The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers

<p>How can you be more relaxed about your writing process? <strong>What are some specific ways to take the pressure off your art and help you enjoy the creative journey? </strong>With Joanna Penn and Mark Leslie Lefebvre.</p> <p>In the intro, <a href="https://newsroom.spotify.com/2025-12-03/wrapped-audiobook-trends/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Spotify 2025 audiobook trends</a>; <a href="https://www.audible.com/about/newsroom/audible-and-tiktok-bring-best-of-booktok-sensations-direct-to-listeners" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Audible + BookTok</a>; <a href="https://www.authormedia.com/a-nonfiction-authors-guide-to-substack/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">NonFiction Authors Guide to SubStack</a>; <a href="https://openai.com/index/disney-sora-agreement/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">OpenAI and Disney agreement on Sora</a>; <a href="https://thenewpublishingstandard.com/2025/12/12/india-ai-licensing-publishing-transformation/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">India AI licensing</a>; <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/live/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Business for Authors January webinars</a>;</p> <figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><a href="https://creativepennbooks.com/collections/the-relaxed-author" target="_blank" rel=" noreferrer noopener"><img fetchpriority="high" decoding="async" width="1024" height="275" src="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Jo-Mark-Relaxed-montage-1024x275.png" alt="The Relaxed Author" class="wp-image-33539" srcset="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Jo-Mark-Relaxed-montage-1024x275.png 1024w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Jo-Mark-Relaxed-montage-300x81.png 300w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Jo-Mark-Relaxed-montage-768x206.png 768w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Jo-Mark-Relaxed-montage.png 1146w" sizes="(max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px" /></a><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Mark and Jo over the years</figcaption></figure> <p><a href="https://markleslie.ca/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Mark Leslie</a> LeFebvre is the author of horror and paranormal fiction, as well as nonfiction books for authors. He's also an editor, professional speaker, and the Director of Business Development at Draft2Digital.</p> <p>Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, and memoir as <a href="https://jfpennbooks.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">J.F. Penn</a>. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker.</p> <p>Mark and Jo co-wrote <em><a href="https://creativepennbooks.com/collections/the-relaxed-author" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">The Relaxed Author</a></em> in 2021. You can <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/2021/09/27/co-writing-the-relaxed-author/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">listen to us talk about the process here</a>.</p> <p>You can listen above or on&nbsp;<a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/podcasts/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">your favorite podcast app</a>&nbsp;or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights, and the full transcript is below.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Show Notes</strong></p> <ul class="wp-block-list"> <li>Why the &#8216;relaxed' author</li> <li>Write what you love</li> <li>Write at your own pace</li> <li>Write in a series (if you want to) </li> <li>Schedule time to fill the creative well and for rest and relaxation</li> <li>Improve your writing process — but only if it fits with your lifestyle</li> </ul> <p>You can find <a href="https://creativepennbooks.com/collections/the-relaxed-author" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title=""><em>The Relaxed Author: Take the Pressure Off Your Art and Enjoy the Creative Journey</em> on CreativePennBooks.com</a> as well as on your favorite online store or audiobook platform, or order in your library or bookstore. </p> <p>You can find Mark Leslie Lefebvre and his books and podcast at <a href="https://starkreflections.ca/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Stark Reflections.ca</a></p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Why the &#8216;relaxed' author? </h3> <p><strong>Joanna:</strong> The definition of relaxed is “free from tension and anxiety,” from the Latin <em>laxus</em>, meaning loose, and to be honest, I am not a relaxed or laid-back person in the broader sense.&nbsp;</p> <p>Back in my teens, my nickname at school was Highly Stressed. I’m a Type A personality, driven by deadlines and achieving goals. I love to work and I burned out multiple times in my previous career as an IT consultant.&nbsp;</p> <p>If we go away on a trip, I pack the schedule with back-to-back cultural things like museums and art galleries to help my book research. Or we go on adventure holidays with a clear goal, like cycling down the South-West coast of India. I can’t even go for a long walk without training for another ultra-marathon!</p> <p>So I am not a relaxed person — but I <em>am</em> a relaxed author.</p> <p>If I wanted to spend most of my time doing something that made me miserable, I would go back to my old day job in consulting. I was paid well and worked fewer hours overall.</p> <p>But I measure my life by what I create, and if I am not working on a creative project, I am not able to truly relax in my downtime. There are always more things I want to learn and write about, always more stories to be told and knowledge to share. I don’t want to kill my writing life by over-stressing or burning out as an author.</p> <p>I write what I love and follow my Muse into projects that feel right. I know how to publish and market books well enough to reach readers and make some money. I have many different income streams through my books, podcast and website.&nbsp;</p> <p>Of course, I still have my creative and business challenges as well as mindset issues, just like any writer. That never goes away. But after a decade as a full-time author entrepreneur, I have a mature creative business and I’ve relaxed into the way I do things.&nbsp;</p> <p>I love to write, but I also want a full and happy, healthy life. I’m still learning and improving as the industry shifts — and I change, too. I still have ambitious creative and financial goals, but I am going about them in a more relaxed way and in this book, I’ll share some of my experiences and tips in the hope that you can discover your relaxed path, too.</p> <p><strong>Mark</strong>: One of the most fundamental things you can do in your writing life is look at how you want to spend your time. I think back to the concept of: ‘You're often a reflection of the people you spend the most time with.’ Therefore, typically, your best friend, or perhaps your partner, is often a person you love spending time with. Because there’s something inherently special about spending time with this person who resonates in a meaningful way, and you feel more yourself because you're with them.</p> <p>In many ways, writing, or the path that you are on as a writer, is almost like being on a journey with an invisible partner. You are you. But you are also the writer you. And there’s the two of you traveling down the road of life together. And so that same question arises. What kind of writer-self do you want to spend all your time with?</p> <p>Do you want to spend all your time with a partner that is constantly stressed out or constantly trying to reach deadlines based on somebody else's prescription of what success is?&nbsp;</p> <p>Or would you rather spend time with a partner who pauses to take a contemplative look at your own life, your own comfort, your own passion and the things that you are willing to commit to? Someone who allows that all to happen in a way that feels natural and comfortable to you.</p> <p>I’m a fan of the latter, of course, because then you can focus on the things you're passionate about and the things you're hopeful about rather than the things you're fearful about and those that bring anxiety and stress into your life.</p> <p>To me, that’s part of being a relaxed author. That underlying acceptance before you start to plan things out.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">If the writing life is a marathon, not a sprint, then pacing, not rushing, may be the key.</h3> <p>We have both seen burnout in the author community. People who have pushed themselves too hard and just couldn’t keep up with the impossible pace they set for themselves. At times, indie authors would wear that stress, that anxiety, that rush to produce more and more, as a badge of honor. It’s fine to be proud of the hard work that you do. It’s fine to be proud of pushing yourself to always do better, and be better. But when you push too far — beyond your limits — you can ultimately do yourself more harm than good.</p> <p>Everyone has their own unique pace—something that they are comfortable with—and one key is to experiment until you find that pace, and you can settle in for the long run.</p> <p>There’s no looking over your shoulder at the other writers. There’s no panicking about the ones outpacing you.</p> <p>You’re in this with yourself.</p> <p>And, of course, with those readers who are anticipating those clearly communicated milestones of your releases.&nbsp;</p> <p>I think that what we both want for authors is to see them reaching those milestones at their own paces, in their own comfort, delighting in the fact their readers are there cheering them on.</p> <p>Because we’ll be silently cheering them along as well, knowing that they’ve set a pace, making relaxed author lifestyle choices, that will benefit them in the long run.</p> <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow"> <p>“I’m glad you're writing this book. I know I'm not the only author who wants peace, moments of joy, and to enjoy the journey. Indie publishing is a luxury that I remember not having, I don't want to lose my sense of gratitude.”&nbsp;—<em>Anonymous author from our survey</em></p> </blockquote> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Write what you love</h3> <p><strong>Joanna: </strong>The pandemic has taught us that life really is short. <em>Memento mori</em> — remember, you will die.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>What is the point of spending precious time writing books you don’t want to write?</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>If we only have a limited amount of time and only have a limited number of books that we can write in a lifetime, then we need to choose to write the books that we love. If I wanted a job doing something I don’t enjoy, then I would have remained in my stressful old career as an IT consultant — when I certainly wasn’t relaxed!</p> <p>Taking that further, if you try to write things you don't love, then you're going to have to read what you don't love as well, which will take more time. I love writing thrillers because that’s what I love to read. Back when I was miserable in my day job, I would go to the bookstore at lunchtime and buy thrillers. I would read them on the train to and from work and during the lunch break. Anything for a few minutes of escape. That’s the same feeling I try to give my readers now.</p> <p>I know the genre inside and out. If I had to write something else, I would have to read and learn that other genre and spend time doing things I don't love. In fact, I don't even know how you <em>can</em> read things you don't enjoy. I only give books a few pages and if they don’t resonate, I stop reading. Life really is too short.&nbsp;</p> <p>You also need to run your own race and travel your own journey. If you try to write in a genre you are not immersed in, you will always be looking sideways at what other authors are doing, and that can cause comparisonitis — when you compare yourself to others, most often in an unfavorable way. Definitely not relaxing!</p> <p><strong>Writing something you love has many intrinsic rewards other than sales.</strong></p> <p>Writing is a career for many of us, but it's a passion first, and you don't want to feel like you've wasted your time on words you don’t care about.</p> <p>“Write what you know” is terrible advice for a long-term career as at some point, you will run out of what you know. It should be “write what you want to learn about.” When I want to learn about a topic, I write a book on it because that feeds my curiosity and I love book research, it’s how I enjoy spending my time, especially when I travel, which is also part of how I relax.&nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">If you write what you love and make it part of your lifestyle, you will be a far more relaxed author.</h3> <p><strong>Mark:</strong> It’s common that writers are drawn into storytelling from some combination of passion, curiosity, and unrelenting interest. We probably read or saw something that inspired us, and we wanted to express those ideas or the resulting perspectives that percolated in our hearts and minds. Or we read something and thought, “Wow, I could do this; but I would have come at it differently or I would approach the situation or subject matter with my own flair.”</p> <p>So, we get into writing with passion and desire for storytelling. And then sometimes along the way, we recognize the critical value of having to become an entrepreneur, to understand the business of writing and publishing. And part of understanding that aspect of being an author is writing to market, and understanding shifts and trends in the industry, and adjusting to those ebbs and flows of the tide. But sometimes, we lose sight of the passion that drew us to writing in the first place. And so, writing the things that you love can be a beacon to keep you on course.</p> <p>I love the concept of “Do something that you love, and you'll never work a day in your life.” And that's true in some regard because I've always felt that way for almost my entire adult life. I've been very lucky. But at the same time, I work extremely hard at what I love.</p> <p>Some days are harder than others, and some things are really difficult, frustrating and challenging; but <strong>at the end of the day, I have the feeling of satisfaction that I spent my time doing something I believe in</strong>.</p> <p>I've been a bookseller my entire life even though I don't sell books in brick-and-mortar bookstores anymore—that act of physically putting books in people's hands. But to this day, what I do is virtually putting books in people's hands, both as an author and as an industry representative who is passionate about the book business.</p> <p>I was drawn to that world via my passion for writing. And that’s what continues to compel me forward. I tried to leave the corporate world to write full time in 2018 but realized there was an intrinsic satisfaction to working in that realm, to embracing and sharing my insights and knowledge from that arena to help other writers. And I couldn’t give that up.</p> <p>For me, the whole core, the whole essence of why I get up in the morning has to do with storytelling, creative inspiration, and wanting to inspire and inform other people to be the best that they can be in the business of writing and publishing.</p> <p>And that’s what keeps me going when the days are hard.</p> <p><strong>Passion as the inspiration to keep going</strong></p> <p>There are always going to be days that aren’t easy.&nbsp;</p> <p>There will be unexpected barriers that hit you as a writer.</p> <p>You’ll face that mid-novel slump or realize that you have to scrap an entire scene or even plotline, and feel like going back and re-starting is just too much.</p> <p>You might find the research required to be overwhelming or too difficult.&nbsp;</p> <p>There’ll be days when the words don’t flow, or the inspiration that initially struck you seems to have abandoned you for greener pastures.</p> <p>Whatever it is, some unexpected frustration can create what can appear to be an insurmountable block.</p> <p>And, when that happens, if it's a project you don't love, you're more likely to let those barriers get in your way and stop you.</p> <p>But if it's a project that you're passionate about, and you’re writing what you love, that alone can be what greases the wheels and helps reduce that friction to keep you going.</p> <p>At the end of the day, writing what you love can be a honing, grounding, and centering beacon that allows you to want to wake up in the morning and enjoy the process as much as possible even when the hard work comes along.</p> <p>“For me, relaxation comes from writing what I know and love and trusting the emergent process. As a discovery writer, I experience great joy when the story, characters and dialogue simply emerge in their own time and their own way. It feels wonderful.”&nbsp;— <em>Valerie Andrews</em></p> <p>“Writing makes me a relaxed author. Just getting lost in a story of my own creation, discovering new places and learning what makes my characters tick is the best way I know of relaxing. Even the tricky parts, when I have no idea where I am going next, have a special kind of charm.”&nbsp;&#8211; <em>Imogen Clark</em></p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Write at your own pace</h3> <p><strong>Mark:</strong> Writing at your own pace will help you be a more relaxed author because you’re not stressing out by trying to keep up with someone else. Of course, we all struggle with comparing ourselves to others.</p> <p>Take a quick look around and you can always find someone who has written more books than you. Nora Roberts, traditionally published author, writes a book a month. Lindsey Buroker, fantasy indie author, writes a book a month of over 100,000 words.</p> <p>If you compare yourself to someone else and you try to write at their pace, that is not going to be <strong>your</strong> relaxed schedule.</p> <p>On the other hand, if you compare yourself to Donna Tartt, who writes one book every decade, you might feel like some speed-demon crushing that word count and mastering rapid release.</p> <p>Looking at what others are doing could result in you thinking you're really slow or you could think that you're super-fast.</p> <p>What does that kind of comparison actually get you?</p> <p>I remember going to see a talk by Canadian literary author Farley Mowat when I was a young budding writer. I’ll never forget one thing he said from that stage: “Any book that takes you less than four years to write is not a real book.”</p> <p>Young teenage Mark was devastated, hurt and disappointed to hear him say that because my favorite author at the time, Piers Anthony, was writing and publishing two to three novels a year. I loved his stuff, and his fantasy and science fiction had been an important inspiration in my writing at that time. (The personal notes I add to the end of my stories and novels came from enjoying his so much).</p> <p>That focus on there being only a single way, a single pace to write, ended up preventing me from enjoying the books I had already been loving because I was doing that comparisonitis Joanna talks about, but as a reader.</p> <p>I took someone else’s perspective too much to heart and I let that ruin a good thing that had brought me personal joy and pleasure.</p> <p>It works the same way as a writer. Because we have likely developed a pattern, or a way that works for us that is our own.</p> <p>We all have a pace that we comfortably walk; a way we prefer to drive. A pattern or style of how and when and what we prefer to eat. We all have our own unique comfort food.</p> <p>There are these patterns that we're comfortable with, and potentially because they are natural to us. If you try to force yourself to write at a pace that's not natural to you, things can go south in your writing and your mental health.</p> <p>And I’m not suggesting any particular pace, except for the one that’s most natural and comfortable to you.</p> <p>If writing fast is something that you're passionate about, and you're good at it, and it's something you naturally do, why would you stop yourself from doing that? Just like if you're a slow writer and you're trying to write fast: why are you doing that to yourself?</p> <p>There’s a common pop song line used by numerous bands over the years that exhorts you to “shake what you got.” I like to think the same thing applies here. And do it with pride and conviction. Because what you got is unique and awesome. Own it, and shake it with pride.</p> <p>You have a way you write and a word count per writing session that works for you.