<description>Summary&lt;br /&gt;In this episode of the AI Engineering Podcast Ron Green, co-founder and CTO of KungFu AI, talks about the evolving landscape of AI systems and the challenges of harnessing generative AI engines. Ron shares his insights on the limitations of large language models (LLMs) as standalone solutions and emphasizes the need for human oversight, multi-agent systems, and robust data management to support AI initiatives. He discusses the potential of domain-specific AI solutions, RAG approaches, and mixture of experts to enhance AI capabilities while addressing risks. The conversation also explores the evolving AI ecosystem, including tooling and frameworks, strategic planning, and the importance of interpretability and control in AI systems. Ron expresses optimism about the future of AI, predicting significant advancements in the next 20 years and the integration of AI capabilities into everyday software applications.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Announcements&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;Hello and welcome to the AI Engineering Podcast, your guide to the fast-moving world of building scalable and maintainable AI systems&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Seamless data integration into AI applications often falls short, leading many to adopt RAG methods, which come with high costs, complexity, and limited scalability. Cognee offers a better solution with its open-source semantic memory engine that automates data ingestion and storage, creating dynamic knowledge graphs from your data. Cognee enables AI agents to understand the meaning of your data, resulting in accurate responses at a lower cost. Take full control of your data in LLM apps without unnecessary overhead. Visit &lt;a href="https://www.aiengineeringpodcast.com/cognee" target="_blank"&gt;aiengineeringpodcast.com/cognee&lt;/a&gt; to learn more and elevate your AI apps and agents.&amp;nbsp;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm interviewing Ron Green about the wheels that we need for harnessing the power of the generative AI engine&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;Interview&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;Introduction&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;How did you get involved in machine learning?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Can you describe what you see as the main shortcomings of LLMs as a stand-alone solution (to anything)?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;The most established vehicle for harnessing LLM capabilities is the RAG pattern. What are the main limitations of that as a "product" solution?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;The idea of multi-agent or mixture-of-experts systems is a more sophisticated approach that is gaining some attention. What do you see as the pro/con conversation around that pattern?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Beyond the system patterns that are being developed there is also a rapidly shifting ecosystem of frameworks, tools, and point solutions that plugin to various points of the AI lifecycle. How does that volatility hinder the adoption of generative AI in different contexts?&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;In addition to the tooling, the models themselves are rapidly changing. How much does that influence the ways that organizations are thinking about whether and when to test the waters of AI?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Continuing on the metaphor of LLMs and engines and the need for vehicles, where are we on the timeline in relation to the model T Ford?&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;What are the vehicle categories that we still need to design and develop? (e.g. sedans, mini-vans, freight trucks, etc.)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;The current transformer architecture is starting to reach scaling limits that lead to diminishing returns. Given your perspective as an industry veteran, what are your thoughts on the future trajectory of AI model architectures?&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;What is the ongoing role of regression style ML in the landscape of generative AI?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen LLMs used to power a "vehicle"?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working in this phase of AI?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;When is generative AI/LLMs the wrong choice?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;Contact Info&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/rongreen/" target="_blank"&gt;LinkedIn&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;Parting Question&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;From your perspective, what are the biggest gaps in tooling, technology, or training for AI systems today?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;Closing Announcements&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;Thank you for listening! Don't forget to check out our other shows. The &lt;a href="https://www.dataengineeringpodcast.com" target="_blank"&gt;Data Engineering Podcast&lt;/a&gt; covers the latest on modern data management. &lt;a href="https://www.pythonpodcast.com" target="_blank"&gt;Podcast.__init__&lt;/a&gt; covers the Python language, its community, and the innovative ways it is being used.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Visit the &lt;a href="https://www.aiengineeringpodcast.com" target="_blank"&gt;site&lt;/a&gt; to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;If you've learned something or tried out a project from the show then tell us about it! Email hosts@aiengineeringpodcast.com with your story.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;To help other people find the show please leave a review on &lt;a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-machine-learning-podcast/id1626358243" target="_blank"&gt;iTunes&lt;/a&gt; and tell your friends and co-workers.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;Links&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://www.kungfu.ai/" target="_blank"&gt;Kungfu.ai&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://www.llama.com/" target="_blank"&gt;Llama&lt;/a&gt; open generative AI models&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://openai.com/index/chatgpt/" target="_blank"&gt;ChatGPT&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://github.com/features/copilot" target="_blank"&gt;Copilot&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://www.cursor.com/" target="_blank"&gt;Cursor&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrieval-augmented_generation" target="_blank"&gt;RAG == Retrieval Augmented Generation&lt;/a&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://www.aiengineeringpodcast.com/retrieval-augmented-generation-implementation-episode-34" target="_blank"&gt;Podcast Episode&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://huggingface.co/blog/moe" target="_blank"&gt;Mixture of Experts&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_learning" target="_blank"&gt;Deep Learning&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_forest" target="_blank"&gt;Random Forest&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervised_learning" target="_blank"&gt;Supervised Learning&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_learning_(machine_learning" target="_blank"&gt;Active Learning&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://yann.lecun.com/" target="_blank"&gt;Yann LeCunn&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement_learning_from_human_feedback" target="_blank"&gt;RLHF == Reinforcement Learning from Human Feedback&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T" target="_blank"&gt;Model T Ford&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://github.com/state-spaces/mamba" target="_blank"&gt;Mamba selective state space&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://news.mit.edu/2021/machine-learning-adapts-0128" target="_blank"&gt;Liquid Network&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://www.promptingguide.ai/techniques/cot" target="_blank"&gt;Chain of thought&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://openai.com/o1/" target="_blank"&gt;OpenAI o1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky" target="_blank"&gt;Marvin Minsky&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_architecture" target="_blank"&gt;Von Neumann Architecture&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762" target="_blank"&gt;Attention Is All You Need&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilayer_perceptron" target="_blank"&gt;Multilayer Perceptron&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://builtin.com/data-science/dot-product-matrix" target="_blank"&gt;Dot Product&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_model" target="_blank"&gt;Diffusion Model&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_noise" target="_blank"&gt;Gaussian Noise&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://blog.google/technology/ai/google-deepmind-isomorphic-alphafold-3-ai-model/" target="_blank"&gt;AlphaFold 3&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://www.anthropic.com/" target="_blank"&gt;Anthropic&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="https://paperswithcode.com/method/sparse-autoencoder" target="_blank"&gt;Sparse Autoencoder&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;The intro and outro music is from &lt;a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/The_Freak_Fandango_Orchestra/Tales_Of_A_Dead_Fish/Hitmans_Lovesong/" target="_blank"&gt;Hitman's Lovesong feat. Paola Graziano&lt;/a&gt; by &lt;a href="http://freemusicarchive.org/music/The_Freak_Fandango_Orchestra/" target="_blank"&gt;The Freak Fandango Orchestra&lt;/a&gt;/&lt;a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/" target="_blank"&gt;CC BY-SA 3.0&lt;/a&gt;</description>

