<description>
        Why did you stay?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This is the worst question that you can ask a survivor of Domestic Violence, and yet it’s one that Katherine Marie Papp-Mastin and I revisited in our conversation about the abuse she suffered over nine years to Alexander (not her abuser’s real name). &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Why did you stay? This is a question for outsiders, for civilians, observers, witnesses to violence – but not those who have experienced those horrors up close and personally. It is a simplification of an inherently complex, nuanced, messy situation, namely, that one person who claims to love another could cause that personal irreparable, devastating harm. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;We need to stop asking, “Why did you stay?” and instead ask violent men, “Why are you abusive?” Alexander did ask himself that question in therapy, church, and books, but the problem is he never stayed with anything long enough to find out the answer. Instead, his own childhood trauma of witnessing his parents abuse one another manifested in his treatment of Katherine, their child, and other women, including his own sister.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Katherine shares with us her survival of an extraordinarily violent relationship. She helps us see life from the perspective of someone forced to seek refuge in a women’s shelter – or rather the four she visited with her young son in 6.5 months. She reveals to us the deep trauma that comes from not only the abuse, but what comes after you escape as you try to piece your life, yourself back together. Katherine shows us what you lose when you break free, and we all have to ask: Is it worth the price? &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Speaking with Katherine, a quote from Rachel Louise Snyder’s No Visible Bruises, was on repeat in my head, reminding me how little any of us understand about the strength of survivors: &lt;br&gt;"Women like [Katherine] share this steadfastness. A determination and resoluteness to keep themselves and their children alive by any means possible. They don’t quit. They stay in abusive marriages because they understand something most of us do not, something from the inside out, something that seems to defy logic: as dangerous as it is in their homes, it is almost always far more dangerous to leave." &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Trigger warning: Episode includes reference to extreme physical violence, guns, and guns pointed at a child. 
      </description>

Why did you stay?

This is the worst question that you can ask a survivor of Domestic Violence,...

Why did you stay?

This is the worst question that you can ask a survivor of Domestic Violence, and yet it’s one that Katherine Marie Papp-Mastin and I revisited in our conversation about the abuse she suffered over nine years to Alexander (not her abuser’s real name). 

Why did you stay? This is a question for outsiders, for civilians, observers, witnesses to violence – but not those who have experienced those horrors up close and personally. It is a simplification of an inherently complex, nuanced, messy situation, namely, that one person who claims to love another could cause that personal irreparable, devastating harm. 

We need to stop asking, “Why did you stay?” and instead ask violent men, “Why are you abusive?” Alexander did ask himself that question in therapy, church, and books, but the problem is he never stayed with anything long enough to find out the answer. Instead, his own childhood trauma of witnessing his parents abuse one another manifested in his treatment of Katherine, their child, and other women, including his own sister.

Katherine shares with us her survival of an extraordinarily violent relationship. She helps us see life from the perspective of someone forced to seek refuge in a women’s shelter – or rather the four she visited with her young son in 6.5 months. She reveals to us the deep trauma that comes from not only the abuse, but what comes after you escape as you try to piece your life, yourself back together. Katherine shows us what you lose when you break free, and we all have to ask: Is it worth the price? 

Speaking with Katherine, a quote from Rachel Louise Snyder’s No Visible Bruises, was on repeat in my head, reminding me how little any of us understand about the strength of survivors: 
"Women like [Katherine] share this steadfastness. A determination and resoluteness to keep themselves and their children alive by any means possible. They don’t quit. They stay in abusive marriages because they understand something most of us do not, something from the inside out, something that seems to defy logic: as dangerous as it is in their homes, it is almost always far more dangerous to leave." 

Trigger warning: Episode includes reference to extreme physical violence, guns, and guns pointed at a child. 

Katherine Marie Papp-Mastin: Why did you stay? And other stupid questions

<description>
        Tana Kiefer lives life deliberately, thoughtfully, and with purpose. She is determined to raise five children who are resilient and kind, and for whom the cycle of abuse has ended. Tana endured 15 years of domestic violence in the form of psychological torment, gaslighting, and coercive control. She became an expert in keeping the peace, doing whatever was necessary to protect her children and herself from a volatile, abusive person. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Tana shares with us a simple truth: So much abuse is not physical. California is one state to recognize the damage of coercive control, and is in process of passing legislation to make it a criminal offense (SB 1141). We still have a long way to go before that abuse is criminalized as it should be. The National Coalition Against Domestic Violence estimates 95% of abusers use tactics of psychological abuse on their victims. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;One of the most important lessons from Tana is about planning your escape from your abuser. For a year, she ferried clothes, documents, photos to a safe place in anticipation of the day when she would get away. Leaving wasn't easy - it never is - but Tana had prepared herself logistically for the fight to freedom.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Our conversation concludes with Tana sharing a beautiful poem written daughter, an example of the hope that comes from a generation raised with the language and the knowledge to seek healthy relationships. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Tana has read extensively in her recovery from abuse, and recommends these resources: &lt;br&gt;- Power: Surviving and Thriving After Narcissistic Abuse by Shahidi Arabi (2017)&lt;br&gt;- Unfu*ck Yourself by Gary John Bishop (2016)&lt;br&gt;- Psychopath Free by Jackson MacKenzie (2015)
      </description>

