The Unburdened Leader

How do we stay awake and aware without constantly being outraged? Or, perhaps even worse, normalizing what should be utterly unacceptable?Staying human is hard in this environment. So many leaders are trying to hold onto their boundaries and values against pressure to act contrary to them, to stay compassionate and curious when so many forces benefit from and encourage our outrage.Anger, rage, and outrage are powerful and can be useful emotions. But when we live from a perpetual state of outrage, we lose access to the self-leadership and adaptive skills that help us lead well, and eventually it takes us out.Today’s guest is here to help us understand what outrage really is, why it’s so potent right now, how it becomes weaponized, and how we can use it without losing ourselves.Kurt Gray is a social psychologist who studies our moral minds and how best to bridge political divides. Gray received his PhD from Harvard University, and now directs the Deepest Beliefs Lab at The Ohio State University. He also leads the Center for the Science of Moral Understanding, which explores new ways to reduce polarization, and is a Field Builder in the New Pluralists, which seeks to build a more pluralistic America.Gray’s work on morality, politics, religion, creativity, and AI has been widely discussed in the media, including the New York Times, the Economist, Scientific American, Wired, and Hidden Brain. He is the co-author of the book The Mind Club: Who Thinks, What Feels and Why it Matters, and the author of Outraged: Why We Fight about Morality and Politics. Listen to the full episode to hear:How Kurt’s childhood experiences with his stepmother’s conservative, evangelical family have informed his thinking about how we can connect despite differencesHow our human wiring for threat detection causes “harm creep,” even while many of us are safer than everHow our outrage is connected to our perceptions of our risk and vulnerabilityHow our moral imagination helps us maintain our empathy and humanity without losing sight of our values and boundariesWhy we need to learn to recognize destruction narratives and how they’re being used to sow divisionWhy leading with facts and statistics fails in moral and political arguments and how we can more effectively begin to bridge the gapsWhy we need to leave room for uncertainty and humility in our convictionsLearn more about Kurt Gray, PhD:WebsiteConnect on LinkedInMoral Understanding NewsletterOutraged: Why We Fight About Morality and Politics and How to Find Common GroundThe Mind Club: Who Thinks, What Feels, and Why it MattersLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience, Brené BrownRage Becomes Her: The Power of Women's Anger, Soraya ChemalyEP 96: Rage to Action: The Leading Power of Women’s Anger with Soraya ChemalyBrené Brown on the State of Leadership in America Today | On with Kara SwisherEP 52: Charlie Gilkey: Leading With What Matters MostDaryl DavisSaja Boys - "Your Idol"Stranger Things Bad ThoughtsOrdinary People Change the World Series, Brad Meltzer and Christopher Eliopoulos

Every day, we’re flooded with information–headlines, opinions, advice, noise. And beneath that deluge of input, we carry stories that tell us how we stay safe and what asking questions will cost us.Certainty too often feels like safety. So we rush to respond before we understand and defend before we discern. We don’t pause to reflect or to question the loudest voices in the room–proverbial or otherwise.But certainty at the expense of discernment can damage our connections to each other and to ourselves. Leadership that builds connection and trust for the long term requires us to cultivate the courage to ask questions and follow the answers, even when it’s uncomfortable. When we catch an old story running the show and stay curious instead of certain, we can metabolize what’s driving reactivity and protection. It’s how we stay open, grounded, and self-led in a world that rewards reactivity.My guest in this conversation refers to this practice as faithful skepticism: asking hard questions without abandoning hope. When I read his moving essay, “Groomed by the Church: How The Clash Saved My Soul,” I knew I had to invite him here to discuss the importance of refining our discernment and cultivating skepticism as a vital tool for effective leadership. And how music serves as a powerful trailhead–both as a cultural lightning rod and as a catalyst for self-discovery. David Adey is a multimedia artist based in San Diego, CA. His work has been exhibited at The Museum of Contemporary Art San Diego, Orange County Museum of Art, Crystal Bridges Museum, Minneapolis Institute of Art, Frist Center for The Visual Arts, Oceanside Museum of Art, Cranbrook Art Museum, and venues nationally and internationally. His work has been featured in publications including Art in America, LA Weekly, The Huffington Post, Wired Magazine, Thisiscolossal, and PBS. He received his MFA in sculpture from Cranbrook Academy of Art. Adey is a professor of art and design at Point Loma Nazarene University.Listen to the full episode to hear:How an outing to see a Black Sabbath cover band inspired David’s essayHow the parallels of the Satanic Panic of his youth and our current cultural moment took the essay from journal entry to published workWhy David believes in the power of being offensive with a purposeHow the church’s narrow focus on spiritual dangers came at a cost to real life safetyHow David’s teenaged experiences inform how he now leads his students and parents his childrenThe impact of his mother’s support when he both wanted to reject his musical loves and then reconnect with themWhy faithful skepticism is a powerful antidote for certainty and cynicismLearn more about David Adey:WebsiteInstagram: @davidadey.studioLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Groomed By the Church: How The Clash Saved My Soul | The RumpusSatanic panicJeff KoonsThe Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness, Jonathan HaidtNorth Country, Gillian Welch and David RawlingsLootStar WarsRichard RohrThich Nhat Hanh