</p> <p>And along with that, you likely know what time you can assign to writing because of other commitments like family time, leisure time, and work (assuming you’re not a full-time writer). Simple math can provide you with a way to determine how long it will take to get your first draft written. So, your path and plans are clear. And you simply take the approach that aligns with your writer DNA.</p> <p>Understanding what that pace is for <strong>you</strong> helps alleviate an incredible amount of stress that you do not need to thrust upon yourself. Because if you're not going to be able to enjoy it while you're doing it, what's the point?</p> <p><strong>Your pace might change project to project</strong></p> <p>While your pace can change over time, your pace can also change project to project. And sometimes the time actually spent writing can be a smaller portion of the larger work involved.</p> <p>I was on a panel at a conference once and someone asked me how long it took to write my non-fiction book of ghost stories, <em>Haunted Hamilton.</em></p> <p>“About four days,” I responded.</p> <p>And while that’s true — I crafted the first draft over four long and exhausting days writing as much as sixteen hours each day — the reality was I had been doing research for months. But the pen didn’t actually hit the paper until just a few days before my deadline to turn the book over to my editor.</p> <p>That was for a non-fiction book; but I’ve found I do similar things with fiction. I noodle over concepts and ideas for months before I actually commit words to the page.</p> <p>The reason this comes to mind is that I think it’s important to recognize the way that I write is I first spend a lot of time in my head to understand and chew on things. And then by the time it comes to actually getting the words onto the paper, I've already done much of the pre-writing mentally.</p> <p>It's sometimes not fair when you’re comparing yourself to someone else to look at how long they physically spend in front of a keyboard hammering on that word count, because they might have spent a significantly longer amount of a longer time either outlining or conceptualizing the story in their mind or in their heart before they sat down to write. So that's part of the pace, too. Because sometimes, if we only look at the time spent at the ‘writer’s desk,’ we fool ourselves when we think that we're a slow writer or a fast writer.</p> <p><strong>Joanna:</strong>&nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Your pace will change over your career</h3> <p>My first novel took 14 months and now I can write a first draft in about six weeks because I have more experience. It's also more relaxing for me to write a book now than it was in the beginning, because I didn't know what I was doing back then.&nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Your pace will change per project</h3> <p>I have a non-fiction work in progress, my <em><a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/shadowbook" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Shadow Book</a> </em>(working title), which I have started several times. I have about 30,000 words but as I write this, I have backed away from it because I’m (still) not ready. </p> <p>There’s a lot more research and thinking I need to do. Similarly, some people take years writing a memoir or a book with such emotional or personal depth that it needs more to bring it to life.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Your pace will also shift depending on where you are in the arc of life</h3> <p>Perhaps you have young kids right now, or you have a health issue, or you’re caring for someone who is ill. Perhaps you have a demanding day job so you have less time to write. Perhaps you really need extended time away from writing, or just a holiday. Or maybe there’s a global pandemic and frankly, you’re too stressed to write!</p> <p>The key to pacing in a book is variability — and that’s true of life, too. Write at the pace that works for you and don’t be afraid to change it as you need to over time.</p> <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow"> <p>“I think the biggest thing for me is reminding myself that I'm in this to write. Sometimes I can get caught up in all the moving pieces of editing and publishing and marketing, but the longer I go without writing, or only writing because I have to get the next thing done instead of for enjoyment, the more stressed and anxious I become. But if I make time to fit in what I truly love, which is the process of writing without putting pressure on myself to meet a deadline, or to be perfect, or to meet somebody else's expectations — that's when I become truly relaxed.”&nbsp;&#8211; <em>Ariele Sieling&nbsp;</em></p> </blockquote> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Write in a series (if you want to)</h3> <p><strong>Joanna:</strong> I have some stand-alone books but most of them are in series, both for non-fiction and for my fiction as J.F. Penn. It’s how I like to read and write.</p> <p>As we draft this book, I’m also writing book 12 in my ARKANE series, <em>Tomb of Relics</em>. It’s relaxing because <strong>I know my characters, I know my world; I know the structure of how an ARKANE story goes.</strong> I know what to put in it to please my readers. I have already done the work to set up the series world and the main characters and now all I need is a plot and an antagonist.&nbsp;</p> <p>It’s also quicker to write and edit because I’ve done it before. Of course, you need to put in the work initially so the series comes together, but once you’ve set that all up, each subsequent book is easier.</p> <p>You can also be more relaxed because <strong>you already have an audience </strong>who will (hopefully) buy the book because they bought the others. You will know approximately how many sales you’ll get on launch and there will be people ready to review.</p> <p>Writing in a non-fiction series is also a really good idea because you know your audience and you can offer them more books, products and services that will help them within a niche. While they might not be sequential, they should be around the same topic, for example, this is part of my Books for Authors series.</p> <p>Financially, it makes sense to have a series as you will <strong>earn more revenue per customer</strong> as they will (hopefully) buy more than one book. It’s also easier and more relaxing to market as you can set one book to free or a limited time discount and drive sales through to other books in the series.</p> <p>Essentially, writing a book in a series makes it easier to fulfill both creative and financial goals. However, if you love to read and write stand-alone books, and some genres suit stand-alones better than series anyway, then, of course, go with what works for you!&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Mark</strong>: I like to equate this to no matter where you travel in the world, if you find a McDonald's you pretty much know what's on the menu and you know what to expect.</p> <p><strong>When you write in a series, it's like returning to hang out with old friends.</strong></p> <p>You know their backstory; you know their history so you can easily fall into a new conversation about something and not have to get caught up on understanding what you have in common. So that's an enormous benefit of relaxing into something like, “Oh, I’m sitting down over coffee, chatting with some old friends. They’re telling me a new story about something that happened to them. I know who they are, I know what they're made out of.” And this new plot, this new situation, they may have new goals, they may have new ways they’re going to grow as characters, but they're still the same people that we know and love.</p> <p>And that's a huge benefit that I only discovered recently because I'm only right now working on book four in my Canadian Werewolf series.</p> <p>Prior to that, I had three different novels that were all the first book in a series with no book two. And it was stressful for me. Writing anything seemed to take forever.</p> <p>I was causing myself anxiety by jumping around and writing new works as opposed to realizing I could go visit a locale I'm familiar and comfortable with. And I can see new things in the same locale just like sometimes you can see new things and people you know and love already, especially when you introduce something new into the world and you see how they react to it. For me, there's nothing more wonderful than that sort of homecoming. It's like a nostalgic feeling when you do that.</p> <p>I’ve seen a repeated pattern where writers spend years writing their first book. I started <em>A Canadian Werewolf in New York</em> in 2006 and I did not publish it until ten years later, after finishing it in 2015. (FYI, that wasn’t my first novel. I had written three and published one of them prior to that).</p> <p><strong>That first novel can take so long because you're learning.</strong>&nbsp;</p> <p>You’re learning about your characters, about the craft, about the practice of writing, about the processes that you’re testing along the way. And if you are working on your first book and it’s taking longer than planned, please don’t beat yourself up for that. It’s a process. Sometimes that process takes more time.</p> <p>I sometimes wonder if this is related to our perception of time as we age. When you're 10 years old, a day compared to your lifetime is a significant amount of time, and thinking about a year later is considering a time that is one-tenth of your life. When you have a few more decades or more under your belt, that year is a smaller part of the whole. If you’re 30, a year is only one-thirtieth of your life. A much smaller piece.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Just having written more books, particularly in a series, removes the pressure of that one book to represent all of you as a writer.&nbsp;</h3> <p>I had initial anxiety at writing the second book in my Canadian Werewolf series. Book two was more terrifying in some ways than book one because finally, after all this time, I had something good that I didn’t want to ruin. Should I leave well enough alone?</p> <p>But I was asked to write a short story to a theme in an anthology, and using my main character from that first novel allowed me to discover I could have fun spending more time with these characters and this world.</p> <p>And I also realized that people wanted to read more about these characters. I didn't just want to write about them, but other people wanted to read about them too. And that makes the process so much easier to keep going with them.</p> <p>So one of the other benefits that helps to relax me as a writer working on a series is I have a better understanding of who my audience is, and who my readers are, and who will want this, and who will appreciate it. So I know what worked, I know what resonated with them, and I know I can give them that next thing. I have discovered that <strong>writing in a series is a far more relaxed way of understanding your target audience better</strong>. Because it's not just a single shot in the dark, it's a consistent on-going stream.</p> <p>Let me reflect on a bit of a caveat, because I’m not suggesting sticking to only a single series or universe. As writers, we have plenty of ideas and inspirations, and it’s okay to embrace some of the other ones that come to us.</p> <p>When I think about the Canadian rock trio, Rush, a band that produced 19 studio albums and toured for 40 years, I acknowledge a very consistent band over the decades. And yet, they weren't the same band that they were when they started playing together, even though it was the same three guys since Neil Peart joined Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson. They changed what they wrote about, what they sang about, themes, styles, approaches to making music, all of this. They adapted and changed their style at least a dozen times over the course of their career. No album was exactly like the previous album, and they experimented, and they tried things. But there was a consistency of the audience that went along with them. And as writers, we can potentially have that same thing where we know there are going to be people who will follow us. Think about Stephen King, a writer who has been writing in many different subjects and genres. And yet there's a core group of people who will enjoy everything he writes, and he has that Constant Reader he always keeps in mind.</p> <p>And so, when we write in a series, we're thinking about that constant reader in a more relaxed way because that constant reader, like our characters, like our worlds, like our universes, is like we're just returning to a comfortable, cozy spot where we're just going to hang out with some good friends for a bit. Or, as the contemplative Rush song <em>Time Stand Still</em> expresses, the simple comfort and desire of spending some quality time having a drink with a friend.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Schedule time to fill the creative well and for rest and relaxation</h3> <p><strong>Mark:</strong> What we do as writers is quite cerebral, so <strong>we need to give ourselves mental breaks</strong> in the same way we need to sleep regularly.</p> <p>Our bodies require sleep. And it's not just physical rest for our bodies to regenerate, it's for our minds to regenerate. We need that to stay sane, to stay alive, to stay healthy.</p> <p>The reality for us as creatives is that we're writing all the time, whether or not we're in front of a keyboard or have a pen in our hand. </p> <p>We’re always writing, continually sucking the marrow from the things that are happening around us, even when we're not consciously aware of it. And sometimes when we are more consciously aware of it, that awareness can feel forced. It can feel stressful. When you give yourself the time to just let go, to just relax, wonderful things can happen. And they can come naturally, never feeling that urgent sense of pressure.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Downtime, for me, is making space for those magic moments to happen.</h3> <p>I was recently listening to <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/2021/06/14/multi-passionate-creative/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Episode 556 of The Creative Penn podcast</a> where Joanna talked about the serendipity of those moments when you're traveling and you're going to a museum and you see something. And you're not consciously there to research for a book, but you see something that just makes a connection for you. And you would not have had that for your writing had you not given yourself the time to just be doing and enjoying something else.</p> <p>And so, whenever I need to resolve an issue or a problem in a project I’m writing, which can cause stress, I will do other things. I will go for a run or walk the dogs, wash the dishes or clean the house. Or I’ll put on some music and sing and dance like nobody is watching or listening—and thank goodness for that, because that might cause <em>them</em> needless anxiety. The key is, I will do something different that allows my mind to just let go. And somewhere in the subconscious, usually the answer comes to me. <strong>Those non-cerebral activities can be very restorative.</strong></p> <p>Yesterday, my partner Liz and I met her daughter at the park. And while we quietly waited, the two of us wordlessly enjoyed the sights and sounds of people walking by, the river in the background, the wind blowing through the leaves in the trees above us. That moment wasn't a purposeful, “Hey, we're going to chill and relax.” But we found about five minutes of restorative calm in the day.&nbsp;</p> <p>A brief, but powerful ‘Ah’ moment.</p> <p>And when I got back to writing this morning, I drew upon some of the imagery from those few minutes. I didn't realize at the time I was experiencing the moment yesterday that I was going to incorporate some of that imagery in today's writing session. And that's the serendipity that just flows very naturally in those scheduled and even unscheduled moments of relaxation.</p> <p><strong>Joanna:</strong> I separate this into two aspects because I’m good at one and terrible at the other!&nbsp;</p> <p>I schedule time to fill the creative well as often as possible. This is something that Julia Cameron advises in <em>The Artist's Way</em>, and I find it an essential part of my creative practice. Essentially, you can’t create from an empty mind. <strong>You have to actively seek out ways to spark ideas.</strong></p> <p>International travel is a huge part of my fiction inspiration, in particular. This has been impossible during the pandemic and has definitely impacted my writing. I also go to exhibitions and art galleries, as well as read books, watch films and documentaries.</p> <p>If I don't fill my creative well, then I feel empty, like I will never have another idea, that perhaps my writing life is over. Some people call that writer's block but I know that feeling now. It just means I haven’t filled my creative well and I need to schedule time to do that so I can create again.&nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Consume and produce. That’s the balance you need in order to keep the creative well filled and the words flowing.</h3> <p>In terms of scheduling time to relax instead of doing book research, I find this difficult because I love to work. My husband says that I'm like a little sports car that goes really, really fast and doesn't stop until it hits a wall. I operate at a high productivity level and then I crash!</p> <p>But the restrictions of the pandemic have helped me learn more about relaxation, after much initial frustration. I have walked in nature and lain in the garden in the hammock and recently, we went to the seaside for the first time in 18 months. I lay on the stones and watched the waves. I was the most relaxed I’ve been in a long time.</p> <p>I didn't look at my phone. I wasn't listening to a podcast or an audiobook. We weren't talking. We were just being there in nature and relaxing.&nbsp;</p> <p>Authors are always thinking and feeling because everything feeds our work somehow. But we have to have both aspects — active time to fill the creative well and passive time to rest and relax.</p> <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow"> <p>“I go for lots of walks and hikes in the woods. These help me work out the kinks in my plots, and also to feel more relaxed! (Exercise is an added benefit!)” &#8211;<em>T.W. Piperbrook</em></p> </blockquote> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Improve your writing process — but only if it fits with your lifestyle</h3> <p><strong>Joanna: </strong>A lot of stress can occur in writing if we try to change or improve our process too far beyond our natural way of doing things.&nbsp;</p> <p>For example, trying to be a detailed plotter with a spreadsheet when you’re really a discovery writer, or trying to dictate 5,000 words per hour when you find it easier to hand write slowly into a journal.</p> <p><strong>Productivity tips from other writers can really help you tweak your personal process, but only if they work for you — </strong>and I say this as someone who has a book on <em>Productivity for Authors</em>!</p> <p>Of course, it’s a good idea to improve things, but once you try something, analyze whether it works for you — either with data or just how you feel. If it works, great. Adopt it into your process. If it doesn’t work, then discard it.</p> <p>For example, I wrote my first novel in Microsoft Word. When I discovered <a href="http://www.thecreativepenn.com/scrivenersoftware" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Scrivener</a>, I changed my process and never looked back because it made my life so much easier. I don’t write in order and Scrivener made it easier to move things around.</p> <p>I also discovered that it was easier for me to get into my first draft writing and creating when I was away from the desk I use for business, podcasting, and marketing tasks. I started to write in a local cafe and later on in a co-working space. During the pandemic lockdown, I used specific playlists to create a form of separation as I couldn’t physically go somewhere else.</p> <p>Editing is an important part of the writing process but you have to find what works for you, which will also change over time. Some are authors are more relaxed with a messy first draft, then rounds of rewrites while working with multiple editors. Others do one careful draft and then use a proofreader to check the finished book. There are as many ways to write as there are writers.&nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">A relaxed author chooses the process that works in the most effective way for them and makes the book the best it can be.</h3> <p><strong>Mark</strong>: When it comes to process, there are times when you're doing something that feels natural, versus times when you're learning a new skill.</p> <p>Consciously and purposefully learning new skills can be stressful; particularly because it’s something we often put so much emphasis or importance upon.