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A ship. A hotel turned school. A childhood taught to keep secrets. Pamela Nicole Williams joins us to trace a rare, ground-level history of Scientology—from her parents’ early work around Hubbard in D.C. and training at St. Hill to life aboard the Royal Scotman before the Sea Org took full shape. Her memoir, Clearly Lies Are True, threads vivid scenes with careful research to show how a movement’s promises filtered into family routines, language, and choices that shaped a child’s sense of safety.

We explore the practices that defined those years: touch assists, TRs, personality tests, and the sales script built around “ruins.” Pamela explains how teens get “voluntold” into service, why labels like suppressive person keep people in line, and how sincere belief can coexist with control and abuse. She brings us into the moment repressed memories resurfaced—what it means to question your own mind, how secrecy trained in a high-control group amplifies silence, and why naming sexual abuse is both terrifying and liberating. Along the way, we connect personal timelines to Scientology milestones: early clears, St. Hill culture, the Royal Scotman’s shortages, and the pivot to the Sea Org.

This is also a story about repair. Pamela shares how writing became a tool for healing, how she told her adult daughters the truth to break generational silence, and why forgiveness—without forgetting—was the only way out of lifelong anger. We talk practical support too: she donates a portion of book proceeds to the Aftermath Foundation to help people who leave Scientology rebuild with housing, jobs, and community. If you care about cult recovery, childhood trauma, or the mechanics of indoctrination, you’ll find hard truths, clear language, and real hope here.

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Living the Dream with Curveball

On the living the dream with curveball podcast I interview guests that inspire.

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