The Deal with Animals with Marika S. Bell

Episode 3 of Series 16: The Captivity Conversation - Transcript In this episode, animal welfare scientist Lauri Torgerson‑White unpacks how sanctuaries can become true multispecies communities, exploring what agency, choice, and ethical care look like when we design environments with animals rather than for them.Guest Bios: Lauri Torgerson‑White is an agency‑focused animal welfare scientist working with New York University’s All Animals Initiative and serving as Director of Sanctuary Animal Well‑Being at Operation Angels. Her career spans the Detroit Zoo’s Center for Zoo Animal Welfare, Mercy For Animals, and Farm Sanctuary, where she helped establish sanctuary‑based research programs. Her scholarship explores animal cognition, behaviour, welfare, and ethical research design across farmed and zoological settings. Guided by data and driven by compassion, Lauri’s work asks how humans can re‑enter multispecies communities with humility, curiosity, and a commitment to shared flourishing.Book Recommendations: The Arrogant Ape: And A New Way To See Humanityby Christine Webb and Birds as Individuals by Len HowardRelated Links:TDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List Ep 111. What the Chicken Knows...with Author Sy MontgomeryEp 92. Speciesism and The Chicken Encounter That Changed Everything with Pattrice Jones of VINE Animal SanctuaryMentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Minis-series coming Summer 2026

Episode Two of Series 16: The Captivity Question- Transcript (linked)Primatologist, Andy Gray explains how primate sanctuaries exist to provide lifelong, species‑appropriate care—especially social companionship—for primates who often arrive with trauma, abnormal behaviors, or complex medical needs. She describes the growing demand for sanctuary placement driven by illegal pet trade, confiscations, and increased awareness, alongside the emotional and logistical challenges sanctuaries and staff face. She also highlights the importance of collaboration between sanctuaries and zoos, the rise of operant conditioning for stress‑free veterinary care, and the urgent need for legislation like the Captive Primate Safety Act.Guest Bio: Amanda “Andy” Gray is the Director of NAPSA and has worked with primates since 2008, beginning as a volunteer at Chimpanzee Sanctuary Northwest and the Chimpanzee and Human Communication Institute while studying Primate Behavior, Ecology, and Anthropology at Central Washington University. She earned her Master’s in Primate Conservation at Oxford Brookes University, conducting research on slow lorises affected by the illegal pet trade, and later worked as a caregiver and fundraiser at several NAPSA member sanctuaries, including Save the Chimps. Most recently, she served as Program Manager for Second Chance Chimpanzee Refuge Liberia, overseeing operations, strategy, and development; she now lives in Southern California with her family and two rescue dogs.Book Recommendations: Holidays on Ice by David SedarisRelated Links:WILDLIFE CONFISCATION NETWORKCaptive Primate Safety Act- 2008Great Ape Heart ProjectEp 133. Speaking Across SpeciesEp 124 What Can A Matriarchal Society Teach UsEp 93. Human Relevant TestingMentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Minis-series coming Summer 2026