Leaders carry the weight of more than their current roles.We receive messages from the generations before us about our worth, work, and belonging that shape how we show up–for better or worse. This is just as true in our working lives as it is in our families.If we want to change the narratives, we have to become aware of the legacy burdens–personal, familial, cultural, systemic–that have been passed down to us and choose to transform those burdens into opportunities for healing, growth, and leadership that alters the course of our teams and organizations for the better.When we can name what we’ve absorbed–what doesn’t belong to our personal story but to those who came before us–we create space for healing and release. And from that place, we can hold onto our hope, lead with integrity, and stay grounded in what truly matters.My guest today is a dear colleague and friend who is here to talk with me about the impact of generational messaging on our leadership, and how we can begin to dismantle these narratives for ourselves and in our organizations.Crystal R. Jones is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Lead IFS-I Trainer who passionately spreads the healing essence of the IFS model worldwide. Known for her embodied compassion, relatability, and heart-led approach to her work, Crystal has personally experienced the transformative power of the IFS model in her own healing journey. This profound experience fuels Crystal’s dedication to creating safe spaces for marginalized communities, particularly Black women and women of color, to feel connected, seen, heard, and valued as they embark on their healing journeys individually and collectively. Crystal is fervently committed to teaching the model in a way that illuminates and speaks to BIPOC communities, ensuring its adaptability, accessibility, and relevance to diverse populations.Listen to the full episode to hear:How legacy burdens are passed through families and cultures as messages of survivalHow Crystal reckons with cultural burdens by choosing to show up imperfectly and with vulnerabilitySelf-reflection questions to help you identify and consider legacy burdensHow belonging and shame show up when working with legacy burdensHow Crystal is shifting workplace narratives for her teams and in her trainingsLearn more about Crystal Jones:Life Source Counseling CenterLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:EP 139: Bad Bosses Aren’t Born, They’re Made: Breaking Toxic Leadership Cycles with Mita MallickEP 102: Toxic Leadership: The True Cost of Workplace Trauma with Mita MallickBlack Liturgies: Prayers, Poems, and Meditations for Staying Human, Cole Arthur Riley Alex IsleyOrange Is the New Black

What does it mean to be good?It’s a little word that carries a lot of weight for many of us. Be a good girl. Be a good friend. Be a good leader. Do good.Good can sound like praise, but become a cage of expectations and shoulds, a performance that chips away at our authenticity. Good is no longer something we are, but is how others see us. It leads us to people please and keep the peace at all costs. And that’s especially true for women.All too often, when women are in leadership, their goodness is measured by how they make others feel–good, comfortable, understood. All of that matters. But when the measure of leadership becomes how comfortable other people feel around us, we lose something essential.We perform and manage emotions instead of building trust and respect. We seek to be liked and to fit in at the cost of real integrity and effectiveness. And likability is oh-so fleeting.Respect, integrity, and true belonging take time and discomfort to build, but they last.My guest today has written beautifully and bravely about the cost of being good, the truth of belonging, and the courage it takes to lead ourselves and others through discomfort.Elise Loehnen is the New York Times bestselling author of On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to be Good and the host of the podcast, Pulling the Thread, where she interviews cultural luminaries about the big questions of today, including people like Joy Harjo, John and Julie Gottman, Dr. Gabor Maté, and Esther Perel. In addition to On Our Best Behavior, she is the author of a corresponding workbook—Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness—with coach Courtney Smith (July 2025), and the co-author of True & False Magic, with legendary psychiatrist Phil Stutz. Elise lives in Los Angeles with her husband, Rob, and their sons, Max and Sam.Listen to the full episode to hear:How Elise traced the cultural roots of the “good woman” back to early Christianity and the many additions, erasures, and mistranslations of Biblical storiesWhy we need to pay attention to our envy and how it shows up in relation to other womenHow envy, pride, and greed fuel each other and the ways we stay small and tear other women downHow social media has heightened the risk of reputational damage and changed how women work and lead, for better and worseWhy we latch onto ideas of goodness and purity more deeply in times of greater uncertaintyHow current narratives about the “natural” order are ahistorical manipulations that limit what we believe is possibleLearn more about Elise Loehnen:WebsitePulling the Thread on SubstackInstagram: @eliseloehnenOn Our Best Behavior: The Price Women Pay to Be GoodChoosing Wholeness Over Goodness: A Process for Reclaiming Your Full SelfTrue and False Magic: A Tools WorkbookLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Braving the Wilderness: The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone, Brené BrownEP 123: Befriending Your Nervous System: Building Capacity for Regulation with Deb DanaThe Intrinsic Order that Emerges from Within Chaos (Elinor Dickson, PhD)Dancing in the Flames: The Dark Goddess in the Transformation of Consciousness, Elinor Dickson and Marion Woodman EP 88: Right-Use-of-Power: Navigating Leadership Dynamics with Dr. Cedar BarstowEP 125: Power, Regulation, and Leadership: Connecting to Your Personal Power with Dr. Amanda AguileraThe Reprioritization of Relationship (Lori Gottlieb)Maybe You Should Talk To Someone: A Therapist, HER Therapist, and Our Lives Revealed, Lori GottliebLessons from Hollywood’s Most Powerful Woman—And How They Can Help You (with Donna Langley) | Aspire with Emma GredeAnswer to Job, Carl JungAion: Researches Into the Phenomenology of the Self, Carl JungThe Science of Magic: How the Mind Weaves the Fabric of Reality, Dean Radin PhDMistakes Were Made (but Not By Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts, Carol Tavris and Elliot AronsonSigur Rós - YouTubeJónsi - YouTubeLove IslandThe Gilded AgeMaidenStutz

