Management Blueprint | Steve Preda

https://youtu.be/0U9tQ5D2MCk Parry Headrick, Founder of Crackle PR, is helping B2B technology companies offer LLM-digestible messages through earned media, human-centered writing, and strategic communication. Driven by the belief that where people start does not determine where they finish, Parry has built an empathetic, senior-led agency that works exclusively with good companies and empowers its people to share their expertise openly. In this conversation, Parry introduces The LinkedIn Cheat-code Framework: Post every day, Tap into news stories, Weave in audience impact, and No-CTA. He explains how consistently sharing valuable ideas and expecting nothing in return helped him build an audience, generate most of his leads through LinkedIn, and shorten the sales cycle from three months to one week. Parry also discusses how LinkedIn thought leadership creates a virtuous cycle of earned media and LLM citations, why websites and PR content must be readable by both humans and machines, and how a senior-led agency can scale without sacrificing quality. He also shares why human writers will become more valuable as AI-generated content creates a growing sea of sameness. — Offer LLM-Digestible Messages with Parry Headrick Good day, dear listeners. Steve Preda here with the Management Blueprint Podcast, and my guest today is Parry Headrick, the Founder of Crackle PR, a B2B tech public relations agency that works with good companies only. Crackle PR is a senior-led B2B tech PR agency built for the LLM era, where earned media is no longer just a brand builder, it is the vital infrastructure that feeds foundation models. Parry, welcome to the show. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Well, it’s great to have you, and you are all about LLMs and how to get through the AI filters, which is relevant for all of us. But before we jump in, I’d like to ask you my $64,000 question. What is your personal Why, and how are you manifesting it in Crackle PR? Yeah, that’s a good question. And I haven’t really been asked that question in that way before, but if I had to nail the answer, it would be this. So I started out with humble beginnings. My family didn’t have any money really to speak of. We wore secondhand clothes. It was the typical scratching and clawing our way up story. And I had a difficult childhood with divorces and everything, and I ended up getting kicked out of high school. Seventh grade was the last grade I actually completed. I was kicked out of two different schools three different times. And the last time I was dismissed, I was told by the principal that I would have a long life working at McDonald’s. It was a real dagger that he put in my heart as he showed me the door. And I just thought at that point that didn’t seem like something that someone in power should say to someone who had none. And that kind of informed everything that I’ve done since, including being a reporter where I covered stories trying to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted, all the way into how I’ve tried to create an agency that is predicated on doing it with empathy. And we have an ironclad no-assh*les policy. I hope you don’t mind the swear there. That means internally and externally. We won’t work for jerks, and we won’t tolerate brilliant jerks that work with us because that tends to be very cancerous for an organization. So that’s the Why, is where you start doesn't really dictate where you finish, and I'm determined to prove that that's the case. Share on X Yeah. I love it. And that’s one of the benefits of being in business for yourself. You can select your own clients. You don’t have to accept the ones that you don’t like. But few people actually put a stake in the ground and actually declare it, right? It’s harder to do it than to just make some compromises. Yeah. So tell me about Crackle PR. I really like the name of Crackle PR. I kind of sense what it might mean, but why don’t you explain how you came up with this? Well, good question. I like these layups you’re giving me here. So I started Crackle during the pandemic, actually, when most of us were staring at the walls of our home thinking, “What the heck is going on?” There were riots in the streets. People couldn’t go anywhere, and it was really this sort of just dark malaise that covered the world. And it was that time that I thought, “What if I were to start a PR agency that is the antithesis of the large ones that I had built?” So prior to Crackle, I had built a couple of the largest privately held tech PR agencies in North America. The models at these large agencies, as you probably know, are very hierarchical, where you trot out the Parrys of the world and the VPs, and then the model demands that you have most of the work done by juniors because that’s how you make the money. And I thought, what if we just, instead of trying to get big at all costs, what if we instead had a very prescriptive model where, instead of paying for offices in Manhattan and San Francisco, what if we just put that money into our talent and had a senior team that did the work, and we didn’t have a whole bunch of overhead? Wouldn’t that be cool? And what if we also, as I just mentioned, don’t work with any jerks, and we work just with companies that are good people doing good stuff? And that was the true north for the company