Grab a cup of tea and join us for a bonus episode on tarot. We learn about the cards from their patrician origins to the present day, when tarot is being used to subvert limiting tropes of gender and sexuality. A tarot deck begs some questions: what makes something art? And who decides? Some of the answers may surprise you. We meet the artists behind a queer, Southern, collective tarot deck, and hear from an educator at The Met how tarot can be a source of both beauty and resistance. Plus: Camille Dungy, host and tarot skeptic, gets a slightly apocalyptic reading from a fellow poet. Producers Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Eleanor Kagan take us behind the scenes: probing something that's not quite a material, but whose story is too dynamic not to share.

Guests:

Suhaly Bautista-Carolina, creator of Moon Mother Apothecary and senior managing educator of audience development, Education, The Metropolitan Museum of Art 
Marco Leona, David H. Koch Scientist in Charge, Scientific Research, The Metropolitan Museum of Art 
Allison Rudnick, associate curator, Drawings and Prints, The Metropolitan Museum of Art 
Alexander Chee, poet, author, and professor of English and creative writing, Dartmouth College 
Camille Dungy, poet and host of Immaterial

Slow Holler Tarot Artists:

JB Brager 
Corina Dross 
Miranda Javid 
Nic Jenkins

Objects mentioned in this episode:

Niki de Saint-Phalle (American, 1930–2004). <a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/843056" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Niki de Saint Phalle tarot cards</a>, 2002. 22 cards: illustrations ; Height: 5 1/2 in. (14 cm) ; Width: 3 1/8 in. (8 cm) + 1 booklet (48 unnumbered pages ; Height: 5 1/2 in. (14 cm)). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York (N6853.S255 S25 2002)

For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Eleanor Kagan.

Special thanks to Holly Phillips, Jessica Ranne-Cardona, Maria Schurr, E. Henderson, and Rachel Pollack.See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.

<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Grab a cup of tea and join us for a bonus episode on tarot. We learn about the cards from their patrician origins to the present day, when tarot is being used to subvert limiting tropes of gender and sexuality. A tarot deck begs some questions: what makes something art? And who decides? Some of the answers may surprise you. We meet the artists behind a queer, Southern, collective tarot deck, and hear from an educator at The Met how tarot can be a source of both beauty and resistance. Plus: Camille Dungy, host and tarot skeptic, gets a slightly apocalyptic reading from a fellow poet. Producers Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Eleanor Kagan take us behind the scenes: probing something that's not quite a material, but whose story is too dynamic not to share.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Guests:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Suhaly Bautista-Carolina&lt;/strong&gt;, creator of Moon Mother Apothecary and senior managing educator of audience development, Education, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Marco Leona&lt;/strong&gt;, David H. Koch Scientist in Charge, Scientific Research, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Allison Rudnick&lt;/strong&gt;, associate curator, Drawings and Prints, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Alexander Chee&lt;/strong&gt;, poet, author, and professor of English and creative writing, Dartmouth College&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Camille Dungy&lt;/strong&gt;, poet and host of &lt;em&gt;Immaterial&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Slow Holler Tarot Artists:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;JB Brager&lt;br&gt;
Corina Dross&lt;br&gt;
Miranda Javid&lt;br&gt;
Nic Jenkins&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Objects mentioned in this episode:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Niki de Saint-Phalle (American, 1930–2004). &lt;a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/843056" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"&gt;Niki de Saint Phalle tarot cards&lt;/a&gt;, 2002. 22 cards: illustrations ; Height: 5 1/2 in. (14 cm) ; Width: 3 1/8 in. (8 cm) + 1 booklet (48 unnumbered pages ; Height: 5 1/2 in. (14 cm)). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York (N6853.S255 S25 2002)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;#MetImmaterial&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Eleanor Kagan.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Special thanks to Holly Phillips, Jessica Ranne-Cardona, Maria Schurr, E. Henderson, and Rachel Pollack.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;See &lt;a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener"&gt;omnystudio.com/listener&lt;/a&gt; for privacy information.&lt;/p&gt;</description>

Grab a cup of tea and join us for a bonus episode on tarot.