Tana Kiefer lives life deliberately, thoughtfully, and with purpose. She is determined to raise f...

Tana Kiefer lives life deliberately, thoughtfully, and with purpose. She is determined to raise five children who are resilient and kind, and for whom the cycle of abuse has ended. Tana endured 15 years of domestic violence in the form of psychological torment, gaslighting, and coercive control. She became an expert in keeping the peace, doing whatever was necessary to protect her children and herself from a volatile, abusive person. 

Tana shares with us a simple truth: So much abuse is not physical. California is one state to recognize the damage of coercive control, and is in process of passing legislation to make it a criminal offense (SB 1141). We still have a long way to go before that abuse is criminalized as it should be. The National Coalition Against Domestic Violence estimates 95% of abusers use tactics of psychological abuse on their victims. 

One of the most important lessons from Tana is about planning your escape from your abuser. For a year, she ferried clothes, documents, photos to a safe place in anticipation of the day when she would get away. Leaving wasn't easy - it never is - but Tana had prepared herself logistically for the fight to freedom.

Our conversation concludes with Tana sharing a beautiful poem written daughter, an example of the hope that comes from a generation raised with the language and the knowledge to seek healthy relationships. 

Tana has read extensively in her recovery from abuse, and recommends these resources: 
- Power: Surviving and Thriving After Narcissistic Abuse by Shahidi Arabi (2017)
- Unfu*ck Yourself by Gary John Bishop (2016)
- Psychopath Free by Jackson MacKenzie (2015)

Tana Kiefer - Breaking the Cycle of Abuse

<description>
        Christina Huffman comes from a scientific background. For her, numbers matter and they tell stories. Part of her own life story is captured in an alarming statistic: 50% of trans women will experience Domestic Violence at some point in their life. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Christina is a survivor of two abusive relationships. She dives deep into her own personal pain to share with us how the abuse manifested in each – one of which was overtly physical and the other primarily showed up in emotional and financial control. Christina also explores how being a transgender woman was weaponized by an abuser and required careful consideration as to whether she could seek protection from the police. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What we hear from Christina is a common refrain among survivors: When you are being hurt, your first instinct is simply to make the pain stop. So, you do what you have to in the immediate to survive; to stop the pain. It’s also not the most painful instance which causes you to leave, but rather the point where you finally say, “Enough.”&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;A lesson that Christina hopes everyone takes from her experience is that recovery from abuse is a long road. Be patient with survivors. Give them grace; give them support; give them time. For Christina, it took more than a year, going to therapy, and the death of a friend – the sister of the podcast host – to finally say the “A word:” Abuse. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Resources that Christina would like to share include:&lt;br&gt;- Wendt Center for Loss and Healing (located in Washington, DC): https://www.wendtcenter.org/&lt;br&gt;- The Trevor Project: https://www.thetrevorproject.org/
      </description>

Christina Huffman comes from a scientific background. For her, numbers matter and they tell stori...

Christina Huffman comes from a scientific background. For her, numbers matter and they tell stories. Part of her own life story is captured in an alarming statistic: 50% of trans women will experience Domestic Violence at some point in their life. 

Christina is a survivor of two abusive relationships. She dives deep into her own personal pain to share with us how the abuse manifested in each – one of which was overtly physical and the other primarily showed up in emotional and financial control. Christina also explores how being a transgender woman was weaponized by an abuser and required careful consideration as to whether she could seek protection from the police. 

What we hear from Christina is a common refrain among survivors: When you are being hurt, your first instinct is simply to make the pain stop. So, you do what you have to in the immediate to survive; to stop the pain. It’s also not the most painful instance which causes you to leave, but rather the point where you finally say, “Enough.”

A lesson that Christina hopes everyone takes from her experience is that recovery from abuse is a long road. Be patient with survivors. Give them grace; give them support; give them time. For Christina, it took more than a year, going to therapy, and the death of a friend – the sister of the podcast host – to finally say the “A word:” Abuse. 