</p> <p>But when you adapt on-going learning as a normal part of your life, a natural part of who and what you are, that stress can flow away. I'm always about learning new skills; but over time I’ve learned how to absorb learning into my everyday processes.</p> <p>I'm a pantser, or discovery writer, or whatever term we can apply that makes us feel better about it. And every time I've tried to stringently outline a book, it has been a stressful experience and I’ve not been satisfied with the process or the result.&nbsp;</p> <p>Perhaps I satisfied the part of me that thought I wanted to be more like other writers, but I didn't satisfy the creative person in me. I was denying that flow that has worked for me.</p> <p>I did, of course, naturally introduce a few new learnings into my attempts to outline; so I stuck with those elements that worked, and abandoned the elements that weren’t working, or were causing me stress.</p> <p>The thought of self-improvement often comes with images of blood, sweat, and tears. It doesn't have to. You don't have to bleed to do this; it can be something that you do at your own pace. You can do it in a way that you're comfortable with so it's causing you no stress, but allowing you to learn and grow and improve. And if it doesn't work but you force yourself to keep doing it because a famous writer or a six-figure author said, “this is the way to do it,” you create pressure. And when you don’t do it that way, you can think of yourself as a failure as opposed to thinking of it as, “No, this is just the way that I do things.”</p> <p>When you accept how you do things, if they result in effectively getting things done and feeling good about it at the same time, you have less resistance, you have less friction, you have less tension.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Constantly learning, adapting, and evolving is good. But forcing ourselves to try to be or do something that we are not or that doesn't work for us, that causes needless anxiety.</strong></p> <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow"> <p>“I think a large part of it comes down to reminding myself WHY I write. This can mean looking back at positive reviews, so I can see how much joy others get from my writing, or even just writing something brand new for the sake of exploring an idea. Writing something just for me, rather than for an audience, reminds me how much I enjoy writing, which helps me to unwind a bit and approach my projects with more playfulness.”&nbsp;&#8211; <em>Icy Sedgwick</em></p> </blockquote> <p>You can find <a href="https://creativepennbooks.com/collections/the-relaxed-author" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title=""><em>The Relaxed Author: Take the Pressure Off Your Art and Enjoy the Creative Journey</em> on CreativePennBooks.com</a> as well as on your favorite online store or audiobook platform, or order in your library or bookstore. </p> <figure class="wp-block-image size-full"><a href="https://creativepennbooks.com/collections/the-relaxed-author" target="_blank" rel=" noreferrer noopener"><img decoding="async" width="600" height="314" src="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/RelaxedAuthorBanner.png" alt="" class="wp-image-33065" srcset="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/RelaxedAuthorBanner.png 600w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/RelaxedAuthorBanner-300x157.png 300w" sizes="(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px" /></a></figure><p>The post <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/2025/12/15/the-relaxed-author-writing-tips-with-joanna-penn-and-mark-leslie-lefebvre/">The Relaxed Author Writing Tips With Joanna Penn and Mark Leslie Lefebvre</a> first appeared on <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com">The Creative Penn</a>.</p>

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<p><strong>Why do some romance authors build decades-long careers while others vanish after one breakout book?</strong> What really separates a throwaway pen name and rapid release strategy from a legacy brand and a body of work you’re proud of? How can you diversify with trad, indie, non-fiction, and Kickstarter without burning out—or selling out your creative freedom? With Jennifer Probst.</p> <p>In the intro, digital ebook signing [<a href="https://blog.bookfunnel.com/2025/announcing-digital-ebook-signing-connect-with-readers-in-a-whole-new-way/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">BookFunnel</a>]; how to check terms and conditions; <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/live/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Business for Authors 2026 webinars</a>; Music industry and AI music [<a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjdrl7lr039o.amp" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">BBC</a>; <a href="https://thenewpublishingstandard.com/2025/11/27/settlement-trajectory-music-partnerships-book-publishing-leverage/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">The New Publishing Standard</a>]; <a href="https://www.theauthorstack.com/p/the-golden-age-of-weird-is-here" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">The Golden Age of Weird</a>.</p> <figure class="wp-block-image"><a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/kwl" target="_blank" rel=" noreferrer noopener"><img decoding="async" width="1024" height="176" src="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/KWL-Primary_Colour-1024x176.png" alt="" class="wp-image-35982" srcset="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/KWL-Primary_Colour-1024x176.png 1024w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/KWL-Primary_Colour-300x52.png 300w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/KWL-Primary_Colour-768x132.png 768w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/KWL-Primary_Colour-1536x264.png 1536w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/KWL-Primary_Colour-2048x352.png 2048w" sizes="(max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px" /></a></figure> <p><a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/kwl" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a>This podcast is sponsored by&nbsp;<a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/kwl" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Kobo Writing Life</a>, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the&nbsp;<a href="http://kobowritinglife.com/category/kwl-podcast/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Kobo Writing Life podcast</a>&nbsp;for interviews with successful indie authors.</p> <p>This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at&nbsp;<a href="https://www.patreon.com/thecreativepenn" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Patreon.com/thecreativepenn</a>&nbsp;</p> <div class="wp-block-image"> <figure class="aligncenter size-full"><a href="https://jenniferprobst.com/" target="_blank" rel=" noreferrer noopener"><img decoding="async" width="1000" height="300" src="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Jennifer-Probst.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-37222" srcset="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Jennifer-Probst.jpg 1000w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Jennifer-Probst-300x90.jpg 300w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Jennifer-Probst-768x230.jpg 768w" sizes="(max-width: 1000px) 100vw, 1000px" /></a></figure> </div> <p>Jennifer Probst is a New York Times, USA Today, and Wall Street Journal bestselling author of over 60 books across different kinds of romance as well as non-fiction for writers. Her latest book is <em>Write Free</em>. </p> <p>You can listen above or on&nbsp;<a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/podcasts/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">your favorite podcast app</a>&nbsp;or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights, and the full transcript is below.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Show Notes</strong></p> <ul class="wp-block-list"> <li>How Jennifer started writing at age 12, fell in love with romance, and persisted through decades of rejection</li> <li>A breakout success — and what happened when it moved to a traditional publisher</li> <li>Traditional vs indie publishing, diversification, and building a long-term, legacy-focused writing career</li> <li>Rapid-release pen names vs slow-burn author brands, and why Jennifer chooses quality and longevity</li> <li>Inspirational non-fiction for writers (<em>Write Naked</em>, <em>Write True</em>, <em>Write Free</em>)</li> <li>Using Kickstarter for special editions, re-releases, courses, and what she’s learned from both successes and mistakes – plus what “writing free” really means in practice</li> <li>How can you &#8216;write free'?</li> </ul> <p>You can find Jennifer at <a href="https://jenniferprobst.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">JenniferProbst.com</a>.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Transcript of interview with Jennifer Probst</h3> <p>Jo: Jennifer Probst is a New York Times, USA Today, and Wall Street Journal bestselling author of over 60 books across different kinds of romance as well as non-fiction for writers. Her latest book is <em>Write Free</em>. So welcome, Jennifer.</p> <p>Jennifer: Thanks so much, Joanna. I am kind of fangirling. I'm really excited to be on <em>The Creative Penn</em> podcast. It's kind of a bucket list.</p> <p>Jo: Aw, that's exciting. I reached out to you after your recent Kickstarter, and we are going to come back to that in a minute. First up, take us back in time. </p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Tell us a bit more about how you got into writing and publishing.</h3> <p>Jennifer: This one is easy for me. I am one of those rarities. I think that I knew when I was seven that I was going to write. I just didn't know what I was going to write.</p> <p>At 12 years old, and now this will kind of date me in dinosaur era here, there was no internet, no information on how to be a writer, no connections out there. The only game in town was <em>Writer’s Digest</em>. I would go to my library and pore over <em>Writer’s Digest</em> to learn how to be a writer.</p> <p>At 12 years old, all I knew was, “Oh, if I want to be a famous writer, I have to write a book.” So I literally sat down at 12 and wrote my first young adult romance. Of course, I was the star, as we all are when we're young, and I have not stopped since.</p> <p>I always knew, since my dad came home from a library with a box of romance novels and got in trouble with my mum and said, basically, “She's reading everything anyway, just let her read these,” I was gone. From that moment on, I knew that my entire life was going to be about that.</p> <p>So for me, it wasn't the writing. I have written non-stop since I was 12 years old. For me, it was more about making this a career where I can make money, because I think there was a good 30 years where I wrote without a penny to my name.</p> <p>So it was more of a different journey for me. It was more about trying to find my way in the writing world, where everybody said it should be just a hobby, and I believed that it should be something more.</p> <p>Jo: I was literally just going back in my head there to the library I used to go to on my way home from school. Similar, probably early teens, maybe age 14. Going to that section and… I think it was Shirley Conran. Was that <em>Lace</em>? Yes, <em>Lace</em> books. That's literally how we all learned about sex back in the day.</p> <p>Jennifer: All from books. You didn't need parents, you didn't need friends. Amazing.</p> <p>Jo: Oh, those were the days. That must have been the eighties, right?</p> <p>Jennifer: It was the eighties. Yes. Seventies, eighties, but mostly right around in the eighties. Oh, it was so…</p> <p>Jo: I got lost about then because I was reminiscing. I was also the same one in the library, and people didn't really see what you were reading in the corner of the library. So I think that's quite funny.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Tell us how you got into being an indie.</h3> <p>Jennifer: What had happened is I had this manuscript and it had been shopped around New York for agents and for a bunch of publishers. I kept getting the same exact thing: “I love your voice.”</p> <p>I mean, Joanna, when you talk about papering your wall with rejections, I lived that. The only thing I can say is that when I got my first rejection, I looked at it as a rite of passage that created me as a writer, rather than taking the perspective that it meant I failed.</p> <p>To me, perspective is a really big thing in this career, how you look at things. So that really helped me. But after you get like 75 of them, you're like, “I don't know how much longer I can take of this.”</p> <p>What happened is, it was an interesting story, because I had gone to an RWA conference and I had shopped this everywhere, this book that I just kept coming back to. I kept saying, “I feel like this book could be big.”</p> <p>There was an indie publisher there. They had just started out, it was an indie publisher called Entangled. A lot of my friends were like, “What about Entangled? Why don't you try more digital things or more indie publishers coming up rather than the big traditional ones?”</p> <p>Lo and behold, I sent it out. They loved the book. They decided, in February of 2012, to launch it. It was their big debut. They were kind of competing with Harlequin, but it was going to be a new digital line. It was this new cutting-edge thing.</p> <p>The book went crazy. It went viral. The book was called <em>The Marriage Bargain</em>, and it put me on the map. All of a sudden I was inundated with agents, and the traditional publishers came knocking and they wanted to buy the series. It was everywhere. Then it hit <em>USA Today</em>, and then it spent 26 weeks on <em>The New York Times</em>.</p> <p>Everybody was like, “Wow, you're this overnight sensation.” And I'm like, “Not really!” That was kind of my leeway into everything. We ended up selling that series to Simon & Schuster because that was the smart move for then, because it kind of blew up and an indie publisher at that time knew it was a lot to take on.</p> <p>From then on, my goal was always to do both: to have a traditional contract, to work with indie publishers, and to do my own self-pub. I felt, even back then, the more diversified I am, the more control I have. If one bucket goes bad, I have two other buckets.</p> <p>Jo: Yes, I mean, I always say multiple streams of income. It's so surprising to me that people think that whatever it is that hits big is going to continue.</p> <p>So you obviously experienced there a massive high point, but it doesn't continue. </p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">You had all those weeks that were amazing, but then it drops off, right?</h3> <p>Jennifer: Oh my goodness, yes. Great story about what happened. So 26 weeks on <em>The New York Times</em>, and it was selling like hotcakes. Then Simon & Schuster took it over and they bumped the price to their usual ebook price, which was, what, $12.99 or something?</p> <p>So it's going from $2.99. The day that they did it, I slid off all the bestseller lists. They were gone, and I lost a lot of control too. With indies, you have a little bit more control. But again, that kind of funnels me into a completely different kind of setup. Traditional is very different from indie.</p> <p>What you touched on, I think, is the biggest thing in the industry right now. When things are hot, it feels like forever. I learned a valuable lesson: it doesn't continue. It just doesn't.</p> <p>Maybe someone like Danielle Steel or some of the other big ones never had to pivot, but I feel like in romance it's very fluid. You have genres hitting big, you have niches hitting big, authors hitting big. </p> <p>Yes, I see some of them stay. I see Emily Henry still staying—maybe that will never pause—but I think for the majority, they find themselves saying, “Okay, that's done now. What's next?” It can either hit or not hit. Does that make sense to you? Do you feel the same?</p> <p>Jo: Yes, and I guess it's not just about the book. It's more about the tactic. You mentioned genres, and they do switch a lot in romance, a lot faster than other genres. </p> <p>In terms of how we do marketing… Now, as we record this, TikTok is still a thing, and we can see maybe generative AI search coming on the horizon and agentic buying. </p> <p>A decade ago it might have been different, more Facebook ads or whatever. Then before that it might have been something else. </p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">So there's always things changing along the way.</h3> <p>Jennifer: Yes, there definitely is. It is a very oversaturated market.</p> <p>They talk about, I don't know, 2010 to 2016 maybe, as the gold rush, because that was where you could make a lot of money as an indie. Then we saw the total fallout of so many different things.</p> <p>I feel like I've gone through so many ups and downs in the industry. I do love it because the longer you're around, the more you learn how to pivot. If you want this career, you learn how to write differently or do whatever you need to do to keep going, in different aspects, with the changes.</p> <p>To me, that makes the industry exciting. Again, perspective is a big thing. But I have had to take a year to kind of rebuild when I was out of contract with a lot of things. I've had to say, “Okay, what do you see on the horizon now? Where is the new foundation? Where do you wanna restart?”</p> <p>Sometimes it takes a year or two of, “Maybe I won't be making big income and I cut back,” but then you're back in it, because it takes a while to write a few new books, or write under a pen name, or however you want to pivot your way back into the industry.</p> <p>Or, like you were saying, diversifying. I did a lot of non-fiction stuff because that's a big calling for me, so I put that into the primary for a while.</p> <p>I think it's important for authors to maybe not just have one thing. When that one thing goes away, you're scrambling. It's good to have a couple of different things like, “Well, okay, this genre is dead or this thing is dead or this isn't making money. Let me go to this for a little while until I see new things on the horizon.”</p> <p>Jo: Yes. There's a couple of things I want to come back to. You mentioned a pen name there, and one of the things I'm seeing a lot right now—I mean, it's always gone on, but it seems to be on overdrive—is people doing rapid-release, throwaway pen names. </p> <p>So there’s a new sub-genre, they write the books really fast, they put them up under whatever pen name, and then when that goes away, they ditch that pen name altogether. Versus growing a name brand more slowly, like I think you and I have done. Under my J.F. Penn fiction brand, I put lots of different sub-genres.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">What are your thoughts on this throwaway pen name versus growing a name brand more slowly?</h3> <p>Jennifer: Well, okay, the first thing I'm goign to say is: if that lights people up, if you love the idea of rapid release and just kind of shedding your skin and going on to the next one, I say go for it. </p> <p>As long as you're not pumping it out with AI so it's a complete AI book, but that's a different topic. I'm not saying using AI tools; I mean a completely AI-written book. That's the difference.</p> <p>If we're talking about an author going in and, every four weeks, writing a book and stuff like that, I do eventually think that anything in life that disturbs you, you're going to burn out eventually. That is a limited-time kind of thing, I believe. </p> <p>I don't know how long you can keep doing that and create decent enough books or make a living on it. But again, I really try not to judge, because I am very open to: if that gives you joy and that's working and it brings your family money, go for it.</p> <p>I have always wanted to be a writer for the long term. I want my work to be my legacy. I don't just pump out books. Every single book is my history. It's a marking of what I thought, what I put out in the world, what my beliefs are, what my story is. It marks different things, and I'm very proud of that. So I want a legacy of quality.</p> <p>As I got older, in my twenties and thirties, I was able to write books a lot faster. Then I had a family with two kids and I had to slow down a little bit. I also think life sometimes drives your career, and that's okay. If you're taking care of a sick parent or there's illness or whatever, maybe you need to slow down.</p> <p>I like the idea of a long-term backlist supporting me when I need to take a back seat and not do frontlist things. So that's how I feel.