to start. And so we’ve been very fortunate in the intervening years. We now have 15 full-time employees, another five consultants. We’re hiring prescriptively and slowly. We don’t want to grow for the sake of growth. And we have clients all the way from seed rounds of funding to publicly traded companies. We really run the gamut. It's a B2B tech PR shop primarily. Share on X But I always thought that the bad people need more PR than the good people. Well, they may, but we’re not here to put lipstick on pigs. I had somebody that told me in my life one time that you don’t get into the mud with the pigs because the pig will love it, but you’ll both get dirty. And that’s not a game I’m looking to play. So I didn’t actually answer the question about Crackle itself. So the idea was that during that dark, dark time—COVID, riots, craziness everywhere. We wanted to represent a bit of goodness in the world. So I just pictured the world being this heap of ashes Share on X and under those ashes was a little spark, a little crackle of life, a little ember of goodness that was going to come out of all this. And that was really the impetus for the name, and it’s really guided the true north of the company. Love it. That’s really fun. And your hat looks good, too. You see the little spark, the little crackle right there? I see it. Yeah. It’s like a Christmas cracker. So, okay, this podcast is called Management Blueprint because we are looking for, or I’m looking for, frameworks that people came up with, that they stumbled upon, which other listeners might apply to their business. So what’s a framework that you could share with us which can be explained in three to five steps that helps you get an insight or communicate better or organize better, something that helps you be more effective? Yeah. So this may not be a big surprise. Some of your listeners may follow me on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is my cheat code. When I first started this business, I went to LinkedIn with my full self. Share on X Determined to tell everyone the good, the bad, the ugly about the industry that I’m in, which is public relations. And a surprising thing happened. At the time, there weren’t a lot of people kind of being truth tellers in their respective industries. But I stuck to that same framework, speaking truth to power, which goes back to my Why. An interesting thing happened, which is I tended to get a bunch of followers really quickly, and they would DM me saying, “Finally, someone’s just saying it like it really is in the industry. Finally, someone is lifting back the curtain. Finally, finally, finally.” And so I just doubled down on that approach. And so fast-forward to today, I have 82,000 followers on LinkedIn. The majority of my business comes in through DMs on LinkedIn from them having read my posts, my thoughts. And by the time they actually come to me, they already have a good sense for my ethos, how I think, how I operate, that I work with good companies only. They know me. So the vetting process is 75% of the way done by the time they ever reach out. So that’s the cheat code. I’ve shortened the sales cycle from my old world being three months down to a week. If we have a phone call, we put together a quick proposal, and then it’s done because they are already looking to hire me when they reach out. So that’s the framework, that’s the cheat code, that’s the hack, and it’s applicable to just about any industry. Okay. So I love it. So let’s break it down. So how do you create this effect where people pick up the phone or DM you and within a week sign you up? What is the process? Yeah. So the process is just I post literally every day of my life. Maybe weekends I’ll take a break, it depends. But every work weekday I am posting. It is not a nice-to-have, it is a mission-critical function of Crackle PR. I would say up until recently, about 90% of my leads came in through my commentary and writing and posting on LinkedIn. And it's really me just sharing everything that I know, including commenting on the news of the day tapping into the zeitgeist about issues that are happening from a public relations standpoint, and sharing real-time thought leadership across my… Share on X And so it’s not a simple process of, like, I do A and then B. It’s really more like, what’s happening today? What’s a story that I should tell and comment on today? And then how is that going to positively impact my key audiences? I’m always doing it with the intent to simply share value and expect nothing in return. I almost never ask for anything. Occasionally I’ll say, “Hey, does anybody know a good account manager?” But I’m not out there selling my wares on LinkedIn. I’m very simply ungating my brain and letting everyone have access to it, and the right people find me at the right time. Love it. Love it. So the four steps I heard were: post every day, tap into the zeitgeist or the story of the day, how to impact your key audience, so essentially the story and how can you turn it into something that helps people, and no CTA at the end. That’s right. Yeah. Love it. That’s a great framework. Yeah. It’s great. And you know what’s interesting is that it’s multifaceted in the sense I’ve told you already that the majority of my business comes from LinkedIn, okay? Because I share what I know. It’s thought leadership in real time, and it’s a