The Creative Nonfiction Podcast with Brendan O'Meara

"I had a really interesting conversation with a publisher for my first book, and the publisher asked me, 'How are you going to get out of the story?' And I think that's the thing that people often go into it having a great idea of two thirds of a really good story, how it goes up through the climactic action of your narrative. But then there can be this like long trail off where people can't bring themselves to wrap the story up, or not put as much thought into exactly how the story ends," says Catherine Grace Katz, author of Shadow Before the Flame. It's Catherine Grace Katz (@catherinegracekatz on IG)! Who first appeared on the show back on Ep. 222 for her acclaimed book Daughters of Yalta and she's back in the saddle again for Shadow Before the Flame: The Hindenburg Disaster and the Prelude to War. It's published by Viking. Two things are ubiquitous about the Hindenburg: It blew up and the journalist painting the audio picture of the disaster said, "Oh, the humanity." Beyond that, what else is there? Turns out, um, quite a f------ lot, man. I didn't know there were survivors. I didn't know it was a passenger vessel. Shadow will sit right beside the great historical yarns spun by the likes of Laura Hillenbrand, Erik Larson, and Hampton Sides. I'm always amazed how writers make work of this nature suspenseful when you know the outcome. Like, you know the Hindenburg blows up. You know Trudy Ederle swims the English Channel. And yet, when it happens, you're rewarded more than you could have imagined. What a fun time we had. Can't believe it's been six years since she was on the show. Oct. 2, 2020. Wild. Who'd have thought that she's such a fiery New York Yankees fan? Hmmm … In this episode we talk about: * The origin story of this book * The post-book funk * Step 1 of writing this book proposal * Getting out of the story * World building * Capturing the little nuggets * How she's more rooted in feel * The murder wall * Cutting yourself off from the research * The tech of zeppelins * Why they couldn't use helium * The echoes of history * Not writing the present into the book * The one thing she's totally inflexible about * The biggest change between book one and book two * And her hottest of hot takes Pair this episode with Ep. 132 with Laura Hillenbrand, Ep. 473 with Hampton Sides, and Ep. 368 with Tyler Hooper.

"Writing is such a lonely job, and I feel bad for people who don't have a crew. I think you really have to have a crew. I had a college crew my first couple years at ESPN. There was a bunch of us who were young writers and very ambitious. That was a crew. And then we have our group now of people who are on various text threads, you need a band to always know where your head is at any given time, so they can help you tap into those things when you're doing your work," says Seth Wickersham, author of three books, including his anthology of his best ESPN work Be On That Hill. Today we welcome back Seth Wickersham, his third trip to the podcast. He has achieved anthology status. His best work over 26 years at ESPN is in 480 tidy pages titled Be On That Hill: Stories from the Summits of Sport, with a forward by his buddy and colleague and master in his own right, Wright Thompson. It's published by Hyperion Avenue. I should add right off the top that I should have in the coming week or two a Nieman Storyboard annotation of Seth's mammoth profile on Sean Payton. It's a 15,000-word feature that is a stunning piece of work. In any case, pay attention to this space for news on that. But, yes, Seth is the author It's Better to Be Feared and American Kings and let me be the one to tell you that he is one of the good ones, just a great person on top of being a tremendous writer and reporter. I think that comes across in how he speaks, his generosity of spirit and willingness to share his vast experience with you. I mean, take these blurbs for instance: from Jonthan Eig: "Wickersham stands with Plimpton and Halberstam among the finest sports chroniclers." And Peter King: "Wickersham's terrific prose and storytelling are buttressed by his tireless and insightful reporting." Damn. What a treat, what a ride you're in for. Seth's work can be found at espn.com [http://espn.com/] and you can visit his website sethwickersham.com [http://sethwickersham.com/] and follow him on IG @seth.wickersham. In this episode, we talk about: * Getting beyond access porn for his Payton profile * Having an idea of where you want to end a story * The messy creative process * Each time you're starting over * Shades of grayness * Not being dissuaded by lack of access * Lucky that people were invested in his success * Breaking through creative plateaus * The benefit of being a young writer * Everything in a story is a reflection of you * Needing a crew * How your writing voice can adapt * And the notes he has taped to his computer You might want to pair this episode with Pamela Colloff, Tony Rehagen and Justin Heckert.

