Chuck and Kevin Klinkenberg explore why progress comes from people who stop waiting for permission and start doing things locally. They look at incremental developers, neighborhood groups, and the limits of top-down systems in cities like Kansas City. Along the way, they wrestle with incentives, housing, and how much order a city actually needs. Additional Show Notes Kevin Klinkenberg (LinkedIn) The Messy City Podcast (Spotify) The Messy City (Substack) The Messy City (Site) Chuck Marohn (Substack)   This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you!