Resources that Christina would like to share include:
- Wendt Center for Loss and Healing (located in Washington, DC): https://www.wendtcenter.org/
- The Trevor Project: https://www.thetrevorproject.org/

Christina Huffman - Accepting the "A" Word

<description>
        Survivors of domestic violence are great at running calculations. Their minds are a series of “if, then” statements attempting to live in peace; to avoid pain; to stay alive. Many survivors go so far as to try to perfect themselves, thinking the power and control to stop the pain inflicted by their abusers lies with them. Once again, we see a deeply empathetic person preyed on and that empathy turned against her by an abuser.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Rebecca Zimmerman endured various forms of abuse at the hands of her boyfriend then husband for nine years. One of the least appreciated and understood forms of domestic violence is financial abuse. Jonathan, her abuser, is a senior manager in Denver at one of the top four global accounting firms. A numbers expert, he used his expertise in managing finances to control and abuse Rebecca. Reprimanded for buying a $20 bottle of wine when she could have bought one for $10; unable to work outside the home by refusing to pay for childcare; hacking into financial accounts even after they were divorced - Jonathan controlled her life through money, as well as emotional and physical violence. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It took Rebecca 15 attempts at police contact over a period of three months before her by-then-ex-husband was arrested and charged with a crime. He plead guilty to various charges of domestic violence. A deferred sentence and sealed case file allows him to maintain a public façade as a nice, respectable, professional numbers guy.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Listen to and learn from Rebecca yet another form of domestic / intimate partner violence. Pay attention to red flags of financial and electronic control to keep yourself and others safe. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Rebecca lives in Denver with her two daughters. She has made ending Intimate Partner Violence her life’s work, and begins a doctoral program at University of Denver in fall 2020.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Resources that Rebecca wants to share with you: &lt;br&gt;- Violence Free Colorado: https://www.violencefreecolorado.org/&lt;br&gt;- Seeking Safety by Lisa Najavits: https://books.google.com/books?id=BGwQDgAAQBAJ&amp;amp;lpg=PR1&amp;amp;ots=WtG8R5w-Lp&amp;amp;dq=seeking%20safety%20trauma%20informed%20care&amp;amp;lr&amp;amp;pg=PP1#v=onepage&amp;amp;q&amp;amp;f=false &lt;br&gt;- We Are Seeds Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/WeAreSeedsSurvivors&lt;br&gt;
      </description>

Survivors of domestic violence are great at running calculations. Their minds are a series of “if...

Survivors of domestic violence are great at running calculations. Their minds are a series of “if, then” statements attempting to live in peace; to avoid pain; to stay alive. Many survivors go so far as to try to perfect themselves, thinking the power and control to stop the pain inflicted by their abusers lies with them. Once again, we see a deeply empathetic person preyed on and that empathy turned against her by an abuser.  

Rebecca Zimmerman endured various forms of abuse at the hands of her boyfriend then husband for nine years. One of the least appreciated and understood forms of domestic violence is financial abuse. Jonathan, her abuser, is a senior manager in Denver at one of the top four global accounting firms. A numbers expert, he used his expertise in managing finances to control and abuse Rebecca. Reprimanded for buying a $20 bottle of wine when she could have bought one for $10; unable to work outside the home by refusing to pay for childcare; hacking into financial accounts even after they were divorced - Jonathan controlled her life through money, as well as emotional and physical violence. 

It took Rebecca 15 attempts at police contact over a period of three months before her by-then-ex-husband was arrested and charged with a crime. He plead guilty to various charges of domestic violence. A deferred sentence and sealed case file allows him to maintain a public façade as a nice, respectable, professional numbers guy.  

Listen to and learn from Rebecca yet another form of domestic / intimate partner violence. Pay attention to red flags of financial and electronic control to keep yourself and others safe. 

Rebecca lives in Denver with her two daughters. She has made ending Intimate Partner Violence her life’s work, and begins a doctoral program at University of Denver in fall 2020.