"There are a lot of stories that I come across that almost work or that don't quite work. And early in my career, I think I'd try and chase stories or force them to fit or force them to be a story when they don't actually work as a story," says Matthew Wolfe, author of the book Fires in the Night and the Atavist story "The Bleeding Hearts." Today we welcome back Matthew Wolfe for the third time in about a year. Why, you ask? Well, his first appearance was Ep. 482 for his Atavist story "The Talented Mr. Bruseaux," then, just a few weeks ago he was on for Ep. 536 to talk about his first book Fires in the Night. And now he's got another Atavist story. Wild, right? This is the way. Matt's story is titled The Bleeding Hearts: An ex-cop pulled off the largest armed robbery in Austria's history, with his friend's mistress as his accomplice. But he wasn't trying to get rich. He wanted to be a real-life Robin Hood. Now, we'll be chatting with Jonah Ogles soon and I didn't bring this up with him, and I will down the road, but listen to the deck again. If you want to sell a pitch to the Atavist, can you sum it up in one sentence like that? I will talk to them about that in the next one and how that distillation might help your pitches out either for the Atavist or any other publication. Matthew has written for the Atavist on 3 separate occasions, and he's also the author of Fires in the Night about the Earth Liberation Front. His work has appeared in the New York Times Magazine, Harper's, The Atlantic, and National Geographic In this conversation, we talk about: * His love of The Baffler, Harper's, and the New Yorker * Where his path and ambitions lie * Balancing fun, meaning, and value in a story * The almost-working stories that don't * Stories that sit in the notebook for years * Periods of spring cleaning * Missing the sprawl of book writing * And when a reporter can add commentary to a story

"Sometimes you swing and a miss on a story, or you get scooped by someone, and I think there's a constant feeling of like you're only as good as your last story, as the last thing you published, and it's hard to shake that," says Joshua Robinson, co-author of The Playbook: The Hidden Forces Shaping Winners and Losers in the Modern NFL (Mariner Books). Joshua Robinson is here. Now, it was SUPPOSED to be a two-headed monster with Jonathan Clegg but SOMEBODY got pulled into an urgent news situation at the Wall Street Journal and had to conveniently skip thus putting ALL the pressure on Joshua Robinson to shoulder the burden that is a conversation with me. JR and JC are the co-authors of four books in nine years. Four books in nine years. Their latest is The Playbook: The Hidden Forces Shaping Winners and Losers in the Modern NFL. It's published by Mariner Books and edited by Matt Harper, who made The Front Runner as good as it is. Joshua heroically stepped in and did the work of two people. He's the sports editor for the Wall Street Journal and has covered Formula 1, European football, the World Cup, the Tour de France, etc. He and Jonathan are the authors of The Club, The Formula, and Messi vs. Ronaldo. The Club and The Formula are rated 4.6 on the place that shall not be named out of more than 1,800 ratings. That's amazing. In this episode, we talk about: * Translating super niche sports for a reader * The co-author shared Google Doc * Amusing themselves * The Big Pages Stage * How they only write two big drafts, what? * Marrying the big idea to characters * Drive the bus * Understanding time value of money in the NFL * And how you're only as good as last story This episode will pair well with Episode 199 with Keith Law, and Ep. 540 with Mitch Weiss and Holbrook Mohr. Instagram: @creativenonfictionpodcast Substack: welcometopitchclub.substack.com

"I think it's a great point with writing. You know early on you realize like putting pen to paper or starting to type early on was a massive achievement. There were huge gains, and now you're still grinding to figure out like 'I don't know how to end this chapter. How do I not know how to end a chapter? I've been writing for 20 years. What's wrong with me?' And you realize like this is the gig. This is part of the fun, though. It's also part of the grind, which is why if you asked a runner their their most fun runs, they're usually their hardest runs, and it's the same thing with any other passion," says Coach Chris Bennett, author of This is About Running. This is Not About Running. It's Coach Chris Bennett! He is the Nike Running Global Head Coach and now he's the author of This is About Running. This is Not About Running.: Lessons for Between and Beyond the Start and Finish Line. It's published by Dey St. If you're looking for workouts and training plans and pace charts and Zone 2 up the wazoo, this is NOT the book for you. But if you're looking for a 220-page metaphor for being a better writer, a better person, and yes, maybe even a better runner, then you're going to love this book. I read it twice. The chapters are, by and large, lean and range from confidence to doubt to hope and play and regrets. Maybe this podcast is about writing and not about writing. A little more about Coach Bennett, who is something of a real-life Ted Lasso. Prior to working with Nike, he was a high school history teacher who helped coach one of the most successful running programs in the U.S. He attended the Univ. of North Carolina where he captained the XC and Track teams. After college, he spent five years on the Olympic Development Nike Farm Team out of Palo Alto, CA. He used to live in Oregon, but moved back to his native New Jersey. In this episode, we cover a lot of ground including: * Why longform content is not dead * How he went from working in finance to Nike * How he cultivated his coaching philosophy * Confidence vs. Arrogance * Vulnerability * Reckoning with and the fear of success * The power of just focusing on yourself * Self-sabotage * And how running helped his writing I'd pair this episode Ep. 419 with Maggie Gigandet and her Atavist story about an ultrarunning couple and Ep. 525 with Mary Cain and her memoir of abuse at Nike called This is Not About Running.