For more than a decade, the dominant Western narrative about Chinese lending to African countries has focused on the purported "debt trap." But the data tells a very different story. David McNair, executive director of Global Policy at ONE.org, joins Eric & Cobus to discuss a new report on African debt that challenges many popular assumptions. While African countries owe $708 billion in total external debt, only about 11.5% is owed to China. Meanwhile, private bondholders hold the largest share, often at significantly higher interest rates. More importantly, China has shifted from being a major lender to becoming a major debt collector, as loans from the Belt and Road that surged a decade ago now come due. 📌 Topics Covered in this Episode: The scale of Africa's $708 billion external debt and China's 11.5% share The $52 billion "Great Reversal" — from Chinese lending to debt collection Why private bondholders now dominate Africa's debt landscape Interest rate comparisons: Chinese loans vs. Eurobonds The rise of multilateral development banks and expanded lending headroom The failures and design flaws of the G20 Common Framework 7. Credit rating agencies, risk perception, and Africa's borrowing costs Show Notes: Development Finance Observatory: The Great Reversal ONE Data: African Debt Bloomberg: China's Retreat From Africa Lending Turns It Into Debt Collector by Matthew Hill Join the Discussion: X: @ChinaGSProject | @eric_olander | @standenesque Facebook: www.facebook.com/ChinaAfricaProject YouTube: www.youtube.com/@ChinaGlobalSouth Now on Bluesky! Follow CGSP at @chinagsproject.bsky.social Follow CGSP in French and Spanish: French: www.projetafriquechine.com | @AfrikChine Spanish: www.chinalasamericas.com | @ChinaAmericas Join us on Patreon! Become a CGSP Patreon member and get all sorts of cool stuff, including our Week in Review report, an invitation to join monthly Zoom calls with Eric & Cobus, and even an awesome new CGSP Podcast mug! www.patreon.com/chinaglobalsouth