AI Engineering Podcast

Tobias Macey

Harnessing The Engine Of AI

DEC 16, 202455 MIN
AI Engineering Podcast

Harnessing The Engine Of AI

DEC 16, 202455 MIN

Description

Summary<br />In this episode of the AI Engineering Podcast Ron Green, co-founder and CTO of KungFu AI, talks about the evolving landscape of AI systems and the challenges of harnessing generative AI engines. Ron shares his insights on the limitations of large language models (LLMs) as standalone solutions and emphasizes the need for human oversight, multi-agent systems, and robust data management to support AI initiatives. He discusses the potential of domain-specific AI solutions, RAG approaches, and mixture of experts to enhance AI capabilities while addressing risks. The conversation also explores the evolving AI ecosystem, including tooling and frameworks, strategic planning, and the importance of interpretability and control in AI systems. Ron expresses optimism about the future of AI, predicting significant advancements in the next 20 years and the integration of AI capabilities into everyday software applications.<br /><br /><br />Announcements<br /><ul><li>Hello and welcome to the AI Engineering Podcast, your guide to the fast-moving world of building scalable and maintainable AI systems</li><li>Seamless data integration into AI applications often falls short, leading many to adopt RAG methods, which come with high costs, complexity, and limited scalability. Cognee offers a better solution with its open-source semantic memory engine that automates data ingestion and storage, creating dynamic knowledge graphs from your data. Cognee enables AI agents to understand the meaning of your data, resulting in accurate responses at a lower cost. Take full control of your data in LLM apps without unnecessary overhead. Visit <a href="https://www.aiengineeringpodcast.com/cognee" target="_blank">aiengineeringpodcast.com/cognee</a> to learn more and elevate your AI apps and agents.&nbsp;</li><li>Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm interviewing Ron Green about the wheels that we need for harnessing the power of the generative AI engine</li></ul>Interview<br /><ul><li>Introduction</li><li>How did you get involved in machine learning?</li><li>Can you describe what you see as the main shortcomings of LLMs as a stand-alone solution (to anything)?</li><li>The most established vehicle for harnessing LLM capabilities is the RAG pattern. What are the main limitations of that as a "product" solution?</li><li>The idea of multi-agent or mixture-of-experts systems is a more sophisticated approach that is gaining some attention. What do you see as the pro/con conversation around that pattern?</li><li>Beyond the system patterns that are being developed there is also a rapidly shifting ecosystem of frameworks, tools, and point solutions that plugin to various points of the AI lifecycle. How does that volatility hinder the adoption of generative AI in different contexts?<ul><li>In addition to the tooling, the models themselves are rapidly changing. How much does that influence the ways that organizations are thinking about whether and when to test the waters of AI?</li></ul></li><li>Continuing on the metaphor of LLMs and engines and the need for vehicles, where are we on the timeline in relation to the model T Ford?<ul><li>What are the vehicle categories that we still need to design and develop? (e.g. sedans, mini-vans, freight trucks, etc.)</li></ul></li><li>The current transformer architecture is starting to reach scaling limits that lead to diminishing returns. Given your perspective as an industry veteran, what are your thoughts on the future trajectory of AI model architectures?<ul><li>What is the ongoing role of regression style ML in the landscape of generative AI?</li></ul></li><li>What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen LLMs used to power a "vehicle"?</li><li>What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working in this phase of AI?</li><li>When is generative AI/LLMs the wrong choice?</li></ul>Contact Info<br /><ul><li><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/rongreen/" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a></li></ul>Parting Question<br /><ul><li>From your perspective, what are the biggest gaps in tooling, technology, or training for AI systems today?