Bonus Episode: Tarot

In the second part of our alchemical journey, we meet what ancient philosophers called the “noble” metals: mercury, silver, and gold. How did a nineteenth-century set designer harness one of the most captivating—and toxic—materials in the world and wind up as one of the fathers of photography? When does a coin go from a piece of stamped metal to an act of faith? And how did gold in Ghana go from dust in the water to a touchstone of language, story, and the strength of an empire?

Guests:

Yaëlle Biro, former associate curator for the Arts of Africa, African Art in The Michael C. Rockefeller Wing, The Metropolitan Museum of Art 
Daniel Carrillo, studio photographer 
Benjamin Harnett, independent scholar of ancient technology and digital engineer, The New York Times 
Marco Leona, David H. Koch Scientist in Charge, Scientific Research, The Metropolitan Museum of Art 
Irene Soto Marín, economic historian and assistant professor of ancient history, Harvard University 
Yaw Nyarko, professor of Economics, New York University 
Stephen Pinson, curator, Photographs, The Metropolitan Museum of Art

Objects featured in this episode:

<a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search?q=Louis-Jacques-Mand%C3%A9+Daguerre&amp;department=19" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Works of Louis-Jacques-Mandé Daguerre</a> (various) 
<a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search?q=coin&amp;department=13&amp;geolocation=Roman+Empire" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Roman coins</a> (various) 
<a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/314925" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Staff of Office: Figures, spider web and spider motif (ȯkyeame)</a>, 19th–early 20th century. Ghana. Akan peoples, Asante group. Wood, gold foil, nails, H. 61 5/8 x W. 5 3/4 x D. 2 1/4 in. (156.5 x 14.6 x 5.7 cm). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Gift of the Richard J. Faletti Family, 1986 (1986.475a-c)

For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong.

Special thanks to Alan Shapiro, Bobby Walsh, Lauren Johnson, and Kwabena and Rose Gyimah-Brempong.See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.

<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;In the second part of our alchemical journey, we meet what ancient philosophers called the “noble” metals: mercury, silver, and gold. How did a nineteenth-century set designer harness one of the most captivating—and toxic—materials in the world and wind up as one of the fathers of photography? When does a coin go from a piece of stamped metal to an act of faith? And how did gold in Ghana go from dust in the water to a touchstone of language, story, and the strength of an empire?&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Guests:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Yaëlle Biro&lt;/strong&gt;, former associate curator for the Arts of Africa, African Art in The Michael C. Rockefeller Wing, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Daniel Carrillo&lt;/strong&gt;, studio photographer&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Benjamin Harnett&lt;/strong&gt;, independent scholar of ancient technology and digital engineer, &lt;em&gt;The New York Times&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Marco Leona&lt;/strong&gt;, David H. Koch Scientist in Charge, Scientific Research, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Irene Soto Marín&lt;/strong&gt;, economic historian and assistant professor of ancient history, Harvard University&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Yaw Nyarko&lt;/strong&gt;, professor of Economics, New York University&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Stephen Pinson&lt;/strong&gt;, curator, Photographs, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Objects featured in this episode:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search?q=Louis-Jacques-Mand%C3%A9+Daguerre&amp;amp;department=19" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"&gt;Works of Louis-Jacques-Mandé Daguerre&lt;/a&gt; (various)&lt;br&gt;
&lt;a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search?q=coin&amp;amp;department=13&amp;amp;geolocation=Roman+Empire" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"&gt;Roman coins&lt;/a&gt; (various)&lt;br&gt;
&lt;a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/314925" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"&gt;Staff of Office: Figures, spider web and spider motif (ȯkyeame)&lt;/a&gt;, 19th–early 20th century. Ghana. Akan peoples, Asante group. Wood, gold foil, nails, H. 61 5/8 x W. 5 3/4 x D. 2 1/4 in. (156.5 x 14.6 x 5.7 cm). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Gift of the Richard J. Faletti Family, 1986 (1986.475a-c)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;#MetImmaterial&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Special thanks to Alan Shapiro, Bobby Walsh, Lauren Johnson, and Kwabena and Rose Gyimah-Brempong.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;See &lt;a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener"&gt;omnystudio.com/listener&lt;/a&gt; for privacy information.&lt;/p&gt;</description>

Let’s talk about the metals that break the rules

Metals, Part Two

Philosophers and scientists have tried for millennia to crack the code of alchemy: the art of turning lead into gold. But alchemy goes much deeper than that—it gives us a framework for turning metal into story. In the first of a two-part episode on the metals of alchemy, we explore iron, bronze, lead, and copper. Our stories go deep into the basement of The Met, and back in time to a waterlogged ancient tomb. You’ll hear about books that dazzle, puppets that weep, and the long lost sound of a 2000-year-old bell.