We live in an age where truth twists into confusion, opinion drowns out data, and it’s increasingly difficult to figure out whose expertise we can trust.Where did our mistrust in expertise come from? Its roots stretch back to deliberate misinformation campaigns beginning in the 1950s spread by the likes of Big Tobacco, Big Oil, and conservative church movements. Then social media poured gasoline on the fire, accelerating the spread of misinformation and making sowing division highly profitable.Misinformation campaigns take advantage of our brains’ natural tendency to protect the familiar and mistrust outgroups. And they capitalize on the very real betrayals people have experienced at the hands of corporations, governments, schools, and healthcare systems.Our challenge now isn’t just knowing the facts, it’s interrogating our own beliefs, asking where our evidence comes from, and resisting the pull of certainty. As leaders, we need to discern who we give our attention to, practice critical thinking, resist manufactured controversy, and platform voices committed to both truth and connection.Today’s guest is a neuroscientist and author of Why Brains Need Friends, who works to make science accessible, relational, and rooted in respect. He doesn’t focus on winning arguments or shaming people into submission. He focuses on bridging divides, building trust, and reminding us that our brains–and our lives–are wired for connection.Ben Rein, PhD is an award-winning neuroscientist and science communicator. He serves as the Chief Science Officer of the Mind Science Foundation, an Adjunct Lecturer at Stanford University, and a Clinical Assistant Professor at SUNY Buffalo. He has published over 20 peer-reviewed papers on the neuroscience of social behavior, and is the author of Why Brains Need Friends: The Neuroscience of Social Connection. In addition, Rein educates an audience of more than 1 million social media followers and has been featured on outlets including Entertainment Tonight, Good Morning America and StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He has received awards for his science communication from the National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine, the Society for Neuroscience, and elsewhere.Listen to the full episode to hear:How an especially vivid nightmare redirected Ben’s path to neuroscienceWhy the division and isolation of modern life is so bad for our brains and overall healthHow engaging with strangers isn’t as awkward as we often think it is, and why we should do it moreHow small social interactions build our sense of belonging, community, and wellbeingWhy we need to recognize and then override our gut reactions to those we perceive as belonging to outgroupsHow social media sound bites vastly oversimplify the complex and unknown systems in our brainsWhy Ben’s primary mission to to help people understand the value of looking to data and evidence rather than personalities and experiencesWhy we all have to get better at fact-checking and questioning why we’re ready to believe somethingLearn more about Dr. Ben Rein:WebsiteInstagram: @dr.benreinWhy Brains Need Friends: The Neuroscience of Social ConnectionLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaThe Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Golden Holocaust: Origins of the Cigarette Catastrophe and the Case for Abolition, Robert N Proctor"Assessing ExxonMobil’s climate change communications (1977–2014),” Geoffrey Supran and Naomi Oreskes, 2017 Environmental Research Letters 12 084019The Creationists: From Scientific Creationism to Intelligent Design, Ronald L. Numbers"Misinformation and Its Correction Continued Influence and Successful Debiasing,” Stephan Lewandowsky et al., 2012 Psychological Science in the Public Interest, 13(3)The Logic of Scientific Discovery, Karl PopperSciSpaceSapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, Yuval Noah HarariDune, Frank HerbertThe Poisoner's Handbook: Murder and the Birth of Forensic Medicine in Jazz Age New York, Deborah BlumTory Lanez - Gangland x Fargentina 4EVR (feat. Wolfgang Peterson & Kai)Hard Knocks: Training CampCourage the Cowardly Dog