<p>The tech gap between China and the West is closing fast. But why did the land that invented paper and gunpowder ever fall behind? </p><p>Debin Ma is the world’s leading economic historian of East Asia. In this fourth episode of our Great Divergence series, he approaches the making of the modern world from an eastern perspective. We discuss why China fell behind, why Japan modernised early, and why East Asia has experienced so many economic miracles. We also discuss China’s recent transformation – a transformation that Ma has witnessed firsthand. </p><p><br></p><p><strong>LINKS AND REFERENCES</strong></p><p>Do you prefer reading to listening? You can find⁠ a summarised essay ⁠of this conversation, with a bibliography, at our series page:<a href="https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/podcasts/" target="_blank" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer">⁠ ⁠https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/podcasts/⁠⁠</a></p><p><br></p><p><strong>GREAT DIVERGENCE: THE MAKING OF THE MODERN WORLD</strong></p><p><em>This episode is part of a series produced by Warwick University’s</em><a href="https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/" target="_blank" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer">⁠<em> </em>⁠<em>CAGE Research Centre</em>⁠⁠</a><em> in collaboration with</em><a href="https://onhumans.substack.com/about" target="_blank" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer">⁠<em> </em>⁠<em>On Humans</em>⁠</a><em>, searching for explanations to why Western Europe and North America emerged as the most affluent and technologically advanced regions of the modern world. Guided by six expert guests, including a winner of the 2025 Nobel Prize in economics, we approach this topic with balance and breadth, exploring everything from colonialism and fossil fuels to science and technology. </em></p><p><em>1 | Why the West? Colonies, fossil fuels, and lessons from China (Kenneth Pomeranz)</em></p><p><em>2 | Why did so many inventions come from Europe? (Joel Mokyr)</em></p><p><em>3 | Why did the Industrial Revolution happen in Britain? (Robert Allen)  </em></p><p><em>4 | A view from the East: China, Japan, and the other paths to prosperity (Debin Ma)</em></p><p><em>5 | The big picture: Measuring the origins of the modern world (Bishnupriya Gupta and Stephen Broadberry)</em></p><p><br></p><p><strong>NAMES MENTIONED</strong></p><p>Joseph Needham | Kenneth Pomeranz | Joel Mokyr | Robert Allen | Francis Fukuyama | Jared Rubin | Yin Weiwen | Kaiser Kuo | Deng Xiaoping | Yasheng Huang</p><p> </p><p><strong>KEYWORDS</strong></p><p>Economics | History | Global Economic History | Industrial Revolution | Chinese history | Japanese history | Developmental Economics | Needham Puzzle | Needham Question | Qianlong Emperor | Macartney embassy | Meiji Japan | Iwakura mission |  Age heaping | Comparative development | State capacity | Modern fiscal state | History of taxation | Industrial Policy | History of Technology | Human capital</p><p><br></p><p><strong>INFO</strong></p><p>Guest: Debin Ma (Fudan University and All Souls College, University of Oxford)   <a href="https://economics.northwestern.edu/people/directory/joel-mokyr.html" target="_blank" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer">⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠</a></p><p>Host: Ilari Mäkelä (<a href="https://onhumans.substack.com/about" target="_blank" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer">⁠⁠⁠On Humans⁠⁠⁠</a>)</p><p>Contact: ⁠[email protected]</p>