The Media Leader Podcast

Is there a more important relationship in our industry than that between the CMO and the CFO? Given the macroeconomic environment – war, inflation, AI threatening to upend entire industries – how are the the interests of financial leaders changing as they relate to marketing? Nimmi Shah is a consultant finance director for the media, marketing and PR industries and has worked with major agency groups. Sameer Modha is the outcome measurement innovation lead at ITV, and one of the individuals spearheading the broadcasters’ in-development outcome measurement solution, Lantern. The duo join host Jack Benjamin to discuss how financial pressures are having downstream effects on media investment, why outcomes-driven measurement has emerged as the way forward in the boardroom, and how AI is leading to new opportunities and new conundrums for marketers. Is media still being spent on eyeballs? Or is it being spent on, as Modha puts it, "a receipt that says I got something that I can take to the CFO which will continue to justify my budget". Highlights: 1:34: How CFOs are navigating volatile macro pressures, and where the CMO fits 9:24: The move to outcomes measurement as a "recepit", and how it's benefitted tech platforms 23:58: Lantern, making TV show up in the nearer term, and the power of platform models 36:37: Are platforms marking their own outcomes homework? How auctions work, and why "the machine knows better than you". 46:48: Implications of the AI cost push: Is AI generating value? Will OpenAI compete with Google? 1:05:19: What happens if finance and media decisions become automated? Related articles: How Lantern will bring outcome measurement to TV — with Sameer Modha and Matt Hill How to make marketing indispensable to the CFO? Focus on incrementality Marketers must take an ‘investor mindset’ to bridge the CEO-CMO gap, McKinsey advises Ian Whittaker: How brands can truly ensure their CEO, CFO and CMO work together

In a new mini-series, former Media Leader editor-in-chief Omar Oakes is joined by former Dentsu International CEO, now AI strategist Hamish Nicklin to argue over the nuances of AI development and its use in the creative industries. In episode four, the duo debate for and against the prompt: “AI is turning the internet into a sea of slop, and journalists are helping it happen." In a change from prior episodes, taking the “for” side of the argument is Oakes, while Nicklin represents the “against” side, posing sceptical questions. "Stories come from people," Oakes insists. But are most journalists well-funded and well-positioned to provide quality reporting today? Can AI be used to help journalists, or is it mostly just being used to produce slop? Highlights: 1:00: Recent developments in AI: Esquire Singapore's 'interview', CTZN's AI-driven wine 6:58: Is AI useful for journalism? Oakes' experience using AI as an independent writer 26:59: 'Copy, paste, print': Have publishers devalued their own product and made it vulnerable to AI? 46:43: Second-order effects: Impacts on local news, failing business models, transparency and trust 59:56: Verdicts

This week, The Media Leader is embarking on its first ever Retail Media Week in Focus. The fledgling channel has been having a moment. Investment in retail media has grown substantially – in 2025, adspend in the channel grew 17.5% year on year, according to the latest AA/Warc figures. Brands are seeking to join up the ends of the funnel by targeting consumers based on their shopping habits and measuring directly the link between ad delivery and outcomes within closed-loop retail environments. But, as attendees heard at The Media Leader's Future of Brands event last week, with growth has come some scepticism – is retail media overhyped? Is it just useful for lower-funnel activations? How is it being defined on media plans? One of the largest retail media players here in the UK is Tesco. Recently, The Media Leader reported that Tesco Media had launched new video ad inventory on its website and app as it looks to offer brand advertising opportunities to marketers. Tash Whitmey is the managing director of the Tesco Media and Insight Platform. She joined host Jack Benjamin recently via video call to discuss the latest innovations the company is making, the state of the retail media market and how Tesco sizes up to global competitors like Amazon, and whether shopping habits are changing amid macroeconomic turbulence. Highlights: 4:36: What's driving growth in retail media? 9:11: Innovations in retail media allowing movement up the funnel 15:49: How does Tesco stand up against its competitors, many of which are global? 24:57: Measurement standardisation needed 27:23: How shopping behaviour is changing amid macroeconomic headwinds Related articles: Tesco Media launches premium video inventory across website and app Is AI accelerating Google, Meta and Amazon’s dominance? Takeaways from Big Tech’s Q1 Global partners with Sainsbury’s and Nectar360 on audio measurement tracking If retail media networks want to talk like ITV, they have to act like ITV

