What if uncertainty isn’t the problem—but the point?In this episode of the PennCLO Podcast, Dr. Jennifer Neumaier sits down with Penn CLO doctoral alum Dr. Lucrecia Grandolini about her chapter on leading through uncertainty from the book Leaders as Architects: Designing Organizations for Connection and Resilience, co-edited by Dr. Sharon Ravitch (University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education) and Dr. Ragu Krishnamoorthy, Director of the Penn CLO program. Drawing on her global experience across financial services, consulting, and clinical psychology, Lucrecia challenges the traditional “plan–predict–control” model of leadership—and offers a compelling alternative.Together, they unpack:Why uncertainty is both deeply human—and deeply misunderstoodThe hidden cost of control: how it erodes trust and psychological safetyThe “living iceberg” metaphor—and what leaders miss beneath the surfaceWhat uncertainty-friendly organizations actually look like in practiceFour essential leadership practices for thriving in complexityThis conversation is a powerful invitation to stop trying to eliminate uncertainty—and start designing for it.