</p> <p>I will always say: choose a long, organic-growth type of career that will be there for you, where your backlist can support you. I also don't want to trash people who do it differently. If that is how you can do it, if you can write a book in a month and keep doing it and keep it quality, go for it.</p> <p>Jo: I do have the word “legacy” on my board next to me, but I also have “create a body of work I'm proud of.” I have that next to me, and I have “Have you made art today?” So I think about these things too. </p> <p>As you say, people feel differently about work, and I will do other work to make faster cash rather than do that with books. But as we said, that's all good.</p> <p>Interestingly, you mentioned non-fiction there. <em>Write Free</em> is your latest one, but you've got some other writing books. So maybe—</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Talk about the difference between non-fiction book income and marketing compared to fiction, and why you added that in.</h3> <p>Jennifer: Yes, it's completely different. I mean, it's two new dinosaurs. I came to writing non-fiction in a very strange way. Literally, I woke up on New Year’s Day and I was on a romance book deadline. I could not do it. </p> <p>I'll tell you, my brain was filled with passages of teaching writing, of things I wanted to share in my writing career. Because again, I've been writing since I was 12, I've been a non-stop writer for over 30 years.</p> <p>I got to my computer and I wrote like three chapters of <em>Write Naked</em> (which was the first book). It was just pouring out of me. So I contacted my agent and I said, “Look, I don't know, this is what I want to do. I want to write this non-fiction book.” </p> <p>She's like, “What are you talking about? You're a romance author. You're on a romance deadline. What do you want me to do with this?” She was so confused.</p> <p>I said, “Yes, how do you write a non-fiction book proposal?” And she was just like, “This is not good, Jen. What are you doing?”</p> <p>Anyway, the funny story was, she said, “Just send me chapters.” I mean, God bless her, she's this wonderful agent, but I know she didn't get it. </p> <p>So I sent her like four chapters of what I was writing and she called me. I'll never forget it. She called me on the phone and she goes, “This is some of the best stuff I have ever read in my life. It's raw and it's truthful, and we've got to find a publisher for this.” And I was like, “Yay.”</p> <p>What happened was, I believe this was one of the most beautiful full circles in my life: Writer’s Digest actually made me an offer. It was not about the money. I found that non-fiction for me had a much lower advance and a different type of sales. </p> <p>For me, when I was a kid, that is exactly what I was reading in the library, <em>Writer’s Digest</em>. I would save my allowance to get the magazine. I would say to myself, “One day, maybe I will have a book with Writer’s Digest.”</p> <p>So for me, it was one of the biggest full-circle moments. I will never forget it. Being published by them was amazing.</p> <p>Then I thought I was one-and-done, but the book just completely touched so many writers. I have never gotten so many emails: “Thank you for saying the truth,” or “Thank you for being vulnerable.”</p> <p>Right before it published, I had a panic attack. I told my husband, “Now everybody's going to know that I am a mess and I'm not fabulous and the world is going to know my craziness.” </p> <p>By being vulnerable about the career, and also that it was specifically for romance authors, it caused a bond. I think it caused some trust. I had been writing about writing for years.</p> <p>After that, I thought it was one-and-done. Then two or three years later I was like, “No, I have more to say.” So I leaned into my non-fiction. It also gives my fiction brain a rest, because when you're doing non-fiction, you're using a different part of your brain. </p> <p>It's a way for me to cleanse my palate. I gather more experiences about what I want to share, and then that goes into the next book.</p> <p>Jo: Yes, I also use the phrase “palate cleanser” for non-fiction versus fiction. I feel like you write one and then you feel like, “Oh, I really need to write the other now.”</p> <p>Jennifer: Yes! Isn't it wonderful? I love that. I love having the two brains and just giving one a break and totally leaning into it. Again, it's another way of income. It's another way.</p> <p>I also believe that this industry has given me so much that it is automatic that I want to give back. I just want to give as much as possible back because I'm so passionate about writing and the industry field.</p> <p>Jo: Well, interestingly though, Writer’s Digest—the publisher who published that magazine and other things—went bankrupt in 2019. You've been in publishing a long time. </p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">It is not uncommon for publishers to go out of business or to get bought. Things happen with publishers, right?</h3> <p>Jennifer: Yes.</p> <p>Jo: So what then happened?</p> <p>Jennifer: So Penguin Random House bought it. All the<em> Writer’s Digest </em>authors did not know what they were going to do. Then Penguin Random House bought it and kept Writer’s Digest completely separate, as an imprint under the umbrella.</p> <p>So Writer’s Digest really hasn't changed. They still have the magazine, they still have books. So it ended up being okay. But what I did do is—because I sold <em>Write Naked</em> and I have no regrets about that, it was the best thing for me to do, to go that route—the second and the third books were self-published.</p> <p>I decided I'm going to self-publish. That way I have the rights for audio, I have the rights for myself, I can do a whole bunch of different things.</p> <p>So <em>Write True</em>, the second one, was self-published. <em>Writers Inspiring Writers</em> I paired up with somebody, so we self-published that. And <em>Write Free</em>, my newest one, is self-published. So I've decided to go that route now with my non-fiction.</p> <p>Jo: Well, as I said, I noticed your Kickstarter. I don't write romance, so I'm not really in that community. I had kind of heard your name before, but then I bought the book and joined the Kickstarter. Then I discovered that you've been doing so much and I was like, “Oh, how, why haven't we connected before?” It's very cool.</p> <p>So tell us about the Kickstarters you've done and what you know, because you've done, I think, a fiction one as well. </p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">What are your thoughts and tips around Kickstarter?</h3> <p>Jennifer: Yes. When I was taking that year, I found myself kind of… let's just say fired from a lot of different publishers at the time. That was okay because I had contracts that ran out, and when I looked to see, “Okay, do we want to go back?” it just wasn't looking good.</p> <p>I was like, “Well, I don't want to spend a year if I'm not gonna be making the money anyway.” So I looked at the landscape and I said, “It's time to really pull in and do a lot more things on my own, but I've got to build foundations.” Kickstarter was one of them. </p> <p>I took a course with Russell Nohelty and Monica Leonelle. They did a big course for Kickstarter, and they were really the ones going around to all the conferences and basically saying, “Hey guys, you're missing out on a lot of publishing opportunities here,” because Kickstarter publishing was getting good.</p> <p>I took the course because I like to dive into things, but I also want to know the foundation of it. I want to know what I'm doing. I'm not one to just wing it when it comes to tech. </p> <p>So what happened is, the first one, I had rights coming back from a book. After 10 years, my rights came back. It was an older book and I said, “You know what? I am going to dip my foot in and see what kind of base I can grow there. What can I do?”</p> <p>I was going to get a new cover, add new scenes, re-release it anyway, right? So I said, “Let's do a Kickstarter for it, because then I can get paid for all of that work.”</p> <p>It worked out so fantastically. It made just enough for my goal. I knew I didn't want to make a killing; I knew I wanted to make a fund. I made my $5,000, which I thought was wonderful, and I was able to re-release it with a new cover, a large print hardback, and I added some scenes. </p> <p>I did a 10-year anniversary re-release for my fans. So I made it very fan-friendly, grew my audience, and I was like, “This was great.”</p> <p>The next year, I did something completely different. I was doing Kindle Vella back in the day. That was where you dropped a chapter at a time. I said, “I want to do this completely different kind of thing.” </p> <p>It was very not my brand at all. It was very reality TV-ish: young college students living in the city, very sexy, very angsty, love triangles, messy—everything I was not known for.</p> <p>Again, I was like, “I'm not doing a pen name because this is just me,” and I funnelled my audience. I said, “What I'm going to do is I'm going to start doing a chapter a week through Kindle Vella and make money there. Then when it's done, I'm going to bundle it all up and make a book out of it.”</p> <p>So I did a year of Kindle Vella. It was the best decision I made because I just did two chapters a week, which I was able to do. By one year I had like 180,000 words. I had two to three books in there.</p> <p>I did it as a hardback deluxe—the only place you could get it in print. Then Vella closed, or at least it went way down. So I was like, “Great, I'm going to do this Kickstarter for this entire new thing.”</p> <p>I partnered with a company that helps with special editions, because that was a whole other… oh Joanna, that was a whole other thing you have to go into. Getting the books, getting the art, getting the swag. I felt like I needed some help for that.</p> <p>Again, I went in, I funded. I did not make a killing on that, but that was okay. I learned some things that I would have changed with my Kickstarter and I also built a new audience for that. I had a lot of extra books that I then sold in my store, and it was another place to make money.</p> <p>The third Kickstarter I used specifically because I had always wanted to do a writing course. I go all over the world, I do keynotes, I do workshops, I've done books, and I wanted to reach new writers, but I don't travel a lot anymore.</p> <p>So I came up with the concept that I was going to do my very first course, and it was going to be very personal, kind of like me talking to them almost like in a keynote, like you're in a room with me.</p> <p>I gathered a whole bunch of stuff and I used Kickstarter to help me A) fund it and B) make myself do it, because it was two years in the making and I always had, “Oh, I've got this other thing to do,” you know how we do that, right? We have big projects.</p> <p>So I used Kickstarter as a deadline and I decided to launch it in the summer. In addition to that, I took years of my posts from all over. I copied and pasted, did new posts, and I created <em>Write Free</em>, which was a very personal, essay-driven book. I took it all together.</p> <p>I took a couple of months to do this, filmed the course, and the Kickstarter did better than I had ever imagined. I got quadruple what I wanted, and it literally financed all the video editing, the books, everything that I needed, plus extra.</p> <p>I feel like I'm growing in Kickstarter. I hope I'm not ranting. I'm trying to go over things that can help people.</p> <p>Jo: Oh no, that is super useful.</p> <p>Jennifer: So you don't have to go all in and say, “If it doesn't fund it's over,” or “I need to make $20,000.” There are people making so much money, and there are people that will do a project a year or two projects a year and just get enough to fund a new thing that they want to do. So that's how I've done it.</p> <p>Jo: I've done quite a few now, and my non-fiction ones have been a lot bigger—I have a big audience there—and my fiction have been all over the place.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">What I like about Kickstarter is that you can do these different things. </h3> <p>We can do these special editions. I've just done a sprayed-edge short story collection. Short story collections are not the biggest genre.</p> <p>Jennifer: Yes. I love short stories too. I've always wanted to do an anthology of all my short stories.</p> <p>Jo: There you go.</p> <p>Jennifer: Yes, I love that for your Kickstarter. Love it.</p> <p>Jo: When I turned 50 earlier this year, I realised the thing that isn't in print is my short stories. They are out there digitally, and that's why I wanted to do it. I feel like Kickstarter is a really good way to do these creative projects. </p> <p>As you say, you don't have to make a ton of money, but at the end of the day, the definition of success for us, I think for both of us, is just being able to continue doing this, right?</p> <p>Jennifer: Absolutely. This is funding a creative full-time career, and every single thing that you do with your content is like a funnel. The more funnels that you have, the bigger your base. Especially if you love it. It would be different if I was struggling and thinking, “Do I get an editor job?” I would hate being an editor.</p> <p>But if you look at something else like, “Oh yes, I could do this and that would light me up, like doing a course—wow, that sounds amazing,” then that's different. It's kind of finding your alternates that also light you up.</p> <p>Jo: Hmm. </p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">So were there any mistakes in your Kickstarters that you think are worth sharing?</h3> <p>In case people are thinking about it.</p> <p>Jennifer: Oh my God, yes. So many.</p> <p>One big thing was that I felt like I was a failure if I didn't make a certain amount of money because my name is pretty well known. It's not like I'm brand new and looking.</p> <p>One of the big things was that I could not understand and I felt like I was banging my head against the wall about why my newsletter subscribers wouldn't support the Kickstarter. I'm like, “Why aren't you doing this? I'm supposed to have thousands of people that just back.” Your expectations can really mess with you.</p> <p>Then I started to learn, “Oh my God, my newsletter audience wants nothing to do with my Kickstarter.” Maybe I had a handful. So then I learned that I needed longer tails, like putting it up for pre-order way ahead of time, and also that you can't just announce it in your newsletter and feel like everybody's going to go there.</p> <p>You need to find your streams, your Kickstarter audience, which includes ads. I had never done ads either and I didn't know how to do that, so I did that all wrong.</p> <p>I joined the Facebook group for Kickstarter authors. I didn't do that for the first one and then I learned about it. You share backer updates, so every time you go into your audience with a backer update, there's this whole community where you can share with like-minded people with their projects, and you post it under your updates.</p> <p>It does cross-networking and sharing with a lot of authors in their newsletters. For the <em>Write Free</em> one, I leaned into my networking a lot, using my connections. I used other authors' newsletters and people in the industry to share my Kickstarter. That was better for me than just relying on my own fanbase.</p> <p>So definitely more networking, more sharing, getting it out on different platforms rather than just doing your own narrow channel. Because a lot of the time, you think your audience will follow you into certain things and they don't, and that needs to be okay.</p> <p>The other thing was the time and the backend. I think a lot of authors can get super excited about swag. I love that, but I learned that I could have pulled back a little bit and been smarter with my financials. I did things I was passionate about, but I probably spent much more money on swag than I needed to.</p> <p>So looking at different aspects to make it more efficient. I think each time you do one, you learn what works best.</p> <p>As usual, I try to be patient with myself. I don't get mad at myself for trying things and failing. I think failing is spectacular because I learn something. I know: do I want to do this again? Do I want to do it differently?</p> <p>If we weren't so afraid of failingqu “in public&#8221;, I think we would do more things. I'm not saying I never think, “Oh my God, that was so embarrassing, I barely funded and this person is getting a hundred thousand.” We're human. We compare.</p> <p>I have my own reset that I do, but I really try to say, “But no, for me, maybe I'll do this, and if it doesn't work, that's okay.”</p> <p>Jo: I really like that you shared about the email list there because I feel like too many people have spent years driving people to Kindle or KU, and they have built an email list of readers who like a particular format at a particular price.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Then we are saying, “Oh, now come over here and buy a beautiful hardback that's like ten times the price.&#8221;</h3> <p>And we're surprised when nobody does it. Is that what happened?</p> <p>Jennifer: Exactly.</p> <p>Also, that list was for a non-fiction project. So I had to funnel where my writers were in my newsletter, and I have mostly readers. So I was like, “Okay…” But I think you're exactly right. </p> <p>First of all, it's the platform. When you ask anybody to go off a platform, whether it's buy direct at your Shopify store or go to Kickstarter, you are going to lose the majority right there. People are like, “No, I want to click a button from your newsletter and go to a site that I know.”</p> <p>So you've got that, and you've got to train them. That can take some time. Then you've got this project where people are like, “I don't understand.” Even my mum was like, “I would love to support you, honey, but what the heck is this? Where's the buy button and where's my book?”</p> <p>My women's fiction books tend to have some older readers who are like, “Hell no, I don't know what this is.” So you have to know your audience. If it's not translating, train them. </p> <p>I did a couple of videos where I said, “Look, I want to show you how easy this is,” and I showed them directly how to go in and how to back. I did that with Kindle Vella too. I did a video from my newsletter and on social: “Hey, do you not know how to read this chapter? Here's how.” Sometimes there's a barrier.</p> <p>Like you said, Joanna, if I have a majority that just want sexy contemporary, and I'm dropping angsty, cheating, forbidden love, they're like, “Oh no, that's not for me.” So you have to know whether there's a crossover.</p> <p>I go into my business with that already baked into my expectations. I don't go in thinking I'm going to make a killing. Then I'm more surprised when it does well, and then I can build it.</p> <p>Jo: Yes, exactly. Also if you are, like both of us, writing across genres, then you are always going to split your audience. People do not necessarily buy everything because they have their preferences. So I think that's great.</p> <p>Now we are almost out of time, but this latest book is <em>Write Free</em>. I wondered if you would maybe say—</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">What does <em>Write Free</em> mean to you, and what might it help the listeners with?</h3> <p>Jennifer: <em>Write Free</em> is an extremely personal book for me, and the title was really important because it goes with <em>Write Naked</em>, <em>Write True</em>, and <em>Write Free</em>. These are the ways that I believe a writer should always show up to the page. Freedom is being able to write your truth in whatever day that is.</p> <p>You're going to be a different writer when you're young and maybe hormonal and passionate and having love affairs. You're going to write differently when you're a mum with kids in nappies. You're going to write differently when you are maybe in your forties and you're killing your career. Your perspective changes, your life changes.</p> <p><em>Write Free</em> is literally a collection of essays all through my 30 years of life. It's very personal. There are essays like, “I'm writing my 53rd book right now,” and essays like, “My kids are in front of SpongeBob and I'm trying to write right now,” and “I got another rejection letter and I don't know how to survive.”</p> <p>It is literally an imprint of essays that you can dip in and dip out of. It's easy, short, inspirational, and it's just me showing up for my writing life. That's what I wish for everybody: that they can show up for their writing life in the best way that they can at the time, because that changes all the time.</p> <p>Jo: We can say “write free” because we've got a lot of experience at writing. I feel like when I started writing—I was an IT consultant—I literally couldn't write anything creative. I didn't believe I could.</p> <p>There'll be people listening who are just like, “Well, Jennifer, I can't write free. I'm not free. My mind is shackled by all these expectations and everything.”</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">How can they release that and aim for more freedom?</h3> <p>Jennifer: I love that question so much. The thing is, I've spent so many years working on that part. That doesn't come overnight. I think sometimes when you have more clarification of, “Okay, this is really limiting me,” then when you can see where something is limiting you, at least you can look for answers.</p> <p>My answers came in the form of meditation. Meditation is a very big thing in my life. Changing my perspective. Learning life mottos to help me deal with those kinds of limitations.</p> <p>Learning that when I write a sex scene, I can't care about my elderly aunt who tells my mother, “Dear God, she ruined the family name.” It is your responsibility to figure out where these limitations are, and then slowly see how you can remove them.</p> <p>I've been in therapy. I have read hundreds of self-help books. I take meditation courses. I take workshop courses. </p> <p>I've done CliftonStrengths with Becca Syme. I don't even know if that's therapy, but it feels like therapy to me as a writer. Knowing my personality traits. I've done Enneagram work with Claire Taylor, which has been huge. The more you know yourself and how your brain is showing up for yourself, the more you can grab tools to use.</p> <p>I wish I could say, “Yes, if everybody meditates 30 minutes a day, you're going to have all blocks removed,” but it's so personal that it's a trick question.</p> <p>If everybody started today and said, “Where is my biggest limitation?” and be real with yourself, there are answers out there. You just have to go slowly and find them, and then the writing more free will come. I hope that wasn't one of those woo-woo answers, but I really do believe it.</p> <p>Jo: I agree. It just takes time. Like our writing career, it just takes time. Keep working on it, keep writing.</p> <p>Jennifer: Yes. And bravery, right? A lot of bravery. Just show up for yourself however you can. If “write free” feels too big, journal for yourself and put it in a locked drawer. Any kind of writing, I think, is therapeutic too.</p> <p>Jo: Brilliant. </p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">So where can people find you and your books and everything you do online?</h3> <p>Jennifer: The best place to go is my website. I treat it like my home. It's <a href="https://jenniferprobst.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">www.JenniferProbst.com</a>. </p> <p>There is so much on it. Not just books, not just free content and free stories. There's an entire section just for writers. There are videos on there. There are a lot of resources. I keep it up to date and it is the place where you can find me.</p> <p>Of course I'm everywhere on social media as <a href="https://www.instagram.com/AuthorJenniferProbst/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Author Jennifer Probst</a>. You can find me anywhere. I always tell everybody: I answer my messages, I answer my emails. That is really important to me. So if you heard this podcast and you want to reach out on anything, please do. I will answer.</p> <p>Jo: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Jennifer. That was great.</p> <p>Jennifer: Thanks for having me, Joanna.</p><p>The post <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/2025/12/01/writing-free-romance-author-jennifer-probst-on-a-long-term-author-career/">Writing Free: Romance Author Jennifer Probst On A Long-Term Author Career</a> first appeared on <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com">The Creative Penn</a>.</p>

<p>How can you write science-based fiction without info-dumping your research? How can you use AI tools in a creative way, while still focusing on a human-first approach? <strong>Why is adapting to the fast pace of change so difficult and how can we make the most of this time?</strong> Jamie Metzl talks about <em>Superconvergence</em> and more.</p> <p>In the intro, How to avoid author scams [<a href="https://www.writtenwordmedia.com/avoid-author-scams/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Written Word Media</a>]; Spotify vs Audible audiobook strategy [<a href="https://thenewpublishingstandard.com/2025/11/20/spotify-audiobooks-proves-sceptics-wrong/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">The New Publishing Standard</a>]; Thoughts on Author Nation and why constraints are important in your author life [<a href="https://selfpublishingadvice.org/podcast-author-nation/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Self-Publishing with ALLi</a>]; <br>Alchemical History And Beautiful Architecture: <a href="https://www.booksandtravel.page/prague-lisa-lilly/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Prague with Lisa M Lilly on my Books and Travel Podcast</a>. </p> <div class="wp-block-image"> <figure class="aligncenter"><a href="https://www.draft2digital.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><img decoding="async" width="430" height="144" src="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/draft2digital.jpg" alt="draft2digital" class="wp-image-23600" srcset="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/draft2digital.jpg 430w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/draft2digital-300x100.jpg 300w" sizes="(max-width: 430px) 100vw, 430px" /></a></figure> </div> <p><a href="https://www.draft2digital.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"></a>Today's show is sponsored by&nbsp;<a href="http://www.draft2digital.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Draft2Digital</a>, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to&nbsp;<a href="https://www.draft2digital.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">www.draft2digital.com</a>&nbsp;to get started.</p> <p>This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at&nbsp;<a href="https://www.patreon.com/thecreativepenn" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Patreon.com/thecreativepenn</a>&nbsp;</p> <div class="wp-block-image"> <figure class="aligncenter size-full"><a href="https://jamiemetzl.com/" target="_blank" rel=" noreferrer noopener"><img decoding="async" width="813" height="300" src="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Jamie-Metzl.jpg" alt="" class="wp-image-37196" srcset="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Jamie-Metzl.jpg 813w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Jamie-Metzl-300x111.jpg 300w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Jamie-Metzl-768x283.jpg 768w" sizes="(max-width: 813px) 100vw, 813px" /></a></figure> </div> <p>Jamie Metzl is a technology futurist, professional speaker, entrepreneur, and the author of sci-fi thrillers and futurist nonfiction books, including the revised and updated edition of <em>Superconvergence: How the Genetics, Biotech, and AI Revolutions Will Transform Our Lives, Work, and World</em>.</p> <p>You can listen above or on&nbsp;<a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/podcasts/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">your favorite podcast app</a>&nbsp;or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Show Notes</strong></p> <ul class="wp-block-list"> <li>How personal history shaped Jamie's fiction writing </li> <li>Writing science-based fiction without info-dumping</li> <li>The super convergence of three revolutions (genetics, biotech, AI) and why we need to understand them holistically </li> <li>Using fiction to explore the human side of genetic engineering, life extension, and robotics </li> <li>Collaborating with GPT-5 as a named co-author</li> <li>How to be a first-rate human rather than a second-rate machine</li> </ul> <p>You can find Jamie at <a href="https://jamiemetzl.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">JamieMetzl.com</a>.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Transcript of interview with Jamie Metzl</h3> <p>Jo: Jamie Metzl is a technology futurist, professional speaker, entrepreneur, and the author of sci-fi thrillers and futurist nonfiction books, including the revised and updated edition of <em>Superconvergence: How the Genetics, Biotech, and AI Revolutions Will Transform Our Lives, Work, and World</em>. So welcome, Jamie.</p> <p>Jamie: Thank you so much, Jo. Very happy to be here with you.</p> <p>Jo: There is so much we could talk about, but let's start with you telling us a bit more about you and how you got into writing.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">From History PhD to First Novel</h3> <p>Jamie: Well, I think like a lot of writers, I didn't know I was a writer. I was just a kid who loved writing.</p> <p>Actually, just last week I was going through a bunch of boxes from my parents' house and I found my autobiography, which I wrote when I was nine years old. So I've been writing my whole life and loving it. It was always something that was very important to me.</p> <p>When I finished my DPhil, my PhD at Oxford, and my dissertation came out, it just got scooped up by Macmillan in like two minutes. And I thought, &#8220;God, that was easy.&#8221;</p> <p>That got me started thinking about writing books. I wanted to write a novel based on the same historical period – my PhD was in Southeast Asian history – and I wanted to write a historical novel set in the same period as my dissertation, because I felt like the dissertation had missed the human element of the story I was telling, which was related to the Cambodian genocide and its aftermath.</p> <p>So I wrote what became my first novel, and I thought, &#8220;Wow, now I'm a writer.&#8221; I thought, &#8220;All right, I've already published one book. I'm gonna get this other book out into the world.&#8221; And then I ran into the brick wall of: it's really hard to be a writer. It's almost easier to write something than to get it published.</p> <p>I had to learn a ton, and it took nine years from when I started writing that first novel, <em>The Depths of the Sea</em>, to when it finally came out. But it was such a positive experience, especially to have something so personal to me as that story. I'd lived in Cambodia for two years, I’d worked on the Thai-Cambodian border, and I'm the child of a Holocaust survivor. So there was a whole lot that was very emotional for me.</p> <p>That set a pattern for the rest of my life as a writer, at least where, in my nonfiction books, I'm thinking about whatever the issues are that are most important to me. Whether it was that historical book, which was my first book, or <em>Hacking Darwin</em> on the future of human genetic engineering, which was my last book, or <em>Superconvergence</em>, which, as you mentioned in the intro, is my current book.</p> <p>But in every one of those stories, the human element is so deep and so profound. You can get at some of that in nonfiction, but I've also loved exploring those issues in deeper ways in my fiction.</p> <p>So in my more recent novels, <em>Genesis Code</em> and <em>Eternal Sonata</em>, I've looked at the human side of the story of genetic engineering and human life extension. And now my agent has just submitted my new novel, <em>Virtuoso</em>, about the intersection of AI, robotics, and classical music.</p> <p>With all of this, who knows what's the real difference between fiction and nonfiction? We're all humans trying to figure things out on many different levels.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Shifting from History to Future Tech</h3> <p>Jo: I knew that you were a polymath, someone who's interested in so many things, but the music angle with robotics and AI is fascinating.</p> <p>I do just want to ask you, because I was also at Oxford – what college were you at?</p> <p>Jamie: I was in St. Antony's.</p> <p>Jo: I was at Mansfield, so we were in that slightly smaller, less famous college group, if people don't know.</p> <p>Jamie: You know, but we're small but proud.</p> <p>Jo: Exactly. That's fantastic.</p> <p>You mentioned that you were on the historical side of things at the beginning and now you've moved into technology and also science, because this book <em>Superconvergence</em> has a lot of science. So how did you go from history and the past into science and the future?</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Biology and Seeing the Future Coming</h3> <p>Jamie: It's a great question. I'll start at the end and then back up.</p> <p>A few years ago I was speaking at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, which is one of the big scientific labs here in the United States. I was a guest of the director and I was speaking to their 300 top scientists.</p> <p>I said to them, &#8220;I'm here to speak with you about the future of biology at the invitation of your director, and I'm really excited. But if you hear something wrong, please raise your hand and let me know, because I'm entirely self-taught. The last biology course I took was in 11th grade of high school in Kansas City.&#8221;</p> <p>Of course I wouldn't say that if I didn't have a lot of confidence in my process. But in many ways I'm self-taught in the sciences. As you know, Jo, and as all of your listeners know, the foundation of everything is curiosity and then a disciplined process for learning.</p> <p>Even our greatest super-specialists in the world now – whatever their background – the world is changing so fast that if anyone says, &#8220;Oh, I have a PhD in physics/chemistry/biology from 30 years ago,&#8221; the exact topic they learned 30 years ago is less significant than their process for continuous learning.</p> <p>More specifically, in the 1990s I was working on the National Security Council for President Clinton, which is the president’s foreign policy staff. My then boss and now close friend, Richard Clarke – who became famous as the guy who had tragically predicted 9/11 – used to say that the key to efficacy in Washington and in life is to try to solve problems that other people can't see.</p> <p>For me, almost 30 years ago, I felt to my bones that this intersection of what we now call AI and the nascent genetics revolution and the nascent biotechnology revolution was going to have profound implications for humanity. So I just started obsessively educating myself.</p> <p>When I was ready, I started writing obscure national security articles. Those got a decent amount of attention, so I was invited to testify before the United States Congress. I was speaking out a lot, saying, &#8220;Hey, this is a really important story. A lot of people are missing it. Here are the things we should be thinking about for the future.&#8221;</p> <p>I wasn't getting the kind of traction that I wanted. I mentioned before that my first book had been this dry Oxford PhD dissertation, and that had led to my first novel. So I thought, why don't I try the same approach again – writing novels to tell this story about the genetics, biotech, and what later became known popularly as the AI revolution?</p> <p>That led to my two near-term sci-fi novels, <em>Genesis Code</em> and <em>Eternal Sonata</em>. On my book tours for those novels, when I explained the underlying science to people in my way, as someone who taught myself, I could see in their eyes that they were recognizing not just that something big was happening, but that they could understand it and feel like they were part of that story.</p> <p>That's what led me to write <em>Hacking Darwin</em>, as I mentioned. That book really unlocked a lot of things. I had essentially predicted the CRISPR babies that were born in China before it happened – down to the specific gene I thought would be targeted, which in fact was the case.</p> <p>After that book was published, Dr. Tedros, the Director-General of the World Health Organization, invited me to join the WHO Expert Advisory Committee on Human Genome Editing, which I did. It was a really great experience and got me thinking a lot about the upside of this revolution and the downside.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>The Birth of <em>Superconvergence</em></strong></h3> <p>Jamie: I get a lot of wonderful invitations to speak, and I have two basic rules for speaking:</p> <ol class="wp-block-list"> <li>Never use notes. Never ever.</li> <li>Never stand behind a podium. Never ever.</li> </ol> <p>Because of that, when I speak, my talks tend to migrate. I’d be speaking with people about the genetics revolution as it applied to humans, and I'd say, &#8220;Well, this is just a little piece of a much bigger story.&#8221;</p> <p>The bigger story is that after nearly four billion years of life on Earth, our one species has the increasing ability to engineer novel intelligence and re-engineer life. The big question for us, and frankly for the world, is whether we're going to be able to use that almost godlike superpower wisely.</p> <p>As that idea got bigger and bigger, it became this inevitable force. You write so many books, Jo, that I think it's second nature for you. Every time I finish a book, I think, &#8220;Wow, that was really hard. I'm never doing that again.&#8221; And then the books creep up on you. They call to you. At some point you say, &#8220;All right, now I'm going to do it.&#8221;</p> <p>So that was my current book, <em>Superconvergence</em>. Like everything, every journey you take a step, and that step inspires another step and another. That's why writing and living creatively is such a wonderfully exciting thing – there's always more to learn and always great opportunities to push ourselves in new ways.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Balancing Deep Research with Good Storytelling</h3> <p>Jo: Yeah, absolutely. I love that you've followed your curiosity and then done this disciplined process for learning. I completely understand that.</p> <p>But one of the big issues with people like us who love the research – and having read your <em>Superconvergence</em>, I know how deeply you go into this and how deeply you care that it's correct – is that with fiction, one of the big problems with too much research is the danger of brain-dumping.</p> <p>Readers go to fiction for escapism. They want the interesting side of it, but they want a story first.</p> <p>What are your tips for authors who might feel like, &#8220;Where's the line between putting in my research so that it's interesting for readers, but not going too far and turning it into a textbook?&#8221; How do you find that balance?</p> <p>Jamie: It's such a great question.</p> <p>I live in New York now, but I used to live in Washington when I was working for the U.S. government, and there were a number of people I served with who later wrote novels. Some of those novels felt like policy memos with a few sex scenes – and that's not what to do.</p> <p>To write something that's informed by science or really by anything, everything needs to be subservient to the story and the characters. The question is: what is the essential piece of information that can convey something that's both important to your story and your character development, and is also an accurate representation of the world as you want it to be?</p> <p>I certainly write novels that are set in the future – although some of them were a future that's now already happened because I wrote them a long time ago. You can make stuff up, but as an author you have to decide what your connection to existing science and existing technology and the existing world is going to be.</p> <p>I come at it from two angles. One: I read a huge number of scientific papers and think, &#8220;What does this mean for now, and if you extrapolate into the future, where might that go?&#8221;</p> <p>Two: I think about how to condense things. We've all read books where you're humming along because people read fiction for story and emotional connection, and then you hit a bit like: &#8220;I sat down in front of the president, and the president said, &#8216;Tell me what I need to know about the nuclear threat.'&#8221; And then it’s like: insert memo. That's a deal-killer.</p> <p>It's like all things – how do you have a meaningful relationship with another person? It's not by just telling them your story. Even when you're telling them something about you, you need to be imagining yourself sitting in their shoes, hearing you.</p> <p>These are very different disciplines, fiction and nonfiction. But for the speculative nonfiction I write – &#8220;here's where things are now, and here's where the world is heading&#8221; – there's a lot of imagination that goes into that too. It feels in many ways like we're living in a sci-fi world because the rate of technological change has been accelerating continuously, certainly for the last 12,000 years since the dawn of agriculture.</p> <p>It's a balance.</p> <p>For me, I feel like I'm a better fiction writer because I write nonfiction, and I'm a better nonfiction writer because I write fiction. When I'm writing nonfiction, I don't want it to be boring either – I want people to feel like there's a story and characters and that they can feel themselves inside that story.