Journal of Clinical Oncology (JCO) Podcast

Guest Dr. John Wingard and host Dr. Davide Soldato discuss JCO article, "Randomized Non-inferiority Trial of a Liberalized Diet Versus the Neutropenic Diet in Hematopoietic Stem Cell Transplant and Acute Leukemia Patients," the reason behind the trial, its design, methodology, results, and the implications for future dietary approaches in hematology. LINK TO FULL TRANSCRIPT

In this episode of JCO Article Insights, host Dr. Ash Gurumurthi summarizes JCO articles, "Phased Variant–Supported Circulating Tumor DNA as a Prognostic Biomarker After First-Line Treatment in Large B-Cell Lymphoma: Findings From the DIRECT Study" and " Prospective Validation of Circulating Tumor DNA Measurable Residual Disease After First-Line Therapy in Large B-Cell Lymphoma" TRANSCRIPT Ash Gurumurthi: Hi and welcome to JCO Article Insights. I'm your host, Ash Gurumurthi, and today we will be discussing two articles, both published in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, on the real-world utility of circulating tumor DNA (ctDNA) MRD in newly diagnosed large B-cell lymphoma. The first study is the article "Phased-Variant-Supported Circulating Tumor DNA as a Prognostic Biomarker After First-Line Treatment in Large B-Cell Lymphoma: Findings From the DIRECT Study" by Dr. Joanna Krupka and colleagues in the United Kingdom. For the sake of convenience, I'll refer to this as the DIRECT study. The second study is "The Prospective Validation of Circulating Tumor DNA Measurable Residual Disease After First-Line Therapy in Large B-Cell Lymphoma" by Dr. Steven Wang and colleagues in the Netherlands, referred to as the HOVON 902 study. By way of background, I wanted to talk about MRD in hematolymphoid malignancies. Nodal diseases have lacked a robust biomarker for end-of-treatment response. They have relied historically on PET scans interpreted using the semiquantitative Deauville 5-point scale, which has a high negative predictive value but a limited positive predictive value. The poor positive predictive value for survival results in extended follow-up with serial imaging for risk stratification with unnecessary and invasive biopsies. There have been recent revolutionary advancements in ctDNA MRD in B-cell lymphoma. The use of ctDNA in lymphoma began with CAPP-seq, which tracked single nucleotide variants that were tumor specific but was limited by excessive background sequencing noise with false negatives. To overcome this, Dr. Kurtz and colleagues developed the proprietary PhasED-seq assay. This tracks well-recognized phased mutations on the same DNA strand in cis configuration within hypermutated regions that are unique to B-cell lymphoma. Using this method, they pushed their limit of detection at 95%, the so-called LOD95, to 0.7 parts per million under optimal circumstances with 120 nanograms of input cell-free DNA from plasma. Based on the use of the PhasED-seq assay in trials of newly diagnosed large B-cell lymphoma with the use of investigational agents, the NCCN currently recommends consideration of ctDNA MRD assay with a detection limit of less than 1 part per million if biopsy is not feasible for a positive end-of-treatment PET. However, I believe this threshold needs reconsideration given it is based on an ideal assay LOD95 under optimal circumstances rather than sample-specific LOD95. Real-world validation of the role of end-of-treatment ctDNA and appropriate thresholds for sample-specific LOD95 were lacking until the publication of these two studies. The DIRECT and the HOVON 902 studies were multicenter, prospective trials using real-world cohorts of newly diagnosed large B-cell lymphoma treated with standard anthracycline immunochemotherapy, ie, R-CHOP chemotherapy. They validated end-of-treatment ctDNA MRD response measured on a phased-variant platform and found them to be strongly prognostic for relapse and survival. This was independent of PET imaging or baseline clinical prognostication like the International Prognostication Index, the IPI. They also demonstrated a threshold with an LOD95 of approximately 1 in 100,000 is necessary for clinical utility. Both trials recruited over a similar period between 2020 to 2023, with the DIRECT study conducted within the National Health Service in the United Kingdom and the HOVON 902 as a national study in the Netherlands. For survival analysis, only patients who reached the landmark event of end of treatment with an available ctDNA MRD sample without progressive disease or death at that time point were included. These studies evaluated similar-sized cohorts with 134 patients for HOVON 902 and 151 patients for the DIRECT study. As expected, their baseline demographics are reflective of a real-world population of newly diagnosed cases with large B-cell lymphoma. Although both used comparable statistical methodologies with time-to-event analysis, the primary outcomes