captive audience. The byproduct of that is interesting, which is that I am constantly written about in the news by, like, The Guardian, the Wall Street Journal, you name the publication. Because they’re finding me on that platform and reading what I have to say and reaching out for comment to expand on those ideas. So it's got this virtuous cycle where, as a PR guy myself, it's interesting that I'm putting thoughts out into the world and I'm attracting earned media Share on X which is the coveted thing that all of the LLMs I talk about rest on, because 82% or something of citations across LLMs come from earned media. So it’s a really virtuous cycle that I’ve stumbled upon and that I’m trying to refine and hone over time. So basically, you’re drinking your own Kool-Aid. Yeah. Sometimes I wonder, a lot of marketing agencies, they sell marketing, but they are not able to market themselves well. “The cobbler’s children have no shoes” is the common expression. Exactly. But you are the cobbler’s child who found a pair of shoes, and this is actually doing what you’re preaching others should do. So that’s kind of very, very counterintuitively intuitive. Well, just to add on that quickly. So public relations, we’re about promoting and publicity and all of that. The bizarre irony is that the vast majority of people who are great at writing, great at promoting, like me, don’t post on LinkedIn. They’re not sharing their thoughts out there. They’re not doing what they were born to do, which is a really fascinating thing. And I think part of it is where they work and they’re afraid they’ll say the wrong thing or maybe lose a client or whatever it may be. But my idea is, and I tell my team this, my staff this, is like, “I want you out there sharing how smart you are every single day. I’m under no illusions that you’ll be with me until the end of your life, okay? But while you’re with me, I want you sharing what you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly about our industry, because that’ll help you gain a brand, and it’ll help me attract an audience.” It’s a win-win. So I wish more people had that mindset where they weren’t stingy about who has a voice but rather empowered everyone across the organization to use that voice for the better of the organization and for themselves. Yeah, but it takes discipline to write every day. It’s not easy. It’s not easy at all. It’s easier for others than some. I mean, I was a journalist. I came up writing, so for me, it’s just a natural thing, and most PR people are writers. So you’d think it would be pretty easy for us because we write every day for our clients, but I would say probably 85-plus percent of the people in my profession are either afraid or don’t have time or just don’t want to do it, and I just think it’s a shame. They’re leaving a lot of at-bats on the field. No, absolutely. Absolutely. So you kind of half answered my question that I’m going to ask, but I’m going to ask it anyway because I’m curious about other aspects to it. So what drives growth in your business? Yeah. So if you asked me this six months ago, I would’ve said primarily it’s LinkedIn and referrals. Today, I’m happy to report that it’s referrals and LinkedIn, and also my optimized website, my website that’s optimized for the LLM era. Again, another example of eating my own dog food here, where I’m making my website readable both to humans and the machines that cite, and I’m preemptively going after the earned media pieces that will then fuel citations for my company and for my website. So again, I’m trying to create this flywheel here, and I think I’ve been pretty successful so far. I would argue probably among the most successful in PR agencies, where I’m feeding the beast constantly and prescriptively doing so, so that my website, my LinkedIn work, my earned media hits all effectively get scraped and cited by these LLMs, which is the future of search, obviously. Yeah. I still use Google occasionally, but even Google is just the AI explanation up top. You’re not even going down, scrolling anymore. You’re just getting the quick explanations. And so everything is headed that way, and I think that being a first mover on that front is particularly important. And I think any marketer that is not looking at the LLM landscape as the next great frontier is missing the boat. Oh, yeah. I love it. So how do these LLMs work? Do you have an insight, a deeper insight as to how to create these quotes or how to show up? Is it just writing every day, making original posts, or is there more to it? There’s a bunch of things, and this could be a topic for a podcast in and of itself, but I’ll just talk in basic terms to not have your audience’s eyes glaze over. It used to be that, for example, we would write in PR a press release that was very narrative in structure. X company today announced, and the CEO is proud, and all of that kind of stuff. And then that was used to then go pitch the media. Well, the LLMs are scraping these press releases now, and what you want to try and do is make it as easy as possible for them to lift the essence of that information Share on X in an attributable way to the author or the company that is in question here. So it’s about making it digestible and ingestible for the LLMs, and there’s a variety of techniques and tricks that you can do this with, and your audience can do a