</p> <p>Jo: Yeah, definitely. I think having some distance helps as well. If you're really deep into your topics, as you are, you have to leave that manuscript a little bit so you can go back with the eyes of the reader as opposed to your eyes as the expert. Then you can get their experience, which is great.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Looking Beyond Author-Focused AI Fears</h3> <p>Jo: I want to come to your technical knowledge, because AI is a big thing in the author and creative community, like everywhere else.</p> <p>One of the issues is that creators are focusing on just this tiny part of the impact of AI, and there's a much bigger picture. For example, in 2024, Demis Hassabis from Google DeepMind and his collaborative partner John Jumper won the Nobel Prize for Chemistry with AlphaFold.</p> <p>It feels to me like there's this massive world of what's happening with AI in health, climate, and other areas, and yet we are so focused on a lot of the negative stuff.</p> <p>Maybe you could give us a couple of things about what there is to be excited and optimistic about in terms of AI-powered science?</p> <p>Jamie: Sure. I'm so excited about all of the new opportunities that AI creates. But I also think there's a reason why evolution has preserved this very human feeling of anxiety: because there are real dangers.</p> <p>Anybody who's Pollyanna-ish and says, &#8220;Oh, the AI story is inevitably positive,&#8221; I’d be distrustful. And anyone who says, &#8220;We're absolutely doomed, this is the end of humanity,&#8221; I'd also be distrustful.</p> <p>So let me tell you the positives and the negatives, and maybe some thoughts about how we navigate toward the former and away from the latter.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">AI as the New Electricity</h3> <p>Jamie: When people think of AI right now, they’re thinking very narrowly about these AI tools and ChatGPT. But we don't think of electricity that way.</p> <p>Nobody says, &#8220;I know electricity – electricity is what happens at the power station.&#8221; We've internalised the idea that electricity is woven into not just our communication systems or our houses, but into our clothes, our glasses – it's woven into everything and has super-empowered almost everything in our modern lives.</p> <p>That's what AI is.</p> <p>In <em>Superconvergence</em>, the majority of the book is about positive opportunities:</p> <p>In healthcare, moving from generalised healthcare based on population averages to personalised or precision healthcare based on a molecular understanding of each person's individual biology.</p> <p>As we build these massive datasets like the UK Biobank, we can take a next jump toward predictive and preventive healthcare, where we're able to address health issues far earlier in the process, when interventions can be far more benign.</p> <p>I'm really excited about that, not to mention the incredible new kinds of treatments – gene therapies, or pharmaceuticals based on genetics and systems-biology analyses of patients.</p> <p>Then there's agriculture. Over the last hundred years, because of the technologies of the Green Revolution and synthetic fertilisers, we've had an incredible increase in agricultural productivity. That's what's allowed us to quadruple the global population.</p> <p>But if we just continue agriculture as it is, as we get towards ten billion wealthier, more empowered people wanting to eat like we eat, we're going to have to wipe out all the wild spaces on Earth to feed them.</p> <p>These technologies help provide different paths toward increasing agricultural productivity with fewer inputs of land, water, fertiliser, insecticides, and pesticides. That's really positive.</p> <p>I could go on and on about these positives – and I do – but there are very real negatives.</p> <p>I was a member of the WHO Expert Advisory Committee on Human Genome Editing after the first CRISPR babies were very unethically created in China. I'm extremely aware that these same capabilities have potentially incredible upsides and very real downsides. That's the same as every technology in the past, but this is happening so quickly that it's triggering a lot of anxieties.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Governance, Responsibility, and Why Everyone Has a Role</h3> <p>Jamie: The question now is: how do we optimise the benefits and minimise the harms? The short, unsexy word for that is <em>governance</em>.</p> <p>Governance is not just what governments do; it's what all of us do. That's why I try to write books, both fiction and nonfiction, to bring people into this story.</p> <p>If people &#8220;other&#8221; this story – if they say, &#8220;There's a technology revolution, it has nothing to do with me, I'm going to keep my head down&#8221; – I think that's dangerous.</p> <p>The way we're going to handle this as responsibly as possible is if everybody says, &#8220;I have some role. Maybe it's small, maybe it's big. The first step is I need to educate myself. Then I need to have conversations with people around me. I need to express my desires, wishes, and thoughts – with political leaders, organisations I’m part of, businesses.&#8221;</p> <p>That has to happen at every level.</p> <p>You're in the UK – you know the anti-slavery movement started with a handful of people in Cambridge and grew into a global movement. I really believe in the power of ideas, but ideas don't spread on their own. These are very human networks, and that's why writing, speaking, communicating – probably for every single person listening to this podcast – is so important.</p> <p>Jo: Mm, yeah.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Fiction Like <em>AI 2041</em> and Thinking Through the Issues</h3> <p>Jo: Have you read <a href="https://amzn.to/4r8iPlm" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title=""><em>AI 2041</em> by Kai-Fu Lee</a> and Chen Qiufan?</p> <p>Jamie: No. I heard a bunch of their interviews when the book came out, but I haven't read it.</p> <p>Jo: I think that's another good one because it's fiction – a whole load of short stories. It came out a few years ago now, but the issues they cover in the stories, about different people in different countries – I remember one about deepfakes – make you think more about the topics and help you figure out where you stand.</p> <p>I think that's the issue right now: it's so complex, there are so many things. I'm generally positive about AI, but of course I don't want autonomous drone weapons, you know?</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">The Messy Reality of “Bad” Technologies</h3> <p>Jamie: Can I ask you about that? Because this is why it's so complicated.</p> <p>Like you, I think nobody wants autonomous killer drones anywhere in the world. But if you right now were the defence minister of Ukraine, and your children are being kidnapped, your country is being destroyed, you're fighting for your survival, you're getting attacked every night – and you're getting attacked by the Russians, who are investing more and more in autonomous killer robots – you kind of have two choices.</p> <p>You can say, &#8220;I'm going to surrender,&#8221; or, &#8220;I'm going to use what technology I have available to defend myself, and hopefully fight to either victory or some kind of stand-off.&#8221;</p> <p>That's what our societies did with nuclear weapons. Maybe not every American recognises that Churchill gave Britain's nuclear secrets to America as a way of greasing the wheels of the Anglo-American alliance during the Second World War – but that was our programme: we couldn't afford to lose that war, and we couldn't afford to let the Nazis get nuclear weapons before we did.</p> <p>So there's the abstract feeling of, &#8220;I'm against all war in the abstract. I'm against autonomous killer robots in the abstract.&#8221; But if I were the defence minister of Ukraine, I would say, &#8220;What will it take for us to build the weapons we can use to defend ourselves?&#8221;</p> <p>That's why all this stuff gets so complicated. And frankly, it's why the relationship between fiction and nonfiction is so important.</p> <p>If every novel had a situation where every character said, &#8220;Oh, I know exactly the right answer,&#8221; and then they just did the right answer and it was obviously right, it wouldn't make for great fiction.</p> <p>We're dealing with really complex humans. We have conflicting impulses. We're not perfect. Maybe there are no perfect answers – but how do we strive toward better rather than worse? That’s the question.</p> <p>Jo: Absolutely. I don't want to get too political on things.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">How AI Is Changing the Writing Life</h3> <p>Jo: Let's come back to authors.</p> <p>In terms of the creative process, the writing process, the research process, and the business of being an author – what are some of the ways that you already use AI tools, and some of the ways, given your futurist brain, that you think things are going to change for us?</p> <p>Jamie: Great question. I'll start with a little middle piece.</p> <p>I found you, Jo, through GPT-5. I asked ChatGPT, &#8220;I'm coming out with this book and I want to connect with podcasters who are a little different from the ones I've done in the past. I've been a guest on Joe Rogan twice and some of the bigger podcasts. Make me a list of really interesting people I can have great conversations with.&#8221;</p> <p>That's how I found you. So this is one reward of that process.</p> <p>Let me say that in the last year I've worked on three books, and I'll explain how my relationship with AI has changed over those books.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Cleaning Up Citations (and Getting Burned)</h3> <p>Jamie: First is the highly revised paperback edition of <em>Superconvergence</em>.</p> <p>When the hardback came out, I had – I don't normally work with research assistants because I like to dig into everything myself – but the one thing I do use a research assistant for is that I can't be bothered, when I'm writing something, to do the full Chicago-style footnote if I'm already referencing an academic paper.</p> <p>So I'd just put the URL as the footnote and then hire a research assistant and say, &#8220;Go to this URL and change it into a Chicago-style citation. That's it.&#8221;</p> <p>Unfortunately, my research assistant on the hardback used early-days ChatGPT for that work. He did the whole thing, came back, everything looked perfect. I said, &#8220;Wow, amazing job.&#8221;</p> <p>It was only later, as I was going through them, that I realised something like 50% of them were invented footnotes. It was very painful to go back and fix, and it took ten times more time.</p> <p>With the paperback edition, I didn't use AI that much, but I did say things like, &#8220;Here's all the information – generate a Chicago-style citation.&#8221; That was better.</p> <p>I noticed there were a few things where I stopped using the thesaurus function on Microsoft Word because I'd just put the whole paragraph into the AI and say, &#8220;Give me ten other options for this one word,&#8221; and it would be like a contextual thesaurus. That was pretty good.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Talking to a Robot Pianist Character</h3> <p>Jamie: Then, for my new novel <em>Virtuoso</em>, I was writing a character who is a futurist robot that plays the piano very beautifully – not just humanly, but almost finding new things in the music we've written and composing music that resonates with us.</p> <p>I described the actions of that robot in the novel, but I didn't describe the inner workings of the robot’s mind.</p> <p>In thinking about that character, I realised I was the first science-fiction writer in history who could interrogate a machine about what it was &#8220;thinking&#8221; in a particular context.</p> <p>I had the most beautiful conversations with ChatGPT, where I would give scenarios and ask, &#8220;What are you thinking? What are you feeling in this context?&#8221;</p> <p>It was all background for that character, but it was truly profound.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Co-Authoring <em>The AI Ten Commandments</em> with GPT-5</h3> <p>Jamie: Third, I have another book coming out in May in the United States.</p> <p>I gave a talk this summer at the Chautauqua Institution in upstate New York about AI and spirituality. I talked about the history of our human relationship with our technology, about how all our religious and spiritual traditions have deep technological underpinnings – certainly our Abrahamic religions are deeply connected to farming, and Protestantism to the printing press.</p> <p>Then I had a section about the role of AI in generating moral codes that would resonate with humans.</p> <p>Everybody went nuts for this talk, and I thought, &#8220;I think I'm going to write a book.&#8221; I decided to write it differently, with GPT-5 as my <em>named</em> co-author.</p> <p>The first thing I did was outline the entire book based on the talk, which I’d already spent a huge amount of time thinking about and organising. Then I did a full outline of the arguments and structures. Then I trained GPT-5 on my writing style.</p> <p>The way I did it – which I fully describe in the introduction to the book – was that I'd handle all the framing: the full introduction, the argument, the structure.</p> <p>But if there was a section where, for a few paragraphs, I was summarising a huge field of data, even something I knew well, I'd give GPT-5 the intro sentence and say, &#8220;In my writing style, prepare four paragraphs on this.&#8221;</p> <p>For example, I might write: &#8220;AI has the potential to see us humans like we humans see ant colonies.&#8221; Then I’d say, &#8220;Give me four paragraphs on the relationship between the individual and the collective in ant colonies.&#8221;</p> <p>I <em>could</em> have written those four paragraphs myself, but it would’ve taken a month to read the life’s work of E.O. Wilson and then write them. GPT-5 wrote them in seconds or minutes, in its thinking mode.</p> <p>I'd then say, &#8220;It's not quite right – change this, change that,&#8221; and we'd go back and forth three or four times. Then I’d edit the whole thing and put it into the text.</p> <p>So this book that I could have written on my own in a year, I wrote a first draft of with GPT-5 as my named co-author in two days. The whole project will take about six months from start to finish, and I'm having massive human editing – multiple edits from me, plus a professional editor.</p> <p>It's not a magic AI button. But I feel strongly about listing GPT-5 as a co-author because I've written it differently than previous books.</p> <p>I'm a huge believer in the old-fashioned lone author struggling and suffering – that’s in my novels, and in <em>Virtuoso</em> I explore that. But other forms are going to emerge, just like video games are a creative, artistic form deeply connected to technology.</p> <p>The novel hasn’t been around forever – the current format is only a few centuries old – and forms are always changing.</p> <p>There are real opportunities for authors, and there will be so much crap flooding the market because everybody can write something and put it up on Amazon. But I think there will be a very special place for thoughtful human authors who have an idea of what humans do at our best, and who translate that into content other humans can enjoy.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Traditional vs Indie: Why This Book Will Be Self-Published</h3> <p>Jo: I'm interested – you mentioned that it's your named co-author. Is this book going through a traditional publisher, and what do they think about that? Or are you going to publish it yourself?</p> <p>Jamie: It's such a smart question.</p> <p>What I found quickly is that when you get to be an author later in your career, you have all the infrastructure – a track record, a fantastic agent, all of that. But there were two things that were really important to me here:</p> <ol class="wp-block-list"> <li>I wanted to get this book out really fast – six months instead of a year and a half.</li> <li>It was essential to me to have GPT-5 listed as my co-author, because if it were just my name, I feel like it would be dishonest. Readers who are used to reading my books – I didn't want to present something different than what it was.</li> </ol> <p>I spoke with my agent, who I absolutely love, and she said that for this particular project it was going to be really hard in traditional publishing.</p> <p>So I did a huge amount of research, because I'd never done anything in the self-publishing world before. I looked at different models. There was one hybrid model that's basically the same as traditional, but you pay for the things the publisher would normally pay for.</p> <p>I ended up not doing that. Instead, I decided on a self-publishing route where I disaggregated the publishing process. I found three teams: one for producing the book, one for getting the book out into the world, and a smaller one for the audiobook.</p> <p>I still believe in traditional publishing – there's a lot of wonderful human value-add. But some works just don't lend themselves to traditional publishing. For this book, which is called <em>The AI Ten Commandments</em>, that's the path I've chosen.</p> <p>Jo: And when's that out? I think people will be interested.</p> <p>Jamie: April 26th.</p> <p>Those of us used to traditional publishing think, &#8220;I've finished the book, sold the proposal, it’ll be out any day now,&#8221; and then it can be a year and a half. It's frustrating.</p> <p>With this, the process can be much faster because it's possible to control more of the variables. But the key – as I was saying – is to make sure it's as good a book as everything else you've written. It's great to speed up, but you don't want to compromise on quality.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">The Coming Flood of Excellent AI-Generated Work</h3> <p>Jo: Yeah, absolutely.</p> <p>We're almost out of time, but I want to come back to your &#8220;flood of crap&#8221; and the &#8220;AI slop&#8221; idea that's going around. Because you are working with GPT-5 – and I do as well, and I work with Claude and Gemini – and right now there are still issues. Like you said about referencing, there are still hallucinations, though fewer.</p> <p>But fast-forward two, five years: it's not a flood of crap. It's a flood of excellent. It's a flood of stuff that's better than us.</p> <p>Jamie: We're humans. It's better than us in certain ways. If you have farm machinery, it's better than us at certain aspects of farming.</p> <p>I'm a true humanist. I think there will be lots of things machines do better than us, but there will be tons of things we do better than them.</p> <p>There's a reason humans still care about chess, even though machines can beat humans at chess.</p> <p>Some people are saying things I fully disagree with, like this concept of AGI – artificial general intelligence – where machines do everything better than humans. I've summarised my position in seven letters: &#8220;AGI is BS.&#8221;</p> <p>The only way you can believe in AGI in that sense is if your concept of what a human is and what a human mind is is so narrow that you think it's just a narrow range of analytical skills. We are so much more than that.</p> <p>Humans represent almost four billion years of embodied evolution. There's so much about ourselves that we don't know. As incredible as these machines are and will become, there will always be wonderful things humans can do that are different from machines.</p> <p>What I always tell people is: whatever you're doing, don't be a second-rate machine. Be a first-rate human.</p> <p>If you're doing something and a machine is doing that thing much better than you, then shift to something where your unique capacities as a human give you the opportunity to do something better.</p> <p>So yes, I totally agree that the quality of AI-generated stuff will get better. But I think the most creative and successful humans will be the ones who say, &#8220;I recognise that this is creating new opportunities, and I'm going to insert my core humanity to do something magical and new.&#8221;</p> <p>People are &#8220;othering&#8221; these technologies, but the technologies themselves are magnificent human-generated artefacts. They're not alien UFOs that landed here.</p> <p>It's a scary moment for creatives, no doubt, because there are things all of us did in the past that machines can now do really well. But this is the moment where the most creative people ask themselves, &#8220;What does it mean for <em>me</em> to be a great human?&#8221;</p> <p>The pat answers won't apply.</p> <p>In my <em>Virtuoso</em> novel I explore that a lot. The idea that &#8220;machines don't do creativity&#8221; – they <em>will</em> do incredible creativity; it just won't be exactly human creativity. We will be potentially huge beneficiaries of these capabilities, but we really have to believe in and invest in the magic of our core humanity.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Where to Find Jamie and His Books</h3> <p>Jo: Brilliant. So where can people find you and your books online?</p> <p>Jamie: Thank you so much for asking.</p> <p>My website is <a href="https://jamiemetzl.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">jamiemetzl.com</a> – and my books are available everywhere.</p> <p>Jo: Fantastic. Thanks so much for your time, Jamie. That was great.</p> <p>Jamie: Thank you, Joanna.</p><p>The post <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/2025/11/24/writing-the-future-and-being-more-human-in-an-age-of-ai-with-jamie-metzl/">Writing The Future, And Being More Human In An Age of AI With Jamie Metzl</a> first appeared on <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com">The Creative Penn</a>.</p>

<p>In early November 2025, I attended and spoke at Author Nation in Las Vegas. It was a fantastic conference for authors at all levels, and in this episode, I share my lessons learned and tips from reflecting on the event.</p> <p>In the intro, scam emails and what to watch out for; <a href="https://newsroom.spotify.com/2025-11-13/audiobook-recaps-beta-test/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Spotify launches Recaps</a>, and how I currently self-publish audiobooks; <a href="https://creativepennbooks.com/products/successful-self-publishing-fourth-edition-audiobook" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title=""><em>Successful Self-Publishing 4th Edition</em> free audiobook</a>; <a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLslagQBJ_NCR_mgd_PdOFS-AdOdSptDF7" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">My audiobooks on YouTube The Creative Penn</a> / <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@jfpennauthor" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Fiction/memoir audiobooks on JFPennAuthor</a>; <a href="https://insights.bookbub.com/email-marketing-authors-grow-list/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">22 ways to grow your author email list [BookBub</a>]; <a href="https://www.buzzsprout.com/2121723/episodes/18169217-behind-the-scenes-at-author-nation-2025-take-aways-vendor-interviews-and-vegas-stories" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Author Nation with the Wish I’d Known Then Podcast</a>; and <em><a href="https://creativepennbooks.com/collections/your-author-business-plan" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Your Author Business Plan</a></em> on special. </p> <figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><a href="https://www.bookfunnel.com/thecreativepenn/" target="_blank" rel=" noreferrer noopener"><img decoding="async" width="1024" height="249" src="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/BookFunnel-1-1024x249.png" alt="Bookfunnel" class="wp-image-37166" srcset="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/BookFunnel-1-1024x249.png 1024w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/BookFunnel-1-300x73.png 300w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/BookFunnel-1-768x187.png 768w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/BookFunnel-1.png 1514w" sizes="(max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px" /></a></figure> <p>Bookfunnel, the essential tool for your author business, sponsors today's show. Whether it’s delivering your reader magnet, sending out advanced copies of your book, handing out ebooks at a conference, or fulfilling your digital sales to readers, BookFunnel does it all. Check it out at&nbsp;<a href="https://bookfunnel.com/thecreativepenn/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">bookfunnel.com/thecreativepenn</a></p> <figure class="wp-block-image size-full"><a href="https://creativepennbooks.com/" target="_blank" rel=" noreferrer noopener"><img decoding="async" width="855" height="295" src="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Joanna-Penn-author-business.png" alt="" class="wp-image-37206" srcset="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Joanna-Penn-author-business.png 855w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Joanna-Penn-author-business-300x104.png 300w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Joanna-Penn-author-business-768x265.png 768w" sizes="(max-width: 855px) 100vw, 855px" /></a></figure> <p>Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, and memoir as <a href="https://jfpennbooks.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">J.F. Penn</a>. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/speaking/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">professional speaker</a>.</p> <ul class="wp-block-list"> <li>Double down on being human and the importance of connection in person (if possible)</li> <li>Constraints breed creativity</li> <li>What do you need for a long-term sustainable career as an author?</li> <li>How do you want your author business to run?</li> <li>What are your contingency plans for when things don’t go as planned?</li> <li>Money management tips —<a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/moneybooks/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">&nbsp;books and resources here</a></li> <li>How do you know when to work with a company as part of your author business?&nbsp;How to assess vendors and services.</li> <li>Thoughts from others</li> </ul> <p>You can find Author Nation at <a href="https://www.authornation.live/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">AuthorNation.live</a>. You can find my books on writing craft and author business in all formats at <a href="https://creativepennbooks.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">CreativePennBooks.com</a>, or on your favourite online store, or request at your local bookstore or library. </p> <figure class="wp-block-image size-full"><img decoding="async" width="1000" height="315" src="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/JPennAuthorNation25.png" alt="" class="wp-image-37205" srcset="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/JPennAuthorNation25.png 1000w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/JPennAuthorNation25-300x95.png 300w, https://www.thecreativepenn.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/JPennAuthorNation25-768x242.png 768w" sizes="(max-width: 1000px) 100vw, 1000px" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Jo Penn walking the strip, by the luxor; with Mark lefebvre, johnny B. truant & dan wood (d2d), and with sacha black and orna ross, las vegas, nov 2025</figcaption></figure> <h2 class="wp-block-heading">Lessons Learned from Author Nation 2025</h2> <p>In early November 2025, I attended <a href="https://www.authornation.live/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Author Nation</a> in Las Vegas along with around 1500 other authors, and lots of vendors. There were about 80 different sessions over four days and a Reader Nation signing and book sales event. The sessions were on different tracks so you could go to basic craft and self-publishing things, or more advanced sessions on author business and mindset.</p> <p>I spoke several times, once as part of a panel on long-term career strategies, once in my own solo session on collaboration with AI, all the things you can use AI for that are not writing, and once in a private meet up for my Patrons.&nbsp;</p> <p>Congratulations to the Author Nation team for delivering such a fantastic conference! I know how hard everyone worked and it went super well from what I could see. If you’re interested in learning more, just go to <a href="https://www.authornation.live/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">https://www.authornation.live/</a></p> <p>Here are some of my thoughts from the 2025 conference, but of course, remember, I am a writing conference veteran and have been an author entrepreneur for a long time, so my takeaways will be different to someone who is at a different place in their career. &nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">(1) Double down on being human, and the importance of connection in person (if possible)</h3> <p><br>To be clear, I know this isn’t possible for everyone, because of time or money or health reasons, or caring responsibilities, as Donn’s recent interview illustrated. But if you can, it’s always worth going to conferences in person.&nbsp;</p> <p>If you attend, organise well in advance. Schedule meetings early, but also leave room for serendipity. Make the most of meeting people at your level; build your network. There were people I hadn’t seen for years at Author Nation, so much elbow bumping, human connection — and LOTS of coffee.<br><br>While I attended a few sessions, most of my time was back-to-back meetings and chats with other authors and vendors, and we had a great Patreon meet-up with over 100 people.<br><br>Author conferences are a great way to build relationships, and if you start with people at your level now, over time, you will all grow and change, and people will become successful in different ways, or disappear sometimes.</p> <p>The longer you are in this business, and the more you join in and help others, the more people you get to know and social karma kicks in. Some of those relationships naturally turn into business opportunities, and other author friends will be your support crew over the inevitable challenging years ahead.<br><br>So if you feel like you don’t have any author friends, or know enough people at your level, then consider booking an in-person conference for 2026. It could be a genre conference, or a broader overall conference like Author Nation, but get away from your screen and do some peopling! As hard as it is, it’s worth it.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">(2) Constraints breed creativity</h3> <p><a href="https://www.akadrewdavis.com/speaking/speaking" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Drew Davies</a> did the opening keynote, and if you want to be a keynote speaker and get paid the big bucks, then it was a masterclass in professional speaking. </p> <p>I’ve done a lot of speaker training and it was inspiring to watch Drew’s presentation and consider how he used multimedia, how he engaged with different mediums, how he made people laugh, and brought emotion in, as well as deliver a message.<br><br>If you’re ever in sessions or at events and you want to learn on a different level, consider the person and their skill —&nbsp;or lack of it —&nbsp;instead of the content. You can learn a lot from watching or listening to the person delivering, and how they speak or teach or react to the room.<br><br>Drew’s content was great too, and he spoke on the Cube of Constraints which can be the catalyst for supercharging your creativity. He had an actual cube too, which he built into a sculpture later, part of his multi-faceted teaching style.<br><br>In a world of unlimited possibilities, it’s hard to stick to one choice, and especially if you listen to author podcasts like this one, or go to conferences where you ingest a ton of sessions like Author Nation, you will have hundreds of ideas, and you can have popcorn brain with things firing off everywhere.<br><br>But if you don’t settle into one thing and focus, you might not achieve much, so Drew recommended deliberately constraining your work in 4 ways.&nbsp;<br></p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">(a) Eliminate the unnecessary</h3> <p>What can you <em>stop</em> doing in order to pursue the new thing? If you start something new, kill two things. Kill the easy one, then kill the hard one.<br><br>When I was writing my first book and trying to exit my day job to become a full-time author, I gave up TV and this was before smartphones and social media, so that wasn’t even a distraction. Giving up TV in the evenings gave me the time I needed to build a new direction. You have to make the time somehow. &nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">(b) Define the outcome</h3> <p>What single result defines success? For example, with my first novel, <em>Pentecost</em>, which became <a href="https://jfpennbooks.com/collections/stone-of-fire" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title=""><em>Stone of Fire</em>,</a> the goal was to publish it on Amazon by my birthday. I ended up falling short by about a month, but a birthday-related goal is always a good one as it’s so memorable and clear.&nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">(c) Limit your options</h3> <p>What unreasonable limitations can you apply to your project? </p> <p>Give it a time limit, and a creative limit. That creative limit is a good one, for example, if you constrain the genre or the number of POV characters in your book, it will make it easier to achieve your goal.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">(d) Raise the stakes</h3> <p>What specifically will happen if you fail? </p> <p>This is a tough one, as it’s so personal. For me, I like achieving goals, and so failing a goal is a big enough stake for me. Some people talk about signing a cheque to a charity they hate or something and sending it off if they fail, but that doesn't motivate me. Whatever floats your boat, but decide what the stakes are. As we know with writing fiction, high stakes are important to keep things moving!&nbsp;</p> <p>Drew also talked about <strong>turning constraints you already have, like time and budget, into positives</strong>. </p> <p>This kind of reframing can help you embrace your situation. For example, if you only have 30 minutes per day to write while commuting, well, so be it. Try dictating or typing on your phone, and I know several authors who have written many books during a work commute. Or busy mums who dictate while doing chores. </p> <p>Or again, <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/2025/11/03/creating-while-caring-with-donn-king/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">coming back to Donn’s interview, if you’re a carer,</a> raging against it may not help as much as adapting and changing your creative goals and being more relaxed about time.</p> <p>I’ve embraced my constraints recently as I’m doing this Masters in Death, Religion, and Culture. It’s full-time, so I am doing at least 20 hours a week of study and online lectures and reading on some really interesting topics. I’m writing essays, so I don’t have time or the headspace to write books, too. I’m currently working on three essays —&nbsp;one on natural burial, one on the ethics of using dead bodies to inspire commercial fiction, and one on the depiction of hell in an area of art history.</p> <p>I am clearly <strong>collecting ideas for when I am ready to write fiction again</strong>, but the constraint of study is focusing my mind on the bare minimum I need to do to keep my author business running and the money coming in. My <a href="https://www.booksandtravel.page/listen/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Books and Travel Podcast</a> is going on hiatus again soon, and I’m going to do fewer interviews here in 2026.&nbsp;</p> <p>What constraints do you have, and how can you reframe them? Or how can you add constraints rather than giving yourself unlimited possibilities?&nbsp;</p> <h2 class="wp-block-heading">(3) What do you need for a long-term sustainable career?&nbsp;</h2> <p>Becca Syme did a talk on sustainability for a long-term career, which tied into the theme of Author Nation, which was ‘Build your best life through writing.’ </p> <p><a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/2025/10/27/loki-is-in-charge-how-authors-can-thrive-in-a-time-of-transition-with-becca-syme/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Becca was on the show recently &#8211; Loki is in charge</a> &#8211; and she is always worth listening to as she will definitely say something challenging in any session.</p> <p>Becca started with <strong>a need for basic self-knowledge</strong>. Do you know yourself well enough to understand what works for you, and what you’re capable of doing? Do you know what to say yes to and what to say no to? How are you learning more about yourself and your personality? </p> <p>There’s always a lot of talk about the Clifton Strengths Assessment as that’s what Becca specialises in, and I have found that very useful. I also love Myers Briggs. I’m INFJ, which is uncommon in the wider population but very common in the author community.&nbsp;</p> <p>Some of the other things Becca talked about included <strong>understanding the limits of your energy so you don’t burn out</strong>, and making sure you reflect on and audit tasks so you know what to do more of and what to get rid of. For example, it’s more common now to find some authors who are not doing social media <em>at all</em>, or are reducing it because it doesn’t feed them, whereas others love it as the basis of their business.&nbsp;</p> <p>Becca also talked about the need for a <strong>‘personal growth stimulator,’ </strong>a way to make sure you’re always learning and growing and finding community. For me, that’s mostly listening to podcasts and reading books, and at the moment, my Masters course, which is mostly reading a lot of sources and then writing essays on diverse topics.&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;Becca also said you need to do a business edit and/or a persona edit every now and then, as — </p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">You are likely over-committed, either personally or in business. </h3> <p>You need to take things OFF your plate, not keep adding more. She said, “When you prune a tree, it grows more.”</p> <p>Also, one very key point:&nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">If you can’t tell whether something is working or not, it’s not working.&nbsp;</h3> <p>My take on this is about understanding ‘ease.’ What is easy for you? What do you love that other people think is hard?&nbsp;</p> <p>For example, people often ask me, how do I find time to learn so much about what’s going on, and input so much, so I can share with you every week? Well, my top 5 Clifton Strengths are Learner, Intellection, Strategic, Input, and Futuristic. By my very nature, I am constantly inputting and learning and thinking, and considering the impact on the future. It’s easy and fun for me as I live in the stream of input and I love it!</p> <p>However, my bottom ‘strengths’ i.e. my weaknesses, mean that hard things include peopling and crowds, social energy in person or online, and doing things off the cuff (as I need to plan way in advance).&nbsp;</p> <p>If you do Clifton Strengths or any of the personality tests, it might help you figure things out, but you can also just <strong>pay more attention to what is easy for you, what brings you joy and energy and fun</strong>, versus what drains you and makes you unhappy.&nbsp;</p> <p>Becca also said that you need the <strong>ability to set boundaries</strong> and understand who to say yes to, and who to say no to. You also need a <strong>community for support, care for your physical body, and a source of hope for the future</strong>.&nbsp;</p> <p>I hope I can remain a part of that for you, as I remain hopeful and excited about so many things. Change will continue as ever, but there are more opportunities ahead. What do you need to have in place if you want a long-term sustainable career?&nbsp;</p> <p>You can find many more of Becca’s wise words in her books and also on her <a href="https://betterfasteracademy.com/podcast/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">QuitCast</a> and on her <a href="https://www.patreon.com/c/beccasyme/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Patreon</a>.&nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">(4) How do you want your author business to run?&nbsp;</h3> <p>Katie Cross did a great session on SOPs, Standard Operating Procedures, which are just documents or spreadsheets with step-by-step instructions on specific tasks. </p> <p>They also include sections on <strong>WHY things are done and why they are important to your business</strong>, and I feel like many people miss out on these important aspects, preferring to focus on the ‘how to’ rather than the ‘why’ which is more critical.</p> <p>For example, selling direct is trendy in the indie author community, and some of the numbers thrown around are inspiring, but also need to be questioned, since it is not for everyone, at every stage.</p> <p>I love selling direct through Kickstarter and Shopify in my limited way, but I don’t want a warehouse like Sacha Black or Adam Beswick or David Viergutz. I also don’t recommend selling direct if you don’t have an audience or a budget or a marketing funnel, or time to set up and/or test the technical side of it.