Guests:

Edward Hunter, armorer and conservator, Arms and Armor, The Metropolitan Museum of Art 
Marco Leona, David H. Koch Scientist in Charge, Scientific Research, The Metropolitan Museum of Art 
Ali Olomi, professor of Middle East, Islamic, and Global Southern history, Penn State Abington 
Kannia Rifatulzia, translator, In-depth Creative 
Defri Simatupang, archaeologist, North Sumatera Archaeology Center, Indonesia 
Zhixin Jason Sun, Brooke Russell Astor Curator of Chinese Art, Asian Art, The Metropolitan Museum of Art 
Yana Van Dyke, conservator, Paper Conservation, The Metropolitan Museum of Art

Objects featured in this episode:

<a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search?q=iron+armor&amp;department=4&amp;geolocation=Europe" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">European armor</a> (various) 
<a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search?q=zhong+bell&amp;searchField=All&amp;sortBy=Relevance&amp;pageSize=0&amp;material=Bells" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Zhong bells</a> (various) 
<a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/315894" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Puppet Head (Si Gale-gale)</a>, late 19th–early 20th century. Indonesia, Sumatra. Toba Batak people. Wood, copper alloy, lead alloy, water buffalo horn, paint, H. (without pull rope) 13 1/4 in. x W. 6 in. x D. 6 1/2 in. (33.7 x 15.2 x 16.5 cm). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Gift of Fred and Rita Richman, 1987 (1987.453.6) 
<a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/shnm/hd_shnm.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Shahnama (Book of Kings) of Shah Tahmasp</a>, ca. 1525–30. Opaque watercolor, ink, silver, and gold on paper. The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Gift of Arthur A. Houghton Jr., 1970 (1970.301.1–78)

For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong.

Field production by Tanita Rahmani.

Special thanks to Sheila Blair, Lauren Johnson, and G. Willow Wilson.See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.

<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Philosophers and scientists have tried for millennia to crack the code of alchemy: the art of turning lead into gold. But alchemy goes much deeper than that—it gives us a framework for turning metal into story. In the first of a two-part episode on the metals of alchemy, we explore iron, bronze, lead, and copper. Our stories go deep into the basement of The Met, and back in time to a waterlogged ancient tomb. You’ll hear about books that dazzle, puppets that weep, and the long lost sound of a 2000-year-old bell.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Guests:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Edward Hunter&lt;/strong&gt;, armorer and conservator, Arms and Armor, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Marco Leona&lt;/strong&gt;, David H. Koch Scientist in Charge, Scientific Research, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Ali Olomi&lt;/strong&gt;, professor of Middle East, Islamic, and Global Southern history, Penn State Abington&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Kannia Rifatulzia&lt;/strong&gt;, translator, In-depth Creative&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Defri Simatupang&lt;/strong&gt;, archaeologist, North Sumatera Archaeology Center, Indonesia&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Zhixin Jason Sun&lt;/strong&gt;, Brooke Russell Astor Curator of Chinese Art, Asian Art, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Yana Van Dyke&lt;/strong&gt;, conservator, Paper Conservation, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Objects featured in this episode:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search?q=iron+armor&amp;amp;department=4&amp;amp;geolocation=Europe" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"&gt;European armor&lt;/a&gt; (various)&lt;br&gt;
&lt;a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search?q=zhong+bell&amp;amp;searchField=All&amp;amp;sortBy=Relevance&amp;amp;pageSize=0&amp;amp;material=Bells" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"&gt;Zhong bells&lt;/a&gt; (various)&lt;br&gt;
&lt;a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/315894" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"&gt;Puppet Head (Si Gale-gale)&lt;/a&gt;, late 19th–early 20th century. Indonesia, Sumatra. Toba Batak people. Wood, copper alloy, lead alloy, water buffalo horn, paint, H. (without pull rope) 13 1/4 in. x W. 6 in. x D. 6 1/2 in. (33.7 x 15.2 x 16.5 cm). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Gift of Fred and Rita Richman, 1987 (1987.453.6)&lt;br&gt;
&lt;a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/shnm/hd_shnm.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"&gt;Shahnama (Book of Kings) of Shah Tahmasp&lt;/a&gt;, ca. 1525–30. Opaque watercolor, ink, silver, and gold on paper. The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Gift of Arthur A. Houghton Jr., 1970 (1970.301.1–78)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;#MetImmaterial&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Field production by Tanita Rahmani.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Special thanks to Sheila Blair, Lauren Johnson, and G. Willow Wilson.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;See &lt;a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener"&gt;omnystudio.com/listener&lt;/a&gt; for privacy information.&lt;/p&gt;</description>

