Long before Steve Jobs was the unstoppable force of nature atop Apple, shipping hit product after hit product, he was practically run out of the company after a series of bad product and management decisions. But as Geoffrey Cain argues in his new book, Steve Jobs in Exile: The Untold Story of NeXT and the Remaking of an American Visionary, the 12 years Jobs spent outside of Apple turned him into the leader the world came to know. Cain joins the show to talk about Jobs' experiences at NeXT and Pixar, how Jobs learned to be a successful leader, and the true power — and danger — of the reality distortion field. Further reading: Steve Jobs in Exile Subscribe to The Verge for unlimited access to theverge.com, subscriber-exclusive newsletters, and our ad-free podcast feed.We love hearing from you! Email your questions and thoughts to [email protected] or call us at 866-VERGE11. (Timestamps are approximate.) 00:01:30 Intro 00:01:56 90 Seconds on The Verge 00:03:46 Interview with Geoffrey Cain Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices