Zephyr Williams is an anti-hustle business strategist showing radical business owners how to build breathe-easy businesses that make their brains happy and let their bodies breathe. With a background in criminal justice policy and prison abolition work, Zeph brings a unique perspective on dismantling harmful systems and creating space for everyone to thrive.

Connect with Zeph:

Ever feel like your brain just won’t quit, and traditional meditation only makes it worse?

Thinkydoers host Sara Lobkovich gets it. She lives mostly in her head, and practices like meditation or breathwork have often felt out of reach. They seemed like they were designed for people who are naturally calm and centered — not her.

But this conversation with Chauna Bryant shifted everything. Chauna is a trauma-informed breathwork professional, and founder of Breath Liberation Society. She also describes herself as “probably the least chill meditation teacher you’ll ever meet.”

Together, they explore how breathwork can offer a more accessible entry point for overthinkers and busy brains. Instead of forcing stillness, breathwork gives the mind something active to focus on — what Chauna compares to “giving your brain an iPad” to occupy it — while the body does its own work.

They also talk about how breathwork differs from traditional meditation, why it’s particularly helpful for people with trauma histories, and how starting small (even just two breaths or two minutes) can be helpful.

If mindfulness has ever felt like it wasn’t made for your kind of mind, this episode is for you.

Episode Highlights:

• Why breathwork succeeds where traditional meditation fails for many people
• The difference between activating and calming breathwork techniques
• How to start a somatic practice when you're resistant to body-based work
• Trauma-informed approaches to breathwork and nervous system regulation
• The power of "titration" - starting with just 2 minutes instead of diving in
• Why consent and agency are crucial in breathwork practice
• Understanding breathwork as "nervous system pushups" for stress resilience

Key Concepts Explored:

• Conscious connected breathing and three-part breath techniques
• The origins and cultural lineages of breathwork practices
• How breathwork allows nonverbal processing of emotions and trauma
• The importance of finding trauma-informed, skilled practitioners
• Why patience becomes "your first form of body connection"

Common Questions Answered:

• What exactly is breathwork and how is it different from meditation?
• How can I start if I'm resistant to body-based practices?
• Is breathwork safe for people with trauma history?
• What should I expect from my first breathwork experience?

Notable Quotes:

“Breathwork gives the brain something to do. It’s just weird enough that it helps the body start to process what we’ve shelved or ignored.” — Chauna Bryant [00:04:00]

“Whatever you’re doing, try like a minute. Try two minutes. Give it two minutes and then get out. That’s the way to start to build that body connection.” — Chauna Bryant [00:14:00]

“For a lot of us with busy brains, patience is going to be our first form of body connection.” — Chauna Bryant [00:16:00]

“Just let the experience exist without having to slap words on it.” — Chauna Bryant [00:31:00]

“In breathwork, you get to choose as much or as little as you do—and whatever you choose, you’ll be cheered on fiercely.” — Chauna Bryant [00:34:00]

Chapters:

[00:00:00] Introduction: Welcome to Thinkydoers and Meet Chauna Bryant

[00:02:00] What is Breathwork? Active Meditation for Busy Brains

[00:05:00] Origins and Cultural Lineages of Breathwork Practices

[00:06:00] From Brain-Centered to Body-Aware: Sara and Chauna's Common Ground

[00:08:00] Chauna's Journey: From Gymnast to "Least Chill Meditation Teacher"

[00:11:00] The Meditation Failure and Discovering Breathwork

[00:12:00] Getting Started: Overcoming Resistance to Somatic Practices

[00:15:00] Perfectionism and All-or-Nothing Thinking in Body Work

[00:17:00] From Student to Teacher: Building Breath Liberation Society

[00:21:00] Nervous System Regulation: Separating Science from Sales Pitches

[00:26:00] Trauma-Informed Breathwork: Different Breaths for Different Days

[00:30:00] Nonverbal Healing: When Words Aren't Enough

[00:32:00] Celebrating the Process: Success Starts at Breath One

[00:34:00] Agency and Consent: Choosing Your Own Breathwork Journey

[00:36:00] Connect with Chauna and Closing Thoughts

Guest Information:

• Chauna Bryant is a breathwork instructor, movement specialist, and founder of Breath Liberation Society - the first Black-owned globally accredited breathwork training program. Based in Maryland, Chauna specializes in trauma-informed breathwork and is moving into hybrid in-person/virtual training models in 2025.

Chauna’s Link and Resources: