<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;The best way to build a horrible search product? Don’t ever measure anything against what a user wants.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Search veterans &lt;strong&gt;Doug Turnbull&lt;/strong&gt; (Led Search at Reddit + Shopify; Wrote &lt;em&gt;Relevant Search&lt;/em&gt; + &lt;em&gt;AI Powered Search&lt;/em&gt;) and &lt;strong&gt;John Berryman&lt;/strong&gt; (Early Engineer on Github Copilot; Author of &lt;em&gt;Relevant Search &lt;/em&gt;+ &lt;em&gt;Prompt Engineering for LLMs&lt;/em&gt;), join Hugo to talk about how to build Agentic Search Applications.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;We Discuss:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* The evolution of &lt;strong&gt;information retrieval&lt;/strong&gt; as it moves from &lt;strong&gt;traditional keyword search&lt;/strong&gt; toward “&lt;strong&gt;agentic search&lt;/strong&gt;“ and what this means for &lt;strong&gt;builders&lt;/strong&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* John’s &lt;strong&gt;five-level maturity model&lt;/strong&gt; (you can prototype today!) for AI adoption, moving from &lt;strong&gt;Trad Search &lt;/strong&gt;to&lt;strong&gt; conversational AI&lt;/strong&gt; to &lt;strong&gt;asynchronous research assistants&lt;/strong&gt; that reason about result quality.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* The &lt;strong&gt;Agentic Search Builders Playbook&lt;/strong&gt;, including why and how &lt;em&gt;you should “hand-roll” your own agentic loops&lt;/em&gt; to maintain control;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* The importance of &lt;strong&gt;“revealed preferences”&lt;/strong&gt; that &lt;strong&gt;LLM-judges&lt;/strong&gt; often miss (&lt;strong&gt;evaluations&lt;/strong&gt; must use real clickstream data to capture “revealed preferences” that semantic relevance alone cannot infer)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;strong&gt;Patterns&lt;/strong&gt; and &lt;strong&gt;Anti-Patterns&lt;/strong&gt; for &lt;strong&gt;Agentic Search&lt;/strong&gt; Applications&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;strong&gt;Learning&lt;/strong&gt; and &lt;strong&gt;teaching Search&lt;/strong&gt; in the &lt;em&gt;Age of Agents&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You can find the full episode on &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://open.spotify.com/show/3yuz89gqAhcMcdy3SZPe4X?si=AKl2jvIARD2Liw1bBH2Nng&amp;#38;nd=1&amp;#38;dlsi=2d2146ac32d54d73"&gt;Spotify&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vanishing-gradients/id1610318868"&gt;Apple Podcasts&lt;/a&gt;, and &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://youtube.com/live/H6ua9HjGq60?feature=share"&gt;YouTube&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a target="_blank" href="https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/a245e43c-3fa0-4f0b-a375-18aa14fd9364"&gt;You can also interact directly with the transcript here in NotebookLM&lt;/a&gt;: If you do so, let us know anything you find in the comments!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;👉 &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;Want to learn more about Building AI-Powered Software? Check out our &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=vgpod"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;Building AI Applications course&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;. It’s a live cohort with hands on exercises and office hours. Here is a &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=vgpod"&gt;discount code&lt;/a&gt; for readers. 👈&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Doug and Hugo are also doing a free lightning lesson on Feb 20 about &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/p/b297f3/how-to-build-your-first-agentic-search-application"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;How To Build Your First Agentic Search Application&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;em&gt;! &lt;/em&gt;You’ll walk away with a &lt;strong&gt;framework&lt;/strong&gt; &amp; &lt;strong&gt;code&lt;/strong&gt; to &lt;strong&gt;build your first agentic search app&lt;/strong&gt;. &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/p/b297f3/how-to-build-your-first-agentic-search-application"&gt;Register here to join live or get the recording after&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Links and Resources&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Guests&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://arcturus-labs.com/"&gt;Arcturus Labs (John’s website)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://softwaredoug.com/"&gt;Software Doug (Doug’s website)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-berryman-864b1713/"&gt;John Berryman on LinkedIn&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/softwaredoug/"&gt;Doug Turnbull on LinkedIn&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Books&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.manning.com/books/relevant-search"&gt;Relevant Search by Doug Turnbull &amp; John Berryman (Manning)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.manning.com/books/ai-powered-search"&gt;AI-Powered Search by Doug Turnbull (Manning)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/prompt-engineering-for/9781098156145/"&gt;Prompt Engineering for LLMs by John Berryman (O’Reilly)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Blog Posts&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://arcturus-labs.com/blog/2026/01/18/incremental-ai-adoption-for-e-commerce/"&gt;Incremental AI Adoption for E-commerce by John Berryman&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://arcturus-labs.com/blog/2024/11/21/roaming-rag--rag-without-the-vector-database/"&gt;Roaming RAG – RAG without the Vector Database by John Berryman&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://softwaredoug.com/blog/2025/09/22/reasoning-agents-need-bad-search"&gt;Agents Turn Simple Keyword Search into Compelling Search Experiences by Doug Turnbull&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://softwaredoug.com/blog/2025/10/15/a-simple-agentic-loop-with-just-python-functions"&gt;A Simple Agentic Loop with Just Python Functions by Doug Turnbull&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://softwaredoug.com/blog/2025/10/19/agentic-code-generation-to-optimize-a-search-reranker"&gt;Agentic Code Generation to Optimize a Search Reranker by Doug Turnbull&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://softwaredoug.com/blog/2025/11/02/llm-judges-arent-the-shortcut-you-think"&gt;LLM Judges Aren’t the Shortcut You Think by Doug Turnbul (Hugo’s 5 minute video below)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.inkandswitch.com/essay/malleable-software/"&gt;Malleable Software by Ink &amp; Switch (inc. Geoffrey Lit)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://hugobowne.substack.com/p/patterns-and-anti-patterns-for-building"&gt;Patterns and Anti-Patterns for Building with AI by Hugo Bowne-Anderson&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Other Resources&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://hugobowne.substack.com/p/the-rise-of-agentic-search"&gt;The Rise of Agentic Search, a recent VG Podcast with Jeff Huber&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/karpathy/status/1938626382248149433"&gt;Karpathy on Cognitive Core LLMs&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/softwaredoug/cheat-at-search?utm_campaign=eeeda8&amp;#38;utm_medium=partner&amp;#38;utm_source=instructor"&gt;Cheat at Search with Agents course by Doug Turnbull (use code: vanishinggradients for $200 off)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://luma.com/calendar/cal-8ImWFDQ3IEIxNWk"&gt;Upcoming Events on Luma&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.youtube.com/@vanishinggradients"&gt;Vanishing Gradients on YouTube&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.youtube.com/live/H6ua9HjGq60?si=hMP7-BXJtOK7Czbd"&gt;Watch the podcast video on YouTube&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=vgpod"&gt;Join the final cohort of our Building AI Applications course in Q1, 2026 (25% off for listeners)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Timestamps (for YouTube livestream)&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;00:00 How to Build Agentic Search &amp; Retrieval Systems&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;02:48 Defining Search and AI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;03:26 Evolution of Search Technologies08:46 Search in E-commerce and Other Domains&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;12:15 Combining Search and AI: RAG and LLMs&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;23:50 User Intent and Search Optimization&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;29:47 Levels of AI Integration in Search&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;32:25 Exploring the Complexity of Search in Various Domains&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;33:49 The Evolution and Impact of Agentic Search&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;34:07 Defining Terms: RAG and Agentic Search&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;34:52 The Research Loop and Tool Interaction&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;35:55 Formal Protocols and Structured Outputs&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;38:39 Building Agentic Search Experiences: Tips and Advice&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;41:50 The Importance of Empathy in AI and Search Development&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;54:30 The Role of UX in Search Applications&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;01:01:15 Future of Search: Malleable User Interfaces&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;01:02:38 Exploring Malleable Software&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;01:04:20 The Coordination Challenge in Software Development&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;01:05:23 The Impact of Claude Code &amp; Claude Cowork&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;01:06:22 The Future of Knowledge Work with AI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;01:12:39 Evaluating Search Algorithms with AI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;01:15:15 The Role of Agents in Search Optimization&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;01:29:55 Teaching AI and Search Techniques&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;01:34:25 Final Thoughts and Farewell&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;👉 &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;Want to learn more about Building AI-Powered Software? Check out our &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=vgpod"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;Building AI Applications course&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;. It’s a live cohort with hands on exercises and office hours. Here is a &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=vgpod"&gt;discount code&lt;/a&gt; for readers. 👈&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=vgpod&lt;/p&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Get full access to Vanishing Gradients at &lt;a href="https://hugobowne.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&amp;#38;utm_campaign=CTA_4"&gt;hugobowne.substack.com/subscribe&lt;/a&gt;</description>

