Ditching Hourly

In 2017, Joel Miller came on Ditching Hourly episode 33 to talk about his recent switch to value pricing. Nine years later, Joel and his identical twin brother Alan still run The Sky Floor as a two-person shop. They do all the client work themselves, their average client has been with them for eight years, and they haven't hit a famine cycle in a long time, so they're not hungry for leads. Best of all, Joel has gone from working 80-hour weeks and making “a hilariously tiny fraction” of what he makes now to working normal hours and turning off his notifications at night and on weekends. 00:00 - Meet Joel Miller 00:46 - The Sky Floor Then and Now 02:00 - The Why Conversation in Practice 06:12 - Building Client Lifetime Value 08:50 - The Client Who Came Back 10:48 - Value-Based Monthly Retainers 12:26 - Scaling Without Headcount 16:03 - Indirect Word of Mouth 18:08 - What Keeps Clients for a Decade 25:25 - Spotting Hidden Opportunities 29:01 - Think Like a Business Owner 37:22 - Curiosity and the Entrepreneurial Spirit 41:53 - People Over Profits 44:51 - Never Stop Asking Why 48:36 - Where to Find Joel Joel Miller is the co-owner of The Sky Floor, a digital problem-solving agency he runs with his identical twin brother Alan. They started the company about 18 years ago as a web design shop in the Chicago area and now handle everything from websites and LMS systems to Google Ads and CRM replacements. Joel and Alan do all the client work themselves and have built long-term relationships averaging eight years per client. Joel appeared on Ditching Hourly episode 33 in 2017 to discuss his early experiments with value pricing. Try his free Capacity Tax tool to see whether a client is blocking your next growth move. ---- Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them. The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet. Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

Software entrepreneur, author, and investor Rob Walling joined me on Ditching Hourly to explain why faster software development does not remove the need to validate a software product idea before building it. We talked about the future of SaaS in the age of AI, the 2-20-200 validation framework, customer conversations, finding ideas, turning client work into a product, starting marketing early, choosing an ideal customer profile, competitive research, and the advantages of vertical vs orthogonal vs horizontal product positioning. 00:00 - Meet Rob Walling 01:28 - Idea to Traction 02:45 - Who Builds SaaS Now? 05:18 - SaaS in the Age of AI 09:23 - Validate Before You Build 16:29 - Better Customer Conversations 17:47 - Finding and Choosing Ideas 20:46 - Turning Client Work into SaaS 26:24 - Market from Day One 28:53 - Find and Refine Your ICP 32:09 - Competitive Research and Positioning 35:48 - The DNA of a Great SaaS Business 38:26 - Vertical, Horizontal, and Orthogonal SaaS Rob Walling is a software entrepreneur, author, and investor. He hosts Startups for the Rest of Us, a podcast he said has run for 16 years, and co-founded TinySeed, where he invests in SaaS bootstrappers. He started Drip in 2012 and sold it in 2016. Idea to Traction is his sixth book and revisits the early stages of software entrepreneurship. Learn more and pre-order the book at Idea to Traction. ---- Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them. The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet. Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

Experience designer and BRC Imagination Arts founder Bob Rogers joined me on Ditching Hourly to explain how to create experiences that change behavior instead of merely entertaining. His new book, Deep Story, is a practical guide to doing exactly that. We talked about defining the change before choosing tools, looking past requested deliverables, finding the emotional connection between a brand and its audience, starting with the heart, and turning information into action. 00:00 - Meet Bob Rogers and Deep Story 01:57 - Lessons from Disneyland's Magic Shop 03:57 - It's All About Them 07:36 - The Audience Is the Instrument 10:27 - Failing Into the Right Career 12:24 - Define the Change Before the Tools 16:51 - Look Past the Requested Deliverable 20:11 - Hire the Team, Not the Idea 22:41 - Use Phases and Set Enduring Goals 24:53 - Find the Shared Emotional Trigger 27:55 - A Brand Is What the Audience Says It Is 32:09 - SCAD's Kitchen Table Story 35:35 - Start with the Heart, Then Focus 38:32 - Information Is Not Transformation 42:35 - Books and Where to Find Bob Bob Rogers is the founder of BRC Imagination Arts, where he has spent decades creating visitor experiences for corporations and museums. He began his career demonstrating magic at Disneyland and later developed concepts for films at Walt Disney Imagineering. His new book, Deep Story, presents a practical approach to building experiences that make an emotional connection and prompt action. Learn more at BRC Imagination Arts. ---- Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them. The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet. Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

NetSuite data migration consultant Paul Giese joined me on Ditching Hourly to share how triple specialization helped him build a highly referable, fixed-price consulting business. Paul explains how his accounting background, NetSuite expertise, and data-migration focus combine into a defensible niche, plus how specialization supports referrals, delegation, and value-based fixed fees. 00:00 - Introduction 00:20 - Paul's Background and Business 01:01 - From Accounting to Entrepreneurship 03:21 - Finding the NetSuite Migration Niche 06:02 - The Benefits of Specialization 12:07 - Becoming Easy to Refer 16:00 - The Three-Part Expertise Moat 20:48 - The Opportunity for Specialized Firms 24:10 - Moving from Hourly to Fixed Fees 29:08 - The Freedom of Fixed Pricing 31:08 - Building Trust and Reducing Risk 36:08 - Contractors, Delegation, and Quality 40:13 - Pricing by Value Instead of Volume 42:56 - Testing the Ceiling on Price 47:36 - Lessons and Closing Thoughts Guest Bio Paul Giese is the founder of Optimal Data Consulting, a firm specializing in data migration services for companies implementing NetSuite. With an accounting background from Baylor University and experience in Big Four public accounting, Paul has helped more than 100 clients migrate their data. Connect with Paul on LinkedIn or on his website. ---- Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them. The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet. Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs

Growth consultant and author of The Damn Rules, Nick Richtsmeier joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about why internet-based inbound marketing systems have stopped working, aren't coming back, and what might work instead. 00:27 Nick's Background and Work 01:10 Why the Internet Is Toast 03:09 What Distribution Means Now 04:36 Inbound as Attention Arbitrage 07:56 The Attention Economy Is a Casino 13:37 Five Major Disruptions 22:36 Trust and Attachment as Scarcity 25:34 Friction as a Load-Bearing System 30:10 Restoring Trust Through Human Contact 35:01 Selling When People Are Scrolling 39:19 Notice Meetings and Relationship Networks 41:47 Why Friction Polishes Ideas 50:37 The Damn Rules and Closing Thoughts Nick's bio: Nick Richtsmeier is the creator of Trust-Made Growth® and the author of The Damn Rules: How Vulnerability, Inefficiency, and Love Liberate Leaders from the Trustbroken Economy, a strategist and cultural navigator helping founder-led, relationship-driven firms build durable businesses in the age of AI extraction and from the wreckage of the trustbroken economy. Nick's links: Personal » https://nickrichtsmeier.com Book » https://nickrichtsmeier.com Newsletter » https://damnrulesbook.com LinkedIn » https://linkedin.com/in/nickrichtsmeier Podcast » “Damns Given with Nick Richtsmeier” available on all major platforms ---- Sales Conversations That Don’t Feel Sleazy — live Oct 20 at noon ET Learn how to structure sales conversations so the buyer tells you what the outcome is worth without feeling sleazy or trying to manipulate them. The live 90-minute Zoom workshop is $450 and includes the recording, transcript, summary notes, and a practical worksheet. Learn more and register » https://jonathanstark.com/sgs