In this episode, Michael talks with environmental writer Clare Follmann about her new book Scapegoat: What the Invasive Species Story Gets Wrong (AK Press) - and yes, we are talking about invasive species again, but this time with sharper teeth. Together they question the fantasy of eradication, unpack "plastic words" like management and health, and examine how invasive species rhetoric can distract from capitalism, climate disruption, and the systems actually reshaping our landscapes. From novel ecosystems to the ethics of killing in conservation, this conversation asks restoration practitioners to be more precise, more honest, and maybe a little less trigger-happy with the war metaphors. Because in a warming world, clarity matters - and not everything that spreads is the villain. Clare Follmann https://clarefollmann.com Scapegoat: What the Invasive Species Story Gets Wrong (AK Press): https://www.akpress.org/scapegoat.html Barred Owl Controversy (Referenced in Episode) U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service Barred Owl Management Strategy: https://www.fws.gov/project/barred-owl-management To Kill or Not to Kill? The Controversial Plan to Kill Half a Million Barred Owls https://www.earthlawcenter.org/blog-entries/2024/12/to-kill-or-not-to-kill-the-controversial-plan-to-kill-half-a-million-barred-owls Grove & Grit Substack Treehugger is independently produced. If this episode moved you, challenged you, or sharpened your thinking, consider supporting the podcast: Venmo: @myadrickPayPal: paypal.me/myadrickCashApp: $michaelyadrickjr You can also support by sharing the episode, leaving a review, or sending it to someone who still says "combat invasive species" with a straight face. Intro/Outro Music by: Xander and The Grey Room