CMO Confidential

A CMO Confidential Interview with Kate Bullis and David Wiser, Managing Partners and Global Marketing Practice Leaders for ZRG Partners. Kate and David translate their extensive search experience to classify common mistakes into "movie themes" and share tips on how to recognize if you are directing or reading for a part in a disaster film. From "Play It Again, Sam," to "No, No, It's Really A CMO Role!" to "Death by Committee!" they describe the all-too-familiar plotlines and how to tear apart the hype from the facts. Hints: Look at the dashboard, listen to the questions and beware of the "Hands on the keyboard" role. Tune in to hear why companies should focus on outcomes versus qualifications and why you should always check your Zoom background. What are the five bad “movies” CEOs and boards keep remaking when they hire CMOs—and how do you avoid starring in one? Mike Linton sits down with ZRG Partners’ Kate Bullis and David Wiser to unpack 2025’s CMO market, why early-stage hiring should rebound, and how capital and IPO activity reset expectations from “profit at all costs” back to growth. They break down the most common failure modes—chasing a playbook, hiring an “orchestra,” titling a demand-gen job as “CMO,” forcing marketing to “stay in its lane,” and letting committees kill momentum—and the exact questions candidates and CEOs should ask to surface scope, KPIs, authority, and alignment. You’ll hear red flags like “hands-on keyboard,” why the KPI dashboard effectively *is* the job description, and how cross-functional interviews reveal whether a CMO will be a strategist or an order taker. David and Kate close with urgency discipline for searches and a three-year business-back plan for defining the role. CMO Confidential, Mike Linton, ZRG Partners, Kate Bullis, David Wiser, CMO hiring, marketing leadership, executive search, CEO, board of directors, hiring mistakes, KPI dashboard, hands-on-keyboard, demand generation, brand vs performance, org design, stay in your lane, death by committee, playbook vs framework, 2025 job market, private equity, IPOs, marketing strategy, B2B marketing, growth vs profitability --- Chapters 00:00 – Welcome & show setup 01:08 – Meet Kate Bullis & David Wiser (ZRG Partners) 01:32 – 2025 CMO job market outlook 02:56 – Where hiring rebounds first (startups vs. public) 04:24 – From profitability snapback to growth focus 05:35 – Theme 1: “Play it again, Sam” (playbook thinking) 06:48 – Frameworks over playbooks: why “fetch” fails 08:16 – KPIs as the real scope: the dashboard test 10:08 – Theme 2: “I want the orchestra” (do-it-all CMO) 12:44 – Red flag: “hands-on keyboard” and checkbox hiring 14:19 – Theme 3: “No, really, it’s a CMO role” (but it’s demand gen) 15:31 – B2B trap: title inflation and scope mismatch 18:25 – Measure what matters: aligning title, work, and KPIs 19:00 – Theme 4: “Stay in your lane” (the Yes Center) 20:20 – Sales/product-driven constraints and influence 22:00 – Theme 5: “Death by committee” (misalignment & vetoes) 23:18 – Fixing alignment: who decides and how 25:26 – Why bad movies still get made: urgency and drift 27:54 – The other mistake: lack of urgency in searches 28:43 – Funniest recruiting moments (Zoom era) 30:21 – Practical advice: define the next 3 years, then the role 31:29 – Wrap and where to listen See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A CMO Confidential Interview with Tom Stein, the Chairman and founder of Stein and Jann Schwarz, Senior Director of Marketplace Innovation at LinkedIn and founder of Think tank, The B2B Institute, who join us to discuss the 2025 Brand-to- Demand Maturity and the B2B Buyability studies. Tom and Jann share results showing the need to integrate brand and performance marketing in an era when the marketing funnel has collapsed needs fundamental re-thinking and Marketing Qualified Leads (MQLs) are still a key measure (in spite of data showing they've lost their usefulness). Tom and Jann explain why nearly all survey respondents acknowledge a problem but only 20% are taking action. Key topics include: why a good product or service are now "table stakes”; how buyer confidence, human connection and customer experience have become key Buyability differentiators; and the belief that B2B creative is way behind B2C on average. Tune in to hear why “demand-focused marketing" was one of the greatest brand misdirects of all time and a fabulous story of an alter boy accidentally dropping the Baby Jesus. The Truth Behind the Curtain in B2B: Brand + Demand, MQLs, and “Buyability” with Tom Stein & Jan Schwartz Description: Mike Linton sits down with Tom Stein (Stein) and Jan Schwartz (LinkedIn’s B2B Institute) to unpack new ANA research on brand–demand maturity and a bold operating model they call “buyability.” They cover why 80% of marketers say integration matters but aren’t doing it, why MQLs are failing modern buying groups, how to financialize creative and brand, and what CEOs/boards should actually measure to accelerate revenue. Chapters: 00:00 Intro & guest setup 02:36 Why a brand–demand maturity study now 05:36 The 80% integration gap 07:17 Org design: why teams move slowly 09:36 MQLs under fire (and better alternatives) 10:45 Creative quality in B2B: reality check 13:34 ServiceNow, Idris Elba, and distinctive assets 15:01 The CEO/CFO/Board disconnect 19:00 “Buyability” explained: becoming easier to buy 22:12 Brand as a full-funnel commercial driver 23:40 The funnel is broken; AI ups the stakes 26:59 Playing offense: fewer, better buyer-group leads 28:20 Financializing the case for change 29:56 The budget stat that shocked everyone 31:41 What to do now: category fame, trust, real metrics 34:41 Funniest stories and practical parting advice 37:35 Wrap & where to find more episodes Tags: B2B marketing,brand and demand,buyability,MQL,pipeline velocity,CMO Confidential,Mike Linton,Tom Stein,Jan Schwartz,LinkedIn B2B Institute,ANA,B2B brand,B2B demand gen,marketing measurement,go to market,Salesforce,ServiceNow,Idris Elba,B2B creative,category fame,board metrics,CFO,CEO,CRO,sales alignment,MarTech,lead gen,buyer groups,brand strategy,revenue growth See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A CMO Confidential Interview with Dr. Joel Shapiro, Managerial Economics & Decision Sciences Professor at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern, formerly Varicent Chief Analytics Officer. Joel discusses his NFL study including why some teams handle injury better then others, the idea of finding variables which can't be seen by the naked eye, and his conclusion that resilience has a lot to do with planning, resource deployment and the foresight to think about potential problems. Key topics include: the importance of back-ups; the ability to find business problems that can be solved with data; and how to use data and AI to predict "bad stuff." Tune in to hear about the "percent cash wasted measure," and how Joel's class beat Las Vegas on predicting last year's NHL playoff teams. **What NFL Injury Data Teaches Business About Resilience — with Joel Shapiro (Kellogg)** Northwestern Kellogg’s Joel Shapiro returns to CMO Confidential to unpack a surprising finding: predicting player injury isn’t a “failed use case” — and the lessons translate directly to how leaders design resilient organizations. We cover the data model behind injury prediction, Joel’s “percent cash wasted” metric, the real effect of injuries on winning (including offense vs. defense), why backups matter, and how to build purposeful resilience across sales, supply chain, and leadership. Plus: a student project that beat Vegas and a fearless (and funny) Super Bowl take. Chapters 00:00 Intro — Why this episode matters for executives 01:10 Joel’s remit: turning data & AI into business outcomes 03:19 Injury prediction isn’t a failed use case 05:45 Why the NFL: clean injury data and an 11-year dataset 07:32 What the model outputs: games likely to be missed 08:51 “Percent Cash Wasted”: paying for injured players 10:15 Do injuries really impact winning? The curve is flatter than you think 12:19 Offense vs. defense: wasted cash effects aren’t equal 13:47 Healthy one year, injured the next: who stays good? 14:36 The lever that breaks teams: losing a highly paid QB 15:25 Purposeful resilience vs. “toughing it out” 16:34 Backups matter — translating roster depth to business 18:29 If you can’t prevent every injury, recruit for availability 19:17 Business translation: resilience in sales, supply chain, and leadership 21:42 Treat resilience as strategy, not back-office insurance 24:22 Which companies are structurally resilient (and why scale helps) 24:49 Joel’s bold pick: the Bears’ weird start and a playful prediction 25:36 Data, betting, and integrity — what changes as information improves 27:25 Students vs. Vegas: NHL playoff models that won 28:20 How much data it really takes (rows, columns, and what matters) 29:54 Wrap and where to find more CMO Confidential Tags CMO Confidential, Mike Linton, Joel Shapiro, Northwestern Kellogg, data science, AI, predictive analytics, NFL injuries, sports analytics, resilience, business resilience, risk management, leadership, percent cash wasted, roster construction, backups, quarterback, offense vs defense, supply chain, sales teams, machine learning, predictive modeling, DraftKings, FanDuel, NHL, Kansas City Chiefs, Chicago Bears, C-suite, marketing leadership, podcast, YouTube chapters See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A CMO Confidential Interview with Michael Treff, the CEO of Code and Theory joins us for our 150th Show to share observations on the major forces impacting the B2B space. Michael details how "empowered buyers" are forcing sellers to increase focus on customer value creation and transforming marketing and sales from "leads to information" which is also shifting spending to capital expense. Key topics include: why the next AI frontier is customer experience; the need for companies to have both a long and short-term AI plans; why budgeting won't get any easier and; the gap between the CX problems and CX actions. Tune in to hear why you need to have an "AI plan for your humans" and learn if you need " a personalized relationship with your mustard." CMO Confidential #150: Michael Treff on B2B’s Year-In-Review, What’s Next, and How AI Will Actually Drive Growth** B2B is being rebuilt from the core. Michael explains why budgets are shifting from media to infrastructure, how the funnel is being rewritten by agentic search, and where AI must move from efficiency to growth. We also cover the KPIs that matter, budgeting realism for 2026, and three things every CMO should know by the end of next year. Sponsored by Typeface—the agentic AI marketing platform helping brands turn one idea into thousands of on-brand experiences. Learn more: typeface.ai/cmo. **Chapters** 00:00 Intro + show setup 01:00 Sponsor: Typeface — agentic AI marketing, enterprise-grade & integrated 02:00 Guest intro: Michael Treff, CEO of Code and Theory 03:00 B2B landscape: investment shifts, changing journeys, disintermediation 07:00 From MQLs to value: sales enablement and end-to-end outcomes 10:00 Mid-roll: Typeface ARC agents & content lifecycle 11:00 Why suites win: implementation and value realization after the sale 15:00 AI phases: Wave 1 (efficiency) → Wave 2 (growth) pressures on agencies 17:00 CX as the bridge: measure outcomes, not vanity metrics 22:00 Roadmaps, humans, and culture—planning beyond point tools 26:00 Budget reality check: deliberation, polarization, and trade-offs 29:00 Personalization vs. business impact—what to fund and measure 33:00 By end of 2026: know your human plan, AI maturity, and new journeys 35:00 2026 prediction: the ROI vice tightens—agencies must be consultative 36:00 Closing advice: “Interrogate everything yourself.” 38:00 Wrap + where to find past episodes 39:00 Sponsor close: Typeface—see how ASICS & Microsoft scale personalization **About our sponsor, Typeface**  @typefaceai  is the first multimodal, agentic AI marketing platform that automates workflows from brief to launch, integrates with your MarTech stack, and delivers enterprise-grade security—named AI Company of the Year by Adweek and a TIME Best Invention. Learn more: typeface.ai/cmo. **Tags** B2B marketing, enterprise marketing, customer experience, AI marketing, agentic AI, marketing ROI, sales enablement, Code and Theory, Michael Treff, Mike Linton, CMO strategy, marketing budget, personalization, Martech, Typeface See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A CMO Confidential Interview with Evan Wittenberg, Chief People Officer of VuMedi formerly CPO of Ancestry and Box, Google's Head of Leadership Development, and a Saturday Night Live Page. Evan discusses why HR has become a much tougher position over the last 5 years, AI's negative impact on leadership development, and the similarities between marketing and HR. Key topics include: his belief that every function should have a dedicated people partner; why "the burden of proof" is often higher for marketers; why he always interviews for "learning agility;" and why "doing the job you are hired for is better for your career than trying for "the next job." Tune in to hear questions marketers should ask in an interview and a great behind the scenes story from SNL Season 18. **What HR Really Thinks About Marketing — Evan Wittenberg (CPO) on CMO Confidential** Four-time Chief People Officer Evan Wittenberg sits down with host Mike Linton to unpack the real relationship between HR and Marketing: decision rights, how DEI evolves, AI’s impact on entry-level careers, why hybrid work threatens apprenticeship, and what great CMOs do differently at the exec table. Evan also shares hiring signals (what CPOs look for now), the right way to use engagement surveys, and a live-from-8H SNL story you won’t forget. **Guest:** Evan Wittenberg — CPO (VuMedi; ex-Box, Ancestry, Pivot Bio; Google/Wharton leadership) **Host:** Mike Linton — former CMO (Best Buy, eBay, Farmers), CRO (Ancestry) **Chapters** 00:00 – Welcome + sponsor message (Typeface) 02:00 – Evan’s background and today’s HR reality 03:30 – “Seat at the table” meets burnout and intractable problems 04:40 – Inside the COVID pivot: who owned it and why HR took point 06:10 – Should HR own cross-functional crises? Coordination vs. ownership 07:10 – HR ↔ Marketing parallels: everyone has an opinion, few have the brief 09:00 – Sponsor break (Typeface) 10:00 – DEI after the backlash: belonging, equity, and business need 11:30 – Pay parity and what still isn’t fixed 12:00 – AI’s real risk: erasing entry-level ladders and craft-building 13:30 – Hybrid work, lost apprenticeship, and how leaders must respond 15:10 – “People are our #1 asset” (or not): how to actually tell 16:10 – HR nirvana: solutions that serve both the company and the person 18:00 – How HR sees Marketing: service vs. business driver 21:10 – What great CMOs do: range (data ↔ creative) and business framing 22:40 – At the exec table: problem → data → options → choice → execution 24:20 – The higher burden of proof for HR and Marketing 24:40 – Should Marketing have a dedicated HR/People partner? 26:10 – What CPOs now screen for: learning agility 28:00 – AI fluency: no tourists, hands-on only 29:10 – Real collaboration vs. heroics and end-runs 30:40 – Due diligence for candidates: decision rights & cross-functional buy-in 33:00 – Extra interview questions worth asking (on both sides) 34:10 – SNL cold open rescue: the Rob Schneider story 38:30 – Career advice: do the job you have at 120% 40:00 – Sponsor close + sign-off CMO Confidential, Mike Linton, Evan Wittenberg, Chief People Officer, CPO, HR strategy, Marketing leadership, DEI, diversity equity inclusion, belonging, employee engagement, pay parity, hybrid work, return to office, mentorship, apprenticeship, AI in HR, AI in marketing, entry-level jobs, recruiting, learning agility, collaboration, decision rights, org design, people partner, HRBP, Box, Ancestry, Pivot Bio, Vmed, Google leadership, Wharton, SNL story, Rob Schneider, executive team, business outcomes, brand vs performance, Typeface, marketing operations, C-suite leadership, career advice See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.