In a new mini-series, former Media Leader editor-in-chief Omar Oakes is joined by former Dentsu International CEO, now AI strategist Hamish Nicklin to argue over the nuances of AI development and its use in the creative industries. In episode three, the duo debate for and against the prompt: “AI means you don't need human creativity in ads anymore. You come to a media owner or platform, you tell them your objective, connect your bank account, and everything is done for you." Taking the “for” side of the argument is Nicklin, while Oakes represents the “against” side, posing sceptical questions. The argument derives from a claim by Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg made last May that Meta (and platforms like it) will be able to automate the entire planning, buying, and creative process on behalf of advertisers. As Zuckerberg described, this would be made possible by leveraging the data from billions of ad campaigns across its platforms, including what worked, what didn't, what audiences to target and with what creative. Just hype, or a reality the advertising industry will need to reckon with sooner rather than later? Highlights: 00:35: Recent developments in AI: Meta's "Claudenomics" rankings, Anthropic's Mythos 7:08: The technological case for Zuckerberg's argument. Do you just need a bank account, some brand assets, and a partner platform to make an effective ad campaign? 16:11: Is targeting more important than the big idea? Does creative still matter at the bottom of the funnel? What about brand building? 26:56: Unintended consequences: declining trust, impact on production businesses, K-shaped job market 35:47: Is it "intellectual snobbery" to avoid using AI and complain about AI content? Or is the creative process the point? 47:14: An experiment, reversion to the mean, and the power of prompting 52:09: Verdicts

In March, Meta and Google were found by a Los Angeles jury to have deliberately designed their platforms to be addictive in a way that was demonstrably harmful to a 20-year-old woman known as Kaley. TikTok and Snap were also previously defendants in the case before agreeing to a settlement ahead of trial. Meta and Google intend to appeal the decision. The news occurred as political leaders around the world, including here in the UK, have implemented or are considering implementing a ban on social media access for those under the age of 16. It also came after Meta lost a separate trial that found the tech giant misled consumers about the safety of its platforms and enabled harm, including child sexual exploitation. Meta has further come under scrutiny for admitting to earning billions in revenue from fraudulent ads. This confluence of events has led to a slow-motion reckoning for the advertising industry, which is responsible for providing ever-growing revenue to these Big Tech companies even as they are found by juries to be intentionally addicting users, leading to real world harms. Amid the public furore and continued legal backlash, how should business leaders in media and advertising react? Jess Butcher is the founder of ScrollAware, a not-for-profit aiming to convene business leaders to raise awareness of, and solutions to, online harms. Butcher, a former tech entrepreneur, sits down with host Jack Benjamin to consider the business community's response to the social media addiction trial verdict. Highlights:  9:27: The online safety debate: The harms of “ultraprocessed content” versus concerns of moral panic 22:35: ScrollAware’s mission as a “convenor of conversation” about responsibility in the attention economy. 28:44: Why brand managers feel “powerless” in challenging tech platforms – and why they shouldn’t 37:00: The collective action problem in the long tail 41:17: Policy changes to be considered Related articles: ‘Are we monetising addiction?’ Ad industry faces reckoning following social media addiction lawsuit verdict Government plans new powers to tackle online harms: ‘No platform gets a free pass’ Meta admits revenue from fraud and scam ads ‘might’ have accounted for 3-4% of total revenue Social media platforms linked to human trafficking, UN report finds Isba welcomes Government consultation on online harms: ‘Our hope is that enforcement will mean that more is done’