</li></ul>Closing Announcements<br /><ul><li>Thank you for listening! Don't forget to check out our other shows. The <a href="https://www.dataengineeringpodcast.com" target="_blank">Data Engineering Podcast</a> covers the latest on modern data management. <a href="https://www.pythonpodcast.com" target="_blank">Podcast.__init__</a> covers the Python language, its community, and the innovative ways it is being used.</li><li>Visit the <a href="https://www.aiengineeringpodcast.com" target="_blank">site</a> to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes.</li><li>If you've learned something or tried out a project from the show then tell us about it! Email [email protected] with your story.</li><li>To help other people find the show please leave a review on <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-machine-learning-podcast/id1626358243" target="_blank">iTunes</a> and tell your friends and co-workers.</li></ul>Links<br /><ul><li><a href="https://www.kungfu.ai/" target="_blank">Kungfu.ai</a></li><li><a href="https://www.llama.com/" target="_blank">Llama</a> open generative AI models</li><li><a href="https://openai.com/index/chatgpt/" target="_blank">ChatGPT</a></li><li><a href="https://github.com/features/copilot" target="_blank">Copilot</a></li><li><a href="https://www.cursor.com/" target="_blank">Cursor</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrieval-augmented_generation" target="_blank">RAG == Retrieval Augmented Generation</a><ul><li><a href="https://www.aiengineeringpodcast.com/retrieval-augmented-generation-implementation-episode-34" target="_blank">Podcast Episode</a></li></ul></li><li><a href="https://huggingface.co/blog/moe" target="_blank">Mixture of Experts</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_learning" target="_blank">Deep Learning</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_forest" target="_blank">Random Forest</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervised_learning" target="_blank">Supervised Learning</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_learning_(machine_learning" target="_blank">Active Learning</a>)</li><li><a href="https://yann.lecun.com/" target="_blank">Yann LeCunn</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement_learning_from_human_feedback" target="_blank">RLHF == Reinforcement Learning from Human Feedback</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T" target="_blank">Model T Ford</a></li><li><a href="https://github.com/state-spaces/mamba" target="_blank">Mamba selective state space</a></li><li><a href="https://news.mit.edu/2021/machine-learning-adapts-0128" target="_blank">Liquid Network</a></li><li><a href="https://www.promptingguide.ai/techniques/cot" target="_blank">Chain of thought</a></li><li><a href="https://openai.com/o1/" target="_blank">OpenAI o1</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky" target="_blank">Marvin Minsky</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_architecture" target="_blank">Von Neumann Architecture</a></li><li><a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762" target="_blank">Attention Is All You Need</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilayer_perceptron" target="_blank">Multilayer Perceptron</a></li><li><a href="https://builtin.com/data-science/dot-product-matrix" target="_blank">Dot Product</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_model" target="_blank">Diffusion Model</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_noise" target="_blank">Gaussian Noise</a></li><li><a href="https://blog.google/technology/ai/google-deepmind-isomorphic-alphafold-3-ai-model/" target="_blank">AlphaFold 3</a></li><li><a href="https://www.anthropic.com/" target="_blank">Anthropic</a></li><li><a href="https://paperswithcode.com/method/sparse-autoencoder" target="_blank">Sparse Autoencoder</a></li></ul>The intro and outro music is from <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/The_Freak_Fandango_Orchestra/Tales_Of_A_Dead_Fish/Hitmans_Lovesong/" target="_blank">Hitman's Lovesong feat. Paola Graziano</a> by <a href="http://freemusicarchive.org/music/The_Freak_Fandango_Orchestra/" target="_blank">The Freak Fandango Orchestra</a>/<a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/" target="_blank">CC BY-SA 3.0</a>