Vanishing Gradients

Hugo Bowne-Anderson

Episode 68: A Builder’s Guide to Agentic Search & Retrieval with Doug Turnbull & John Berryman

JAN 23, 202688 MIN
Vanishing Gradients

Episode 68: A Builder’s Guide to Agentic Search & Retrieval with Doug Turnbull & John Berryman

JAN 23, 202688 MIN

Description

<p><em>The best way to build a horrible search product? Don’t ever measure anything against what a user wants.</em></p><p>Search veterans <strong>Doug Turnbull</strong> (Led Search at Reddit + Shopify; Wrote <em>Relevant Search</em> + <em>AI Powered Search</em>) and <strong>John Berryman</strong> (Early Engineer on Github Copilot; Author of <em>Relevant Search </em>+ <em>Prompt Engineering for LLMs</em>), join Hugo to talk about how to build Agentic Search Applications.</p><p><strong>We Discuss:</strong></p><p>* The evolution of <strong>information retrieval</strong> as it moves from <strong>traditional keyword search</strong> toward “<strong>agentic search</strong>“ and what this means for <strong>builders</strong>.</p><p>* John’s <strong>five-level maturity model</strong> (you can prototype today!) for AI adoption, moving from <strong>Trad Search </strong>to<strong> conversational AI</strong> to <strong>asynchronous research assistants</strong> that reason about result quality.</p><p>* The <strong>Agentic Search Builders Playbook</strong>, including why and how <em>you should “hand-roll” your own agentic loops</em> to maintain control;</p><p>* The importance of <strong>“revealed preferences”</strong> that <strong>LLM-judges</strong> often miss (<strong>evaluations</strong> must use real clickstream data to capture “revealed preferences” that semantic relevance alone cannot infer)</p><p>* <strong>Patterns</strong> and <strong>Anti-Patterns</strong> for <strong>Agentic Search</strong> Applications</p><p>* <strong>Learning</strong> and <strong>teaching Search</strong> in the <em>Age of Agents</em></p><p>You can find the full episode on <a target="_blank" href="https://open.spotify.com/show/3yuz89gqAhcMcdy3SZPe4X?si=AKl2jvIARD2Liw1bBH2Nng&#38;nd=1&#38;dlsi=2d2146ac32d54d73">Spotify</a>, <a target="_blank" href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vanishing-gradients/id1610318868">Apple Podcasts</a>, and <a target="_blank" href="https://youtube.com/live/H6ua9HjGq60?feature=share">YouTube</a>.</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/a245e43c-3fa0-4f0b-a375-18aa14fd9364">You can also interact directly with the transcript here in NotebookLM</a>: If you do so, let us know anything you find in the comments!</p><p>👉 <strong><em>Want to learn more about Building AI-Powered Software? Check out our </em></strong><a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=vgpod"><strong><em>Building AI Applications course</em></strong></a>. It’s a live cohort with hands on exercises and office hours. Here is a <a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=vgpod">discount code</a> for readers. 👈</p><p></p><p>Doug and Hugo are also doing a free lightning lesson on Feb 20 about <a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/p/b297f3/how-to-build-your-first-agentic-search-application"><strong><em>How To Build Your First Agentic Search Application</em></strong></a><em>! </em>You’ll walk away with a <strong>framework</strong> & <strong>code</strong> to <strong>build your first agentic search app</strong>. <a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/p/b297f3/how-to-build-your-first-agentic-search-application">Register here to join live or get the recording after</a>.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Links and Resources</p><p>Guests</p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://arcturus-labs.com/">Arcturus Labs (John’s website)</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://softwaredoug.com/">Software Doug (Doug’s website)</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-berryman-864b1713/">John Berryman on LinkedIn</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/softwaredoug/">Doug Turnbull on LinkedIn</a></p><p>Books</p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.manning.com/books/relevant-search">Relevant Search by Doug Turnbull & John Berryman (Manning)</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.manning.com/books/ai-powered-search">AI-Powered Search by Doug Turnbull (Manning)</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/prompt-engineering-for/9781098156145/">Prompt Engineering for LLMs by John Berryman (O’Reilly)</a></p><p>Blog Posts</p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://arcturus-labs.com/blog/2026/01/18/incremental-ai-adoption-for-e-commerce/">Incremental