Episode One of Series 16 : The Captivity Question - Transcript (linked)Dr. Susan Friedman joins me to explore captivity through the lens of behaviour science — from choice and control to “freeing the operant,” honouring the no, and shaping the yes. We discuss how environments shape agency for animals in zoos, sanctuaries, and homes, and what true welfare requires.Women Podcaster Awards- VoteGuest Bio: Dr. Susan G. Friedman is a professor emeritus of psychology at Utah State University and the founder of Behavior Works Consulting. She has co‑authored chapters in five veterinary texts, and her widely read articles have been translated into 17 languages. Susan’s online course, How Behavior Works, has reached students in 64 countries, and she consults internationally with zoos and animal‑care organizations, including teaching for BIAZA’s Animal Trainer Accreditation program. She served on the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service’s California Condor Recovery Team and currently chairs the Scientific Advisory Committee for American Humane’s Film and TV Unit. Her newest initiative, Behavior Works Zoo School, launches in 2026.Susan's Book Recommendations: The Science of Consequences: How They Affect Genes, Change the Brain, and Impact Our World by Susan SchneiderRelated Links: bwzs.orgbehaviourworks.orgTDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List - USAUK Guest Book Rec List Behaviour Science Glossary- Operant BehaviourBehaviour animals learn because it works — it produces outcomes they want or helps them avoid outcomes they don’t. It’s shaped by consequences, not instinct.Freeing the OperantDesigning environments where animals can choose how to behave to get outcomes. Instead of training step‑by‑step, you provide meaningful reasons to behave and let the animal’s natural problem‑solving emerge.ReinforcersAnything an animal values enough to work for: food, social contact, exploration, novelty, comfort, problem‑solving. Reinforcers are the “reasons” animals behave.For‑Shortened ReinforcersA concept from Susan Schneider: boredom isn’t caused by small spaces but by limited access to meaningful reinforcers. Captivity reduces the variety of things animals can work for.Engaging EnvironmentsSusan’s preferred term over “enrichment.” Instead of adding extras, it means creating a lifestyle environment that naturally invites exploration, agency, and species‑typical behaviour.ContingencyThe relationship between behaviour and outcome: If I do X, Y happens. Animals constantly test these relationships to understand what they can control.Differential ReinforcementReinforcing one behaviour while not reinforcing another, so the animal learns which behaviour “works.” It teaches what to do, not just what not to do.Extinction (Behaviour Science)When a behaviour stops because it no longer produces the expected outcome. Not punishment — just a missing payoff. Susan discusses new methods that avoid extinction because it can be frustrating for animals.Poisoned Cue / Poisoned LabelA cue or word that has been paired with something unpleasant so often that it becomes aversive. For example, a dog who hears “come!” and expects scolding.Honouring the NoRecognising and respecting when an animal communicates discomfort or refusal — shifting weight, turning away, freezing, widening eyes. It’s the ethical foundation of cooperative care.Shaping the YesAdjusting our behaviour, tools, timing, or reinforcers so the animal can eventually say yes willingly. It’s about building consent, not forcing compliance.Dialogue (Human–Animal)A two‑way interaction where both individuals influence each other’s behaviour. Not negotiation — a responsive conversation built from cues and feedback.Study of OneTreating each animal as an individual learner rather than a representative of their species. Behaviour science is always personal.AgencyAn animal’s ability to make choices that matter — choices that influence their own outcomes. Agency is central to Susan’s welfare philosophy.Mentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Miniseries begins Summer 2026

The is the Spring Special Episode! Transcript McConnell describes learning the craft of fiction, developing protagonist Maddie McGowan, for her recently released murder mystery, 'Away To Me'. The conversation also explores what herding teaches about partnership and training without leashes, how breed and context affect behavior, and what she hopes the next generation of trainers advances.Women Podcast Awards- VoteGuest Bio: Patricia McConnell, PhD, CAAB is an internationally renowned animal behaviorist and author whose acclaimed books, including The Other End of the Leash, For the Love of a Dog, and The Education of Will, have sold more than 1.2 million copies. She saw clients whose dogs had serious behavioral problems for twenty-five years, and spoke around the world about canine training and behavior. A former adjunct professor in Zoology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, her nationally syndicated radio show, Calling All Pets, played in more than 110 cities for 14 years and her television show, Petline, aired on Animal Planet for two and a half years. Her debut novel, Away to Me, is her first venture into fiction, and has received rave reviews. She lives with her husband, Jim Billings, her Border Collies Skip and Maggie, and a spoiled flock of sheep on a farm in Southern Wisconsin, and can be found online at PatriciaMcConnell.com.Book Recommendations: The Salt Stones: Seasons of a Shepherd's Life by Helen WhybrowRelated Links: Book Recommendations: The Salt Stones: Seasons of a Shepherd's Life by Helen WhybrowRelated Links: Spring Special 2025Spring Special 2022Ep. 82 Expanding Understanding of Canine Behaviour with Suzanne ClothierTDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List TDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List Mentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Miniseries begins Summer 2026

Wrapping up Series 15: I’m filled with gratitude for the incredible insights shared by researchers on animal communication. From primates to birds, it's evident that the way we connect with animals echoes far beyond what we initially perceive. This series to be continued...(TBD)Introducing Series 16: We navigate the complex dynamics of captivity, I aim to challenge our preconceptions and invite diverse perspectives. Whether you're curious about our roles as caretakers or questioning the moral implications of captivity.Patreon and a call to Sponsor at... www.thedealwithanimals.com31d7784affd88366d6f8bd8a9f2f8d37e35c0ee9Mentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Miniseries begins Summer 2026