</p> <p>Selling direct is not a silver bullet to becoming a successful indie author. It’s also a lot of work, so you need a good reason to commit to it for the long term, and it needs to be part of a considered author business plan.</p> <p>At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what platform you put your book/s on. You won’t sell any copies if you don’t do any marketing, and that is often the side of the author business that is missing.</p> <p>Back to Katie’s talk, I went along because <strong>I’m interested in how we will work with AI agents in the coming years</strong>, <strong>and I want to have SOPs so I can give them to my AI partners</strong>, rather than human assistants. Katie didn’t even mention AI as she is a superstar at working with other humans, but the processes can be used for either/both.&nbsp;</p> <p>She also mentioned that “some SOPs are just for me,” which is a really good point. You can document your own processes, and put at the top: </p> <p><strong>Why am I doing this?</strong> Why is this important to my author business? If you can’t answer the question, maybe you need to eliminate that task altogether.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">(5) What are your contingency plans for when things don’t go to plan?&nbsp;</h3> <p>The team at Author Nation had to deal with lots of challenges. It’s extremely hard to run any conference, let alone a <em>big</em> conference, so congratulations to Joe and Suze, and Chelle, Jamie, Isabella, and the team for pulling it off and doing an amazing job. It went incredibly well, and it is a great conference that I highly recommend for authors.</p> <p>But what happened on the last few days was also a good lesson for all of us in business. </p> <p>James Patterson was meant to be the closing keynote speaker, and do a VIP evening thing, and then sign at Reader Nation the next day, and his attendance in person was a draw card for many. But he got sick and pulled out, only appearing on zoom for a short time instead.&nbsp;</p> <p>On top of that challenge, the government shutdown impacted flights, so many people changed their flights to leave early rather than get caught up in the expected delays.&nbsp;</p> <p>But the Author Nation team did a great job of “the show must go on,” bringing in James Patterson by zoom and then interviewing other successful authors, and the pivot in such a short time was impressive —&nbsp;but it also made me want to reflect on the bigger lesson.</p> <p>Things will not always go to plan.&nbsp;</p> <p>People will disappoint you. So will publishers, so will your own marketing attempts.&nbsp;</p> <p>Readers will leave you one star reviews.&nbsp;</p> <p>People will say things about you that are not true.&nbsp;</p> <p>People will judge you — and that has always been my biggest fear, and yet, it continues to happen.&nbsp;</p> <p>If you are out in the world in public in any way, you will get criticism and rejection, and yes, there will be haters.&nbsp;</p> <p>If you hide and try not to attract any attention at all, no one will find your books, and you won’t sell anything, and you will moan about not selling instead. This is the reality of the author life, so you have to accept that.&nbsp;</p> <p>You can’t let these things stop you. The writing life show must go on.</p> <p>Even if you have everything sorted, something may happen that is outside your control.&nbsp;</p> <p>Like James Patterson cancelling and flights being disrupted, and a political situation that makes people not want to travel, anyway.</p> <p>Like the pandemic.&nbsp;</p> <p>Like the Global Financial Crisis (GFC).&nbsp;</p> <p>Like the dot com crash.&nbsp;</p> <p>All of which I have been through in my working adult life, as will many of you listening. These will not be the only large-scale disruptions in our lifetime, and there will, of course, be personal disruptions that will blindside you too.</p> <p>So what do we do — in addition to keep creating?&nbsp; &nbsp;</p> <p>I talked on the long-term success panel about the biggest mistake I’ve seen authors make, and that is bad financial management.&nbsp;</p> <p>It’s the thing that destroys businesses regardless of what kind of business you run, or what job you have. I have seen many authors hit it big and then spend it all without saving for the inevitable down times, or who take on too much debt, or over-expose themselves to risk. Or those who have one stream of income instead of many, and when that one stream dries up, they have to start again.&nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">That’s what happened to me in the GFC. I had one stream of income — my job. </h3> <p>Then we all got laid off in one day and none of us had work, and that day, back in 2008, was the day I said I would build multiple streams and that no single company would ever be able to take away all my income in one fell swoop again. I now have so many streams of income, I need a pretty developed accounting system to keep track!&nbsp;</p> <p>Hard times will come; they inevitably do, so make sure you have a buffer to weather the storm.&nbsp;</p> <p>To be clear, this is not about the conference business of Author Nation, as Joe and Suze Solari are experienced business people and they know about managing risk and cash flow and all that. Joe has a consulting business that helps authors in that specific way. But many authors are not so experienced in business or money management.&nbsp;</p> <p>If you don’t feel confident in this area, check out my list of resources at <a href="http://www.thecreativepenn.com/moneybooks" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">www.thecreativepenn.com/moneybooks</a> &nbsp;</p> <p>So the question for you here is, how exposed is your author business —&nbsp;or just your life and job in general — to disruption if it’s out of your control? What’s the worst that can happen? Can you build multiple streams of income? Can you make contingency plans?&nbsp;</p> <p>What can you do to de-risk? Within reason of course, but you need to have plans for when things go right, and when things go wrong.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">(6) How do you know when to work with a company as part of your author business?&nbsp;</h3> <p>We use the term ‘self-publishing’ alongside being an ‘indie author,’ but of course, we are not truly independent and you can’t be a successful author on your own. We need service providers and software vendors and publishing partners, and there are many of them trying to catch your attention.&nbsp;</p> <p>It’s always lovely to catch up with various vendors I’ve been working with for years, many of whom I consider friends now, and at Author Nation I spoke to people from Draft2Digital, Bookfunnel, Kickstarter, ProWritingAid, Reedsy, and BookVault, as well as my editor Kristen Tate, and others.&nbsp;</p> <p>There were LOTS of vendors at Author Nation, some with brand new businesses, many I had never heard of, and I wanted to give you some advice about deciding which companies to work with. There are so many these days online and at conferences, and I thought it might be useful to give you a framework.</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Many of the companies are wonderful, but not all are worth it. Only you can decide for your situation, and it will differ depending on where you are in the author journey. </h3> <p>For example, it makes sense for an author working on their first book to spend money on editing, but to avoid vendors who want to help you sell direct as it is way too early for that.&nbsp;</p> <p>Here are some questions I consider when weighing up new vendors or services, or reconsidering them over time, as the industry changes, and my needs change, too.&nbsp;</p> <p>You could always paste these into ChatGPT/Claude/Gemini and ask it to help you evaluate a service if you don’t want to ask the vendor directly.<br>&nbsp;</p> <ol class="wp-block-list"> <li><strong>What purpose does this serve in helping me write, publish, or market my books, or as part of running my author business?</strong> What is the cost versus the return on investment? <strong>How do <em>I</em> make money with this?</strong> How quickly might I get my money back if that is a consideration? Are they asking for a one-off payment, or a subscription? (If you sign up for subscriptions, I recommend paying monthly, even if it is more expensive, so you can reconsider every month and change your mind if necessary).&nbsp;<br></li> <li><strong>How does <em>the company</em> make money?</strong> Remember, if it is free, you are the product in some way, often through advertising. A company that lasts needs sustainable revenue streams, and it might run out of funding at some point and need to change the terms in order to make money. Does the business have a sustainable business model? Do they understand their competitors in the market —&nbsp;and how do they compare with them?&nbsp;<br></li> <li><strong>Who are the team behind the company? </strong>How long have they been in business? Do I trust that they will be around for the long term? Why do they care about authors? If in doubt, are they a Partner Member of the <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/alliance" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Alliance of Independent Authors</a>, which vets terms and conditions and contracts so we know companies can be trusted.&nbsp;</li> </ol> <p>Once you have all this information, you can make a more informed decision as to whether to sign up. </p> <p>And of course, I say all this as I see authors getting excited and making emotional choices without considering their <a href="https://creativepennbooks.com/collections/your-author-business-plan" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">author business plan</a> for the years ahead! Or signing up for so many things, they are overwhelmed.</p> <p>As an example, let’s take BookFunnel — and full disclosure, Bookfunnel was a primary sponsor of AuthorNation, and they sponsor my podcast, and I am an affiliate —&nbsp;because I am a happy user of the service since the beginning and believe it is a great company and useful product (for many authors, but not all.)&nbsp;</p> <p>I’ve used BookFunnel for years to give away my free books, which was primarily a way of marketing to bring people into my ecosystem so they would buy other books, and now I also use them for direct sales of ebooks and audiobooks. I would struggle to make money selling direct without BookFunnel, so yes, they make me money and they are worth the cost. Of course, if you are just writing your first book, you don’t need them yet, so don’t sign up!&nbsp;</p> <p>I pay an annual subscription to use Bookfunnel, as do many thousands of other authors worldwide, so they have consistent cash flow. <a href="https://bookfunnel.com/about/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Damon Courtney, a wonderful coder and fantasy author, founded Bookfunnel a decade ago</a> when he recognised the need in the author community for an easy way to deliver ebooks directly.&nbsp;</p> <p>Every year since, Damon has expanded the offerings, and I know he cares about authors because he IS an author. He also understands his responsibility to the community, and his business has already lasted more than 8 years. Considering most businesses fail within 5 years, any company that has managed for longer is doing well. They also have a succession plan in case anything happens to Damon, and I know this, because I asked him specifically! I’m always thinking about death as you know!&nbsp;</p> <p>I also wanted to mention BookFunnel as they launched personalised, signed ebooks at Author Nation, which is a fantastic feature where you can sign a copy of an ebook for a fan, or personalise it with a message. </p> <p>Of course, I asked about personalised audiobooks which will hopefully come in 2026, as I definitely want to do both of those. Again, this is something for authors with an existing fan base, not brand new authors with no readers yet.</p> <p>I wanted to talk about this kind of financial and market analysis of vendors since — </p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">A big mistake of many new authors is getting ahead of themselves </h3> <p>For example, going to sessions on advertising or Kickstarter when they haven’t even finished a first draft of their first book, or signing up with a vendor or a service too early, and spending money too soon. The industry changes fast, so finish that book first!&nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">The biggest mistake of authors at my level is thinking that things will stay the same, that the way of making money that worked so well 5 or 10 or 20 years ago will still work today.&nbsp;</h3> <p>The industry changes fast, so you will need to keep adapting, and keep letting go of things that don’t work anymore. Either they don’t work anymore because they don’t work for everyone i.e. the industry or the market has changed, or they don’t work for you personally because your life has changed. </p> <p>I certainly have different goals at 50 than I did at 30, and back then, I hustled so much more than I am willing to do now. I am in a different life stage and my author business is mature and stable, so I can do things differently than I did when I was starting out.</p> <p>I started writing seriously for publication in 2005, 20 years ago. I was 30, living in New Zealand and then Australia, and I had just met Jonathan. There was no iPhone, no Kindle or Amazon KDP, no TikTok, no mobile commerce. Ebooks were downloadable PDFs. Audiobooks were still mostly on tape or CD, or they were downloadable MP3s. There was no real infrastructure for an indie author business. The term ‘indie author’ was only starting to be used as a term to be proud of. It was a different world.&nbsp;</p> <p>We are so lucky now to have such a fantastic ecosystem for indie authors, to have so many companies who help us with our writing craft and our author business, and also our community and finding friends along the way. Author conferences are certainly an important part of this, so a big thank you to Joe and Suze Solari and the Author Nation team and all the vendors who supported the show, and all the authors who attended. &nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">7) Thoughts from other people&nbsp;</h3> <p>My perspective is only one view, and I attended Author Nation primarily as a speaker and also as a Patreon host, and of course, as a podcaster, author of several decades, and veteran of many, many author conferences all over the world. I didn’t go to many sessions or take many photos, I didn’t keep a daily log, and most of my interactions were private one-on-one meetings, so I wanted to share a couple of other perspectives, and these people might be listening so hello to —&nbsp;</p> <p><a href="https://arfield22.medium.com/five-overarching-themes-from-author-nation-2025-c573e7918430" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title=""><strong>Amber Field, </strong>who did a post on 5 overarching themes of Author Nation</a> said,</p> <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow"> <p>“My hope was to meet other authors like me and to get inspired to do more book promotion — a task I hate and procrastinate on…badly. I’ve been a&nbsp;published author&nbsp;since 2023, but this was my first writing conference. It really paid off for me! I met amazing authors, got tips for every part of my author business, and just plain had a lot of fun.”</p> </blockquote> <p>The themes she identified were: AI is changing how we work but not necessarily how we write. Absolutely, you can use it for so many things without ever using it for writing, and Amber shared how she got ideas about using AI in marketing from my session and others (and thanks for sharing the lovely picture of us, Amber!)<br><br>Some of her other themes: When it comes to marketing, you don’t have to do everything; as well as Be yourself. She says,</p> <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow"> <p>&nbsp;“None of the most successful authors at the conference followed in another author’s footprints exactly. 100% of them followed a path that can only be described as “doing what they liked”, which often included hopping genres and doing side projects that they found fulfilling.&#8221;</p> </blockquote> <p>So true, and this year, my short story collection and my Masters in Death and certainly evidence of that!&nbsp;Lots more <a href="https://arfield22.medium.com/five-overarching-themes-from-author-nation-2025-c573e7918430" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">detail and photos at Amber’s Medium post here</a>.&nbsp;</p> <p><strong>Pamela Hines,&nbsp;</strong>posted on Substack every day, and in her <a href="https://pdhines.com/author-nation-2025-writing-conferences-matter/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">round-up piece with links to all the daily posts</a>, she says,</p> <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow"> <p>“I went to Author Nation as an editor and coach, but also as a writer in need of reconnection. I wanted to learn, recharge, and see where this rapidly evolving publishing world is headed. I came home with a clearer vision for my work and a renewed faith in what happens when we gather.”</p> </blockquote> <p>She also noted,</p> <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow"> <p>“The first day of any conference begins long before the first keynote. It starts with a decision:&nbsp;<em>to show up. </em>[It’s] the power of presence — of choosing to step back into community even when it feels easier to stay home. For many writers, the hardest part isn’t pitching or networking. It’s walking into the room in the first place. </p> </blockquote> <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow"> <p>Las Vegas may not sound like a literary destination, but Author Nation (following the tradition of&nbsp;<em>20BooksVegas</em>) transforms it into one. Between the hotels, neon, and laughter, I found my people — fellow professionals determined to grow, learn, and connect. The first handshake, the first panel, the first “Oh, you too?” moment reminded me that creativity expands in the presence of others.”</p> </blockquote> <p>At the end of the week, she says,</p> <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow"> <p>“This conference has reminded me never to forget that the thing I work on alone in my writing space is part of a larger whole. That whole includes small entrepreneurs, big corporations, innovative idealists, editors, consultants, and, most importantly, readers.</p> </blockquote> <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow"> <p>We write to share something meaningful. All of it exists to serve a single, simple act—someone reading a story and being changed by it. This conference allowed me to connect directly with that meaning and those individuals. </p> </blockquote> <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow"> <p>As an editor, book coach, and writer, I’m leaving with sharper tools and deeper clarity. But more than that, I’m leaving with gratitude—for the people who read, who believe in story, and who remind me that art isn’t finished until it’s received.”</p> </blockquote> <p>Wonderful posts, Pamela, and I know how much work you put into all that, so thanks for sharing!</p> <p>If you want to get a sense of what happened as well as notes on many of the sessions, and photos, check out <a href="https://substack.com/@pamelahines" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Pamela’s Substack</a>, or <a href="https://pdhines.com/author-nation-2025-writing-conferences-matter/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">her main site with links here</a>.&nbsp;</p> <p>As an aside, I asked ChatGPT to find me posts about Author Nation 2025, and both of these showed up, so Pamela and Amber, congratulations, you are discoverable!&nbsp;</p> <h3 class="wp-block-heading">Conclusion</h3> <p><a href="https://www.authornation.live/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" title="">Author Nation</a> is a fantastic conference, and I highly recommend the show whether you are just starting out, or whether you are a more experienced author.&nbsp;</p> <p>However, I won’t be attending in 2026 as I need a year off Las Vegas. I’ve done three years in a row, and I want to make room for other travel and other possibilities. I’m also doing this full-time Masters which goes through to next autumn, and I don’t know what conferences, if any, I will do in 2026. But as I said, I highly recommend Author Nation, and you never know, I might be back in 2027!&nbsp;</p><p>The post <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com/2025/11/17/lessons-learned-from-author-nation-2025-with-joanna-penn/">Lessons Learned From Author Nation 2025 With Joanna Penn</a> first appeared on <a href="https://www.thecreativepenn.com">The Creative Penn</a>.</p>