Resources that Rebecca wants to share with you: 
- Violence Free Colorado: https://www.violencefreecolorado.org/
- Seeking Safety by Lisa Najavits: https://books.google.com/books?id=BGwQDgAAQBAJ&lpg=PR1&ots=WtG8R5w-Lp&dq=seeking%20safety%20trauma%20informed%20care&lr&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false 
- We Are Seeds Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/WeAreSeedsSurvivors


Rebecca Zimmerman - Running the Numbers to Stay Alive

<description>
        When you listen to Pam Fine, you hear strength. You hear poise, positivity, intelligence, confidence, courage. You hear someone who is in control of her life and her destiny. Pam is an educator and a counselor, and you hear that experience and wisdom in her voice as well.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The abuse that Pam suffered for 20 months at the hands of Joe Tumpkin did not and does not define her. In fact, the violence she suffered became almost secondary to the miscarriage of justice, the abuse that she suffered during an agonizing 28-month legal process. The University of Colorado made the conscious decision to dismiss her concerns and suffering, thereby endangering her and others. And the Adams County District Attorney doubled down by assigning a biased attorney to prosecute her case. The actions of these officials – all men – caused as much trauma as the hands around her neck. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Pam’s is a harrowing story not just of domestic violence, but of systemic failure in which victims are dismissed, shamed, and blamed. Hers is the classic example of why so many victims choose not to come forward – the process of seeking justice is just as bad, if not worse, as the abuse itself.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;We hear again that Domestic Violence abusers follow a playbook – previous relationships with violence, infidelity, alcohol abuse, explosive rage, stalking. This is not normal. If you are in a relationship with these signs, you need to leave. What Pam wants everyone to know is that Domestic Violence happens to strong, confident people. There is no shame in what happened to you, and you deserve better. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Additional information about Pam’s experience can be found here:&lt;br&gt;- Alex Fine’s Haven Shelter Fundraiser: https://www.gofundme.com/f/almost-home-run-for-dv-victims&lt;br&gt;- Sports Illustrated: https://www.si.com/college/2017/02/03/colorado-football-joe-tumpkin-assault-case&lt;br&gt;- Westword: https://www.westword.com/news/for-pam-fine-surviving-a-cu-coach-joe-tumpkins-abuse-was-just-the-beginning-11062956&lt;br&gt;- Associated Press: https://apnews.com/f54a3b268aca4058bf7d7a74d28445ab&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For information about the correlation between strangulation and lethality: https://www.strangulationtraininginstitute.com/all-abusers-are-not-equal-new-ipv-research-reveals-an-indicator-of-deadly-abuse/
      </description>

When you listen to Pam Fine, you hear strength. You hear poise, positivity, intelligence, confide...

When you listen to Pam Fine, you hear strength. You hear poise, positivity, intelligence, confidence, courage. You hear someone who is in control of her life and her destiny. Pam is an educator and a counselor, and you hear that experience and wisdom in her voice as well.

The abuse that Pam suffered for 20 months at the hands of Joe Tumpkin did not and does not define her. In fact, the violence she suffered became almost secondary to the miscarriage of justice, the abuse that she suffered during an agonizing 28-month legal process. The University of Colorado made the conscious decision to dismiss her concerns and suffering, thereby endangering her and others. And the Adams County District Attorney doubled down by assigning a biased attorney to prosecute her case. The actions of these officials – all men – caused as much trauma as the hands around her neck. 

Pam’s is a harrowing story not just of domestic violence, but of systemic failure in which victims are dismissed, shamed, and blamed. Hers is the classic example of why so many victims choose not to come forward – the process of seeking justice is just as bad, if not worse, as the abuse itself.

We hear again that Domestic Violence abusers follow a playbook – previous relationships with violence, infidelity, alcohol abuse, explosive rage, stalking. This is not normal. If you are in a relationship with these signs, you need to leave. What Pam wants everyone to know is that Domestic Violence happens to strong, confident people. There is no shame in what happened to you, and you deserve better. 

Additional information about Pam’s experience can be found here:
- Alex Fine’s Haven Shelter Fundraiser: https://www.gofundme.com/f/almost-home-run-for-dv-victims
- Sports Illustrated: https://www.si.com/college/2017/02/03/colorado-football-joe-tumpkin-assault-case
- Westword: https://www.westword.com/news/for-pam-fine-surviving-a-cu-coach-joe-tumpkins-abuse-was-just-the-beginning-11062956
- Associated Press: https://apnews.com/f54a3b268aca4058bf7d7a74d28445ab

For information about the correlation between strangulation and lethality: https://www.strangulationtraininginstitute.com/all-abusers-are-not-equal-new-ipv-research-reveals-an-indicator-of-deadly-abuse/

Survivor Pam Fine - Systemic Failures in Domestic Violence


      A podcast dedicated to ending Domestic Violence by amplifying the voices of survivors. Formed in memory of Kathleen (Rafferty) Petrocco, sister of the podcast host, a victim of domestic violence whose life was cut short before she could become a survivor. Join us to listen to, learn from, and pick up the torch of survivors to end Domestic Violence. 
    

Distasteful Conversations

Details

Recent Episodes