Dive into the magic of iron, bronze, lead, and copper

Metals, Part One

Take a spin through The Met and you’ll find thousands of items made from linen. From a 3,500 year old sheet from Ancient Egypt, to a Giorgio Armani suit from the 1980s, linen has been a symbol of wealth and authority. But it's also been a tool for the oppression and exploitation of enslaved people in the American South, and an engine of work and comfort in the Victorian era. Suit up as we undress the legacy of linen through its complex, layered symbolism.

Guests:

Catharine H. Roehrig, curator emerita, Egyptian Art, The Metropolitan Museum of Art 
Rachel Tashijian, fashion critic and fashion news director, Harper’s Bazaar 
Jonathan Square, The Gerald and Mary Ellen Ritter Memorial Fund Fellow, The Costume Institute, The Metropolitan Museum of Art 
Cora Harrington, lingerie expert, founder of The Lingerie Addict, and author of In Intimate Detail: How to Choose, Wear, and Love Lingerie

Objects featured in this episode:

<a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/545138" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Length of Very Sheer Linen Cloth</a>, ca. 1492–1473 B.C. Egypt, New Kingdom. Linen, Greatest length 515 cm (202 3/4 in); Greatest width 161 cm (63 3/8 in); Weight 140 grams (5 oz.); 46 warp x 30 weft per sq. cm. The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Rogers Fund, 1936 (36.3.111) 
<a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search?q=armani&amp;material=Linen" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Armani linen suits</a> (various) 
<a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search?q=lingerie&amp;material=Linen" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Nineteenth-century lingerie</a> (various)

For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Eleanor Kagan.

Special thanks to Emilia Cortes, Jessica Regan, Mellissa Huber, Janina Poskrobko, Cristina Carr, Kristine Kamiya, Minsun Hwang, and Dr. Vanessa Holden.See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.

<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Take a spin through The Met and you’ll find thousands of items made from linen. From a 3,500 year old sheet from Ancient Egypt, to a Giorgio Armani suit from the 1980s, linen has been a symbol of wealth and authority. But it's also been a tool for the oppression and exploitation of enslaved people in the American South, and an engine of work and comfort in the Victorian era. Suit up as we undress the legacy of linen through its complex, layered symbolism.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Guests:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Catharine H. Roehrig&lt;/strong&gt;, curator emerita, Egyptian Art, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Rachel Tashijian&lt;/strong&gt;, fashion critic and fashion news director, &lt;em&gt;Harper’s Bazaar&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Jonathan Square&lt;/strong&gt;, The Gerald and Mary Ellen Ritter Memorial Fund Fellow, The Costume Institute, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Cora Harrington&lt;/strong&gt;, lingerie expert, founder of &lt;em&gt;The Lingerie Addict,&lt;/em&gt; and author of &lt;em&gt;In Intimate Detail: How to Choose, Wear, and Love Lingerie&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Objects featured in this episode:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/545138" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"&gt;Length of Very Sheer Linen Cloth&lt;/a&gt;, ca. 1492–1473 B.C. Egypt, New Kingdom. Linen, Greatest length 515 cm (202 3/4 in); Greatest width 161 cm (63 3/8 in); Weight 140 grams (5 oz.); 46 warp x 30 weft per sq. cm. The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Rogers Fund, 1936 (36.3.111)&lt;br&gt;
&lt;a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search?q=armani&amp;amp;material=Linen" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"&gt;Armani linen suits&lt;/a&gt; (various)&lt;br&gt;
&lt;a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search?q=lingerie&amp;amp;material=Linen" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"&gt;Nineteenth-century lingerie&lt;/a&gt; (various)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;#MetImmaterial&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;Immaterial&lt;/em&gt; is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Eleanor Kagan.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Special thanks to Emilia Cortes, Jessica Regan, Mellissa Huber, Janina Poskrobko, Cristina Carr, Kristine Kamiya, Minsun Hwang, and Dr. Vanessa Holden.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;See &lt;a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener"&gt;omnystudio.com/listener&lt;/a&gt; for privacy information.&lt;/p&gt;</description>