vary, making headline comparisons quite challenging. The DIRECT study utilized the time to tumor progression, censoring death unrelated to disease. This was done to isolate the molecular impact of detectable ctDNA at the end of treatment. In contrast, the HOVON 902 study used progression-free survival, which counts all-cause mortality as an event. This naturally results in lower event-free rates for PFS compared to TTP in the DIRECT study. The trials differed in their choice of phased-variant platforms, with the DIRECT study developing an independent, fully open-source phased-variant ctDNA assay. This has been released on GitHub. In contrast, the HOVON 902 study utilized PhasED-seq by Foresight Diagnostics, which is currently the only proprietary and commercially available phased-variant assay for lymphoid malignancies. Interestingly, despite the differences in platforms and the primary end points, the results were remarkably consistent. The DIRECT study found a highly significant difference in the 2-year TTP rate of 96% in those with undetectable ctDNA MRD at the end of treatment compared to 45% in those with detectable ctDNA, with a hazard ratio of 15. Similarly, the HOVON 902 study found a significantly superior 3-year PFS of 85% in those with undetectable ctDNA compared to 17% with detectable ctDNA, with a hazard ratio of 10. Crucially, both studies found end-of-treatment ctDNA MRD significantly outperformed PET response assessment for long-term PFS. In fact, for the end point of PFS in both trials, the baseline IPI lost all statistical significance in both univariate and multivariable analysis when accounting for ctDNA MRD and PET status at the end of treatment. While both studies demonstrate the superiority of ctDNA MRD compared to PET in predicting survival, interestingly, the combination of both tests appeared to be complementary in identifying the highest-risk group. The HOVON 902 study identified 13 patients who were double positive, ie, they were positive with end-of-treatment PET and detectable ctDNA MRD. Every single one of these patients progressed over a 3-year period with a dismal overall survival of 17%. The DIRECT study mirrored these findings with the same double-positive group having a 2-year time to progression rate of 23%. Given consistency in identifying the poor outcome of this double-positive population in both studies, this is clearly a group that would benefit from trial-based approaches like consolidation or, alternatively, frequent surveillance for clinical relapse. On the other hand, the best-performing group was the double negative, ie, those who had achieved PET negative and ctDNA undetectable at the end of treatment. The double-negative group had a 2-year time to progression of 97% in the DIRECT study and a 3-year PFS of 88% in the HOVON 902 trial. This is quite impressive. Based on these findings, we can anticipate that ctDNA may complement rather than wholly replace PET at the end of treatment for response assessment. Perhaps the most critical finding from both studies challenged current NCCN-recommended ctDNA MRD sensitivity threshold of achieving less than one part per million. While phased-variant assays can theoretically detect this, this is under optimal conditions, specifically 120 nanograms of input cell-free DNA. In both trials, only 3% of samples could achieve this sensitivity, with the vast majority limited to a sample-specific LOD95 of approximately 1 in 100,000 informative reads. The primary constraint was simply limited plasma volume collected, a denominator problem of input cell-free DNA. For example, the HOVON 902 study had a median plasma volume of 5 mL, yielding 20 nanograms of input DNA. The DIRECT study elegantly demonstrated bridging the gap to attain the NCCN standard of LOD95 of less than 1 part per million is practically impossible. This would require greater input DNA, attained through a 20- to 30-milliliter collection of plasma rather than the standard 10 milliliters, and a massive 20- to 40-fold increase in sequencing depth. With the current real-world sensitivity of roughly 1 in 100,000 in both these studies, the negative predictive value is already nearly at 90%. There is going to be diminishing returns for further analytical sensitivity. This strongly suggests that the NCCN guidelines should be updated to prioritize achievable sample-specific LOD95 rather than assay-specific theoretical limits. Collectively, these studies validate the real-world utility of ctDNA MRD as an independent predictor of long-term outcomes following first-line therapy of large B-cell lymphoma. Finally, after two decades of the default R-CHOP for all, the field of aggressive large B-cell lymphoma is taking leaps and bounds by integrating ctDNA MRD with the current wave of bispecific and cellular therapies. I want to now leave you with my five key clinical takeaways from both these studies. ● Firstly, ctDNA MRD is a more potent independent predictor of outcome than end-of-treatment PET/CT and baseline IPI. ● Second, ctDNA MRD in first-line large B-cell lymphoma is already reshaping clinical trial space with therapeutic escalation and de-escalation strategies based on ctDNA kinetics during treatment, as well as identifying candidates with persistent ctDNA at the end of treatment for consolidation approaches. ● Thirdly, this technology is ready for prime time. Whether this is through Foresight's PhasED-seq assays or the open-source method released by the DIRECT group, academic centers can now operationalize this in routine clinical care. ● Fourth, biology clearly provides a ceiling. Current sensitivity goals of less than one part per million as recommended by the NCCN are limited by the actual amount of cell-free DNA we can extract from a patient's blood, not just the assay's technology. I believe these two studies will inform the NCCN's next revision to move away from theoretical assay limits to a more realistic sample-specific LOD95 of approximately 1 in 100,000. ● Finally, it appears that the end-of-treatment ctDNA MRD test may be complementary to PET/CT rather than a replacement. Clearly, the best outcomes are seen in double-negative patients, while double-positive results, ie, positive end-of-treatment PET and detectable ctDNA at the end of treatment, identify a group with an extremely high risk of early progression who may need early intervention. Thank you for listening to JCO Article Insights. Please come back for more interviews and article summaries, and be sure to leave us a rating and review so others can find our show. For more podcasts and episodes from ASCO, please visit asco.org/podcasts. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

In this episode of JCO Article Insights, host Dr. Melis Canturk summarizes the article, "Atezolizumab With Bevacizumab and Nonplatinum Chemotherapy for Recurrent Ovarian Cancer: Final Results From the Placebo-Controlled AGO-OVAR 2.29/ENGOT-ov34 Phase III Trial," by Harter et al. TRANSCRIPT Melis Canturk: Hello, and welcome to the JCO Article Insight. I'm your host, Melis Canturk, and today we will be discussing the JCO article, "Atezolizumab With Bevacizumab and Nonplatinum Chemotherapy for Recurrent Ovarian Cancer: Final Results From the Placebo-Controlled AGO-OVAR 2.29/ENGOT-ov34 Phase III Trial." While integrating immune checkpoint inhibitors has revolutionized the treatment of various gynecologic cancers, these agents have historically shown limited single agent activity in ovarian cancer. Despite a strong biological rationale for combining immunotherapy with chemotherapy and bevacizumab to enhance T-cell infiltration and normalized tumor vasculature, several phase III trials have failed to demonstrate a significant survival benefit in this setting. The AGO-OVAR 2.29/ENGOT-ov34 trial was launched to definitely evaluate whether adding the PD-L1 inhibitor atezolizumab to this combination could improve long-term outcomes for patients experiencing early relapse. This international, double-blind, randomized phase III trial enrolled 574 patients with epithelial ovarian, fallopian tube, or peritoneal cancer. Eligible participants had to be in their first or second relapse within 6 months of completing platinum therapy or in their third relapse regardless of the treatment-free interval. All patients received bevacizumab and an investigator selected chemotherapy backbone, either paclitaxel or doxorubicin. They were randomly assigned to receive either 840 mg of atezolizumab or a placebo every 2 weeks until disease progression or for a maximum of 2 years. The study population was an all-comer group, though patients were stratified by their PD-L1 status, previous bevacizumab use, and the number of prior treatment lines. The trial did not meet its primary end points, as the addition of atezolizumab failed to significantly improve overall survival or progression-free survival in the intention-to-treat population. For the primary end point of overall survival, the median was 14.2 months with atezolizumab compared to 13 months with the placebo. Progression-free survival was similarly insignificant, with a median of 6.4 months in the experimental arm versus 6.7 months in the control arm. Furthermore, the objective response rates were nearly identical between the groups, recorded at 40% for atezolizumab and 44% for the placebo. Interestingly, exploratory subgroup analyses revealed potential signals of benefit in specific populations, even though the overall trial was negative. Patients who had been previously treated with bevacizumab appeared to derive a greater benefit from the addition of atezolizumab than those who were bevacizumab-naïve. Additionally, outcomes seemed more favorable for patients receiving a paclitaxel chemotherapy backbone compared to those receiving doxorubicin. However, PD-L1 status did not appear to be a predictive marker for success, as hazard ratios for survival were similar regardless of whether the tumor was PD-L1 positive or negative. The safety profile of the triple combination was consistent with the known toxicities of the individual drugs. Grade 3 or higher adverse events occurred in 73% of the atezolizumab group and 70% of the placebo group. While the experimental arm saw higher incidences of immune-mediated events, such as thyroid-related issues, these were generally manageable. Serious adverse events were more frequent in the atezolizumab arm than in the placebo arm, but discontinuation rates due to toxicity were relatively low and comparable between the two groups. In conclusion, the AGO-OVAR 2.29 trial confirms that adding atezolizumab to bevacizumab and nonplatinum chemotherapy does not provide a statistically significant survival advantage for patients who receive nonplatinum chemotherapy for recurrent ovarian cancer. This study contributes to the growing body of evidence showing that immune checkpoint inhibitors have yet to find a definitive role in the standard treatment of recurrent ovarian cancer. Future research will likely focus on more sophisticated molecular stratification and the use of novel agents, such as bispecific antibodies, to overcome the challenging tumor microenvironment of low-grade serous ovarian cancer. Thank you for tuning into JCO Article Insights. Don't forget to subscribe and join us next time as we explore more groundbreaking research shaping the future of oncology. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

In this episode of JCO Article Insights, host Dr. Melis Canturk summarizes the article, "Phase 2 Trial of Ribociclib plus Letrozole in Women with Recurrent Low-Grade Serous Cancer of the Ovary, Fallopian Tube, or Peritoneum: A GOG Partners Trial," by Slomovitz et al. TRANSCRIPT Melis Canturk: Hello, and welcome to JCO Article Insights. I'm your host, Melis Canturk, and today we will be discussing the JCO article, "Phase 2 Trial of Ribociclib plus Letrozole in Women with Recurrent Low-Grade Serous Cancer of the Ovary, Fallopian Tube, or Peritoneum: A GOG Partners Trial." Building on the fact that more than 95% of low-grade serous carcinoma are estrogen receptor positive and often exhibit abnormalities in the CDK4/6 signaling pathway, researchers launched the GOG 3026 trial. This study investigated the effectiveness of pairing the CDK4/6 inhibitor ribociclib with letrozole, an aromatase inhibitor, adapting a therapeutic approach that has already transformed the treatment landscape for hormone receptor-positive metastatic breast cancer. Low-grade serous ovarian cancer is a rare malignancy characterized by its hormonally driven nature and relative resistance to traditional platinum-based chemotherapy. While it's associated with longer survival than high-grade serous carcinoma, recurrent disease presents a significant clinical challenge due to low response rates to standard treatments. The GOG 3026 trial was an open-label, single-arm, multicenter, phase 2 study that enrolled 51 women with measurable, recurrent, low-grade serous ovarian cancer. To ensure diagnostic accuracy, all cases underwent central pathology review. Participants were required to be at least 18 years old with an ECOG performance status of 0 to 2. While there was no limit on the number of prior therapies, patients were excluded if they had previously used CDK4/6 inhibitors. Prior endocrine therapy was permitted only if the patient had discontinued it at least 6 months before the study and had not experienced disease progression while on that specific therapy. Additionally, women with intact ovarian function were required to undergo ovarian suppression. The treatment regimen consisted of 600 mg of oral ribociclib daily for the first 21 days of a 28-day cycle, paired with a continuous daily dose of 2.5 mg of letrozole. The trial's primary endpoint was the investigator-assessed objective response rate. The results were clinically meaningful. The confirmed overall response rate was 30.6%, which included one complete response and 14 partial responses. The clinical benefit rate, which includes stable disease, reached 84%. These outcomes are particularly notable given the heavily pretreated study population, where nearly 40% of patients had received three or more prior lines of systemic therapy. Durability and survival data further underscored the potential of this combination. Among those who responded to treatment, the median duration of response was 21.2 months. The median progression-free survival was 14.5 months, and the median overall survival reached 44.5 months. In terms of safety, the profile was consistent with previous CDK4/6 inhibitor studies. The most common grade 3 and 4 adverse event was neutropenia, occurring in 47% of patients. However, it was asymptomatic and managed through dose modification. Only 4% of patients discontinued the trial due to adverse events, and no dose-limiting toxicities were observed. When comparing these results to other therapeutic benchmarks, the ribociclib-letrozole combination demonstrated more favorable outcomes than historical endocrine monotherapy. It yields response rates of only 13% to 14%. Furthermore, while MEK inhibitors like trametinib or the combination of avutometinib defactinib show similar response rates, the ribociclib-letrozole regimen displayed significantly better tolerability. Specifically, only 4% of patients in this trial discontinued the therapy due to adverse events, compared to much higher discontinuation rates seen with MEK inhibitor strategies. In conclusion, the GOG 3026 trial successfully establishes ribociclib plus letrozole as a clinically active and well-tolerated regimen for recurrent low-grade serous ovarian cancer. By achieving durable disease control in a heavily pretreated, relatively chemoresistant population, this combination may redefine the therapeutic paradigm for this rare cancer. These findings support the continued evaluation of CDK4/6 endocrine strategies as a preferred chemotherapy-sparing option that prioritizes both disease control and patients' quality of life. Thank you for tuning into JCO Article Insights. Don't forget to subscribe and join us next time as we explore more groundbreaking research shaping the future of oncology. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

JCO Editorial Fellow Peter Li and author Dr. Jahanzaib Khwaja discuss the ASH 2025 Simultaneous Publication article, "A New Validated Staging System for AL Amyloidosis With Stage lllC Defining Ultra-Poor Risk: AL International Staging System." TRANSCRIPT The disclosures for guests on this podcast can be found in the show notes. Dr. Peter Li: Welcome to this episode of JCO Article Insights. I am Dr. Peter Li, JCO's Editorial Fellow, and today, I am joined by Dr. Jahanzaib Khwaja on a new validated staging system on AL amyloidosis with stage lllC defining ultra-poor risk, AL International Staging System. This is a simultaneous publication that will be presented at this year's ASH Conference. At the time of this recording, our guest has disclosures that will be linked in the transcript. So, Dr. Khwaja, let's start off first: What would you say is the significance of your study? Dr. Jahanzaib Khwaja: Thank you very much. This is an important study in that, in the current treatment era, we have really improved outcomes of patients with systemic AL amyloidosis. Traditionally, the staging systems that have been employed, which are the Mayo 2012 and the European modification 2016, have been founded in eras where there were historic treatment protocols. So the significance of this new staging system is looking at outcomes of patients in the modern treatment era. That is patients who are treated with daratumumab-based treatments in the first line. And this is kind of the largest study which is externally validating a new prognostic model in the current treatment era with modern outcomes. Dr. Peter Li: Can you tell our listeners what is different about your new staging system? Dr. Jahanzaib Khwaja: The traditional staging systems, the Mayo 2012 and the European modification of 2016, looked at outcomes of patients with systemic AL amyloidosis with historic treatment protocols. And we know that they looked at outcomes according to an NT-proBNP and troponin, and in the Mayo 2012, they looked at it with the addition of the dFLC, which is the difference in the involved and uninvolved free light chain. Over the years, we have seen that outcomes have improved, and over decades, actually, outcomes are much better when we compare them to the previous decade. If we look at current treatment approaches, those traditional staging systems inadequately determine the poorest prognostic risk. So they are unable to tell us those who are going to perform poorly. Our current new validated staging system looks at the traditional NT-proBNP and troponin but uses the addition of the longitudinal strain. This is an echocardiographic parameter, and it is used widely in treatment centers who treat amyloidosis. This really identifies those ultra-high risk patients, and these are the patients who will perform poorly in current treatment protocols. And why is that important? Well, we need a robust staging system in the current treatment era which can stratify patients who will do well but also stratify those patients who do not do well. Because that is important for counseling patients, for risk stratification, for treatment approaches, and in the future, for designing clinical trials. Dr. Peter Li: And that is referring to the longitudinal strain greater than -9% and NT-proBNP greater than 8,500 and then the high-sensitivity troponins greater than 50, which will define the new staging system. Can you talk more about how you picked these cutoffs and also what that alludes to in terms of the outcomes that you have discovered in this age of daratumumab-based therapy? Dr. Jahanzaib Khwaja: Yeah, that is a really excellent question because we have aimed to build upon traditional staging systems. So clinicians have used these traditional models for many, many years, and they have robustly underpinned our stratification of patients and how we counsel patients. So we didn't want to change some of these well-established thresholds, but we wanted to test them in the current treatment era. So the NT-proBNP of 8,500 and the high-sensitivity troponin of 50 were the traditionally used thresholds. And they actually stand the test of time. But we found that longitudinal strain additionally and independently predicts outcome independent of these other biomarkers. It is independent actually as a continuous variable, so you can cut this at a number of different stratification points and find independence. But we wanted to determine and discriminate those with the poorest outcomes. So we validated a longitudinal strain threshold of greater than -9% by deriving this from a dataset of patients with the traditionally highest risk. Those are with European stage lllB. And looked at the optimal threshold with time-dependent ROC analysis. So we did this in our derivation cohort and then validated this externally in our external validation cohort amongst a number of centers in Europe, in the US, and in the UK. And it is important to note because longitudinal strain is an echocardiographic parameter, and traditionally the limitations are considered to be inter-vendor and inter-operator variability and intra-operator variability, and there are challenges with reproducibility of some of these measurements. So that is often cited as a limitation. But we found, when we have externally validated this across different centers using different platforms, actually the threshold of -9% is independently predictive of poorer outcomes independent of the traditional NT-proBNP and troponin thresholds, and it is robustly predictive of poorest outcomes. We know that those with stage lllC have a median overall survival of 4 to 7 months in the modern treatment era. And if we sub-stratify these by patients treated with daratumumab, outcomes have improved, but still, even if we look at daratumumab-treated patients, one-year overall survival is still only around 50 percent. So these are a poor risk group in the modern treatment era. Dr. Peter Li: Which kind of makes sense in a way because this kind of predicts whether they have amyloid-related cardiomyopathy. So I think this all tracks with our listeners. But given the poor outcomes even with daratumumab-based therapies, do you think this new staging system would change practice, if at all? Dr. Jahanzaib Khwaja: Yeah, I think that is a really good point because I think it comes to the question of why we use a staging system. What are its applications? I think one of the key things we think about in the clinic is how do we counsel patients when we first talk to them about their diagnosis. So there is a lot of information, but predominantly people want to know, what is my outlook going to look like? And as I say, in the bortezomib treatment era, 2010 to 2020, we used to say you have stage lllB, you have very poor outcomes, median survival maybe around six months. We have shown here that actually those with lllB have much better outcomes definitely over 12 months, up to 24 months in those with daratumumab-based therapies. So we need to counsel them in a different way. We then also need to say, "Well, who are the ultra-high risk?" So we said those with the longitudinal strain of greater than -9% with the traditional NT-proBNP and troponin cutoffs. And those patients will have poor outcomes. We need to talk about palliation. We need to talk about alternate treatment approaches. And then importantly for the community is about treatment and clinical trial design. So again, traditionally the traditional high-risk group lllB used to be considered an exclusion for all major trials. So these were excluded in the ANDROMEDA study, which led to the approval of daratumumab-based therapy, and multiple other trials. And we show here that actually patients with lllB should not be excluded from these studies because they do have good outcomes. And I think we make the important point that those with lllC, who do have poor outcomes, they need a different treatment approach, and we need to think about stratifying these patients differently. So perhaps the next modality of treatment will be the anti-fibril antibodies or a mode of treatment which can clear antibodies or clear the amyloid fibrils from the organs and reduce the organ toxicity early on. We know that those with lllC have poor outcomes particularly within the first year, and organ dysfunction really predominates here. So a different treatment approach is required, and we need to design trials specifically for these patients which look beyond anti-plasma cell clone therapy but also look at clearing the amyloid fibrils and improving organ function as this is predominantly the cause of death in these patients. Dr. Peter Li: That's an excellent point right there. Do you foresee any limitations to this new staging system, or can you comment on is there potentially a better way to refine this staging criteria in the future? Dr. Jahanzaib Khwaja: Yeah, I think that is a really excellent point to consider, that staging systems always need refining across treatment eras. So we have looked at the bortezomib era, and then we have validated this in the daratumumab-based era. We know that amongst different countries access to treatment varies. We know that there are a number of factors which determine your health-related outcomes. That's access to healthcare, speed of diagnosis, access to tertiary diagnostics, ability to biopsy, and then supportive care. And I think our staging system highlights the importance of organ dysfunction predominantly causing death early on. And I think that as treatments improve this should be refined. So the expectation I think is, as we have better anti-plasma cell directed therapies, and as we hopefully develop anti-fibril antibodies and anti-fibril clearance drugs, that we will need to revalidate new models to effectively prognosticate in this treatment era. And I also think that as we become a bit more sophisticated with our approaches, we know that this can be refined in the future looking at other prognostic factors with regards to healthcare outcomes. I would say one of the strengths, however, of this model is that it builds on the traditional model, and it's quite simple to use. You just have the NT-proBNP and the troponin, and then longitudinal strain, which is used quite frequently in amyloid centers, and an echocardiogram is used in essentially all patients for diagnosis. So I think it will certainly be quite practical. But certainly I think, as you say, as treatment approaches change over time, and as we have further options in the future, we will need to refine prognostication. Dr. Peter Li: For the listeners out there, let's say someone comes in our clinic and we diagnose them with stage lllC amyloidosis. Can you comment on what clinical trials are out there that potentially they can refer their patients to? You mentioned anti-fibril therapy, which I think would be the way of the future. Can you kind of comment what you know at this current stage and point listeners in the right direction? Dr. Jahanzaib Khwaja: This is the challenge in amyloidosis. We don't have specific trials that are looking at those with the highest risk. And at present, even the ISA International Guidelines talk about risk according to the old treatment approaches and discuss attenuating our current chemotherapy approaches. And I think that for clinicians out there who identify those at the highest risk, it is really important to have a multidisciplinary approach, to consider palliation and palliative services early, and really work with your fellow cardiologists and renal physicians and neurologists to enable the best supportive care you have in order to deliver this anti-plasma cell directed therapy. We know that actually you only need for most patients small amounts of doses of chemotherapy to get good clonal responses, and we have seen that even in the bortezomib era that actually they have good CR rates and more impressive CR rates with daratumumab. But because of the organ dysfunction, it can be really challenging to deliver these doses. And supportive care is going to be really important particularly for these challenging patients. The future will be designing clinical trials that are appropriate for these patients. At present, we currently don't have available options, but I think the more we gather this data, the more we work collaboratively as a community, we will be able to mobilize our resources and get the best outcomes for these patients. Dr. Peter Li: First build the field of dreams and then hopefully more therapies will arrive in the future. Thank you so much, Dr. Khwaja, for speaking about the JCO article, "A New Validated Staging System for AL Amyloidosis With Stage lllC Defining Ultra-Poor Risk: AL International Staging System," and for all your valuable input today. Dr. Jahanzaib Khwaja: Thank you very much. Dr. Peter Li: Make sure to check out the presentation at this year's ASH Conference taking place from December 6 to December 9. Thank you for listening to JCO Article Insights. Please come back for more interviews and article summaries and be sure to leave us a rating and review so others can find our show. For more podcasts and episodes from ASCO, please visit asco.org/podcast. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.