AI Adoption for E-commerce by John Berryman</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://arcturus-labs.com/blog/2024/11/21/roaming-rag--rag-without-the-vector-database/">Roaming RAG – RAG without the Vector Database by John Berryman</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://softwaredoug.com/blog/2025/09/22/reasoning-agents-need-bad-search">Agents Turn Simple Keyword Search into Compelling Search Experiences by Doug Turnbull</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://softwaredoug.com/blog/2025/10/15/a-simple-agentic-loop-with-just-python-functions">A Simple Agentic Loop with Just Python Functions by Doug Turnbull</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://softwaredoug.com/blog/2025/10/19/agentic-code-generation-to-optimize-a-search-reranker">Agentic Code Generation to Optimize a Search Reranker by Doug Turnbull</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://softwaredoug.com/blog/2025/11/02/llm-judges-arent-the-shortcut-you-think">LLM Judges Aren’t the Shortcut You Think by Doug Turnbul (Hugo’s 5 minute video below)</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.inkandswitch.com/essay/malleable-software/">Malleable Software by Ink & Switch (inc. Geoffrey Lit)</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://hugobowne.substack.com/p/patterns-and-anti-patterns-for-building">Patterns and Anti-Patterns for Building with AI by Hugo Bowne-Anderson</a></p><p>Other Resources</p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://hugobowne.substack.com/p/the-rise-of-agentic-search">The Rise of Agentic Search, a recent VG Podcast with Jeff Huber</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/karpathy/status/1938626382248149433">Karpathy on Cognitive Core LLMs</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/softwaredoug/cheat-at-search?utm_campaign=eeeda8&#38;utm_medium=partner&#38;utm_source=instructor">Cheat at Search with Agents course by Doug Turnbull (use code: vanishinggradients for $200 off)</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://luma.com/calendar/cal-8ImWFDQ3IEIxNWk">Upcoming Events on Luma</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.youtube.com/@vanishinggradients">Vanishing Gradients on YouTube</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.youtube.com/live/H6ua9HjGq60?si=hMP7-BXJtOK7Czbd">Watch the podcast video on YouTube</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=vgpod">Join the final cohort of our Building AI Applications course in Q1, 2026 (25% off for listeners)</a></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Timestamps (for YouTube livestream)</strong></p><p>00:00 How to Build Agentic Search & Retrieval Systems</p><p>02:48 Defining Search and AI</p><p>03:26 Evolution of Search Technologies08:46 Search in E-commerce and Other Domains</p><p>12:15 Combining Search and AI: RAG and LLMs</p><p>23:50 User Intent and Search Optimization</p><p>29:47 Levels of AI Integration in Search</p><p>32:25 Exploring the Complexity of Search in Various Domains</p><p>33:49 The Evolution and Impact of Agentic Search</p><p>34:07 Defining Terms: RAG and Agentic Search</p><p>34:52 The Research Loop and Tool Interaction</p><p>35:55 Formal Protocols and Structured Outputs</p><p>38:39 Building Agentic Search Experiences: Tips and Advice</p><p>41:50 The Importance of Empathy in AI and Search Development</p><p>54:30 The Role of UX in Search Applications</p><p>01:01:15 Future of Search: Malleable User Interfaces</p><p>01:02:38 Exploring Malleable Software</p><p>01:04:20 The Coordination Challenge in Software Development</p><p>01:05:23 The Impact of Claude Code & Claude Cowork</p><p>01:06:22 The Future of Knowledge Work with AI</p><p>01:12:39 Evaluating Search Algorithms with AI</p><p>01:15:15 The Role of Agents in Search Optimization</p><p>01:29:55 Teaching AI and Search Techniques</p><p>01:34:25 Final Thoughts and Farewell</p><p>👉 <strong><em>Want to learn more about Building AI-Powered Software? Check out our </em></strong><a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=vgpod"><strong><em>Building AI Applications course</em></strong></a>. It’s a live cohort with hands on exercises and office hours. Here is a <a target="_blank" href="https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=vgpod">discount code</a> for readers. 👈</p><p>https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=vgpod</p> <br/><br/>Get full access to Vanishing Gradients at <a href="https://hugobowne.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_4">hugobowne.substack.com/subscribe</a>