Suit up as we undress the complex legacy of linen

Linen

Deep in the riverbeds of Aotearoa New Zealand’s South Island, you’ll find a stone that’s as hard as steel and as green as the first breath of the earth. It’s called pounamu, or nephrite jade. It’s been formed into everything from adzes to earrings, including hei tiki, greenstone pendants handed down in Māori families for generations. Meet a pair of hei tiki—one with two hundred years of family history, and one that's being brought back to life in The Met. From their start as colonial institutions, you'll hear about the role museums can play in setting taonga, or treasures, free.

Guests:

Dougal Austin, senior curator, Mātauranga Māori, Te Papa Tongarewa The Museum of New Zealand 
Dan Hikuroa, senior lecturer in Māori Studies, University of Auckland 
Maia Nuku, Evelyn A. J. Hall and John A. Friede Associate Curator for Oceanic Art, Oceanic Art in The Michael C. Rockefeller Wing, The Metropolitan Museum of Art 
Lisa Ruaka Reweti, public programs presenter, Whanganui Regional Museum

Featured object:

<a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/43721" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Greenstone pendant (hei tiki)</a>. Aotearoa New Zealand, Maori. Nephrite jade (pounamu), H. 6 1/8 in. (15.5 cm); W. 3 in. (7.6 cm); D. 1 in. (2.5 cm). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, Gift of Heber R. Bishop, 1902 (02.18.315)

For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Rachel Smith.

Special thanks to Chanel Clarke and Cellia Joe-Olsen.See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.

<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Deep in the riverbeds of Aotearoa New Zealand’s South Island, you’ll find a stone that’s as hard as steel and as green as the first breath of the earth. It’s called pounamu, or nephrite jade. It’s been formed into everything from adzes to earrings, including hei tiki, greenstone pendants handed down in Māori families for generations. Meet a pair of hei tiki—one with two hundred years of family history, and one that's being brought back to life in The Met. From their start as colonial institutions, you'll hear about the role museums can play in setting taonga, or treasures, free.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Guests:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Dougal Austin&lt;/strong&gt;, senior curator, Mātauranga Māori, Te Papa Tongarewa The Museum of New Zealand&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Dan Hikuroa&lt;/strong&gt;, senior lecturer in Māori Studies, University of Auckland&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Maia Nuku&lt;/strong&gt;, Evelyn A. J. Hall and John A. Friede Associate Curator for Oceanic Art, Oceanic Art in The Michael C. Rockefeller Wing, The Metropolitan Museum of Art&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Lisa Ruaka Reweti&lt;/strong&gt;, public programs presenter, Whanganui Regional Museum&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Featured object:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href="https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/43721" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"&gt;Greenstone pendant (hei tiki)&lt;/a&gt;. Aotearoa New Zealand, Maori. Nephrite jade (pounamu), H. 6 1/8 in. (15.5 cm); W. 3 in. (7.6 cm); D. 1 in. (2.5 cm). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, Gift of Heber R. Bishop, 1902 (02.18.315)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;#MetImmaterial&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Rachel Smith.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Special thanks to Chanel Clarke and Cellia Joe-Olsen.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;See &lt;a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener"&gt;omnystudio.com/listener&lt;/a&gt; for privacy information.&lt;/p&gt;</description>

How did a Māori hei tiki find its way halfway across the world to The Met?

Jade

Stories of the materials used in making art are often as thought-provoking and illuminating as the objects themselves. From The Metropolitan Museum of Art, Immaterial examines the materials of art and what they can reveal about history and humanity. Each episode looks at a single material: paper, clay, jade, shells, and others, exploring the qualities and meanings that are often overlooked.

Immaterial

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