quick search and find those tricks. But there’s a whole playbook now about how to do that, and it’s not even just things like press releases, but it’s how you structure your bylined articles that you place, and it’s how you frame your conversations with reporters so that you’re saying things in such a way that the LLMs will ingest these and then in turn cite these for respective audiences. And by the way, whether it’s Gemini, ChatGPT, all these different models, they all look for different things. So some of them rely heavily on places like Reddit. Some of them rely heavily on places like YouTube. Some of them ingest things more frequently than others. So there’s a whole cornucopia of things that has to be done if you’re really going to dial it in because no two LLMs are alike, and they value different things, and they weight them more heavily. So it really is a science, more so than an art form, which is what I think PR is largely known to be, more of an art form. Share on X Yeah. Yeah. So at the beginning of this conversation, you shared that you have been part of big PR companies, and you wanted to do it differently. You wanted to have a senior people-heavy agency where, I guess, people get straight from the horse’s mouth what they want to have. So is this model scalable? And if so, how? Yeah, it is scalable. And I think there’s a distinction. So when I say senior talent, I’m not talking about only VPs. So we have account directors, we have account managers, we have senior account executives. So they’re a little further down on the scale. But what we don’t have is interns and account coordinators and the very earliest players. So everybody has at least four to five years of experience on the team. And so in that sense, it is scalable, provided that the minimum retainers are sufficient. So we have a $12,000 minimum monthly retainer, and that’s very intentional because we know what we need to do to be able to be profitable and to continue to hire and scale, to your point. So yeah, it is scalable, but it takes work, and it took a lot of hand-wringing and mistakes along the way to get to a point where we’re able to do it now. But it’s kind of beautiful in the sense that I don’t want to be a huge 250-person agency. I think I’m comfortable in the 20- to 50-employee range, and then I’ll probably, in a few years, ride off into the sunset, having made a very good earning or good living, rather and I’m not trying to become a billionaire here. So who are your ideal customers that you’ll hire? Yeah. Typically, it’s, first of all, good companies doing good things. We don’t want to work with tobacco companies or people that are negatively contributing to the world. And it’s typically B2B technology companies in A round, B round, C round, D round of funding, or even publicly traded companies. It’s a pretty wide swath, but the common thread is B2B tech is the sweet spot. And again, we’re looking for largely challenger brands. There are some that are the leaders that we have, but I think it's much more interesting to help build a brand than it is to maintain one. So those are the kinds of clients we tend to look for. Share on X So do you do the same thing for them that you do for yourself, for your agency, or is it a different approach? Yeah. No, I mean, we focus a heck of a lot more on earned media for our clients because that still is the lifeblood of a traditional PR program. But the earned media, as we just talked about, inform the LLMs that are now citing them in their answers. So we got thrown kind of a bouquet in PR. Everybody’s talking about AI being difficult and losing jobs, and a lot of that is true. The PR industry got kind of fortunate in the sense that earned media is more important than it’s ever been because LLMs rely on them to cite their sources. And it’s an unfortunate problem because at the same time PR is more important than ever, reporters in the media landscape are dwindling faster than ever. Share on X There are reporters getting laid off everywhere. There’s all kinds of restructuring. There’s reporters bouncing around, going to Substack, trying to eke out a living. And I just wish there was a way to create more parity where 10 years ago, 15 years ago, the media landscape was really strong, and now it’s really struggling. Now, this isn’t to say there aren’t opportunities out there to pitch the media because there’s more people, and it’s just more diffuse. So you have all these different audiences that you didn’t have before, like Beehiiv and Substack and podcasts and all of these disparate groups, whereas it used to just be, “Here’s my 25 newspapers and magazines we’re going after,” and that was the entirety of it. So now it requires a lot more work, a lot more research to find out where your audiences are and who they’re reading or what they’re watching or which podcast that they’re looking at. So it requires PR people to be more resourceful, to spend a lot more time researching who they're going after and making sure they're very precise in their outreach Share on X versus the old days when it was this spray-and-pray approach, knowing that some amount of people will cover it and so therefore it’s worth it. Today, it’s about you have to make sure you’re not wasting anyone’s time and making sure that you’ve done your homework. Yeah, it’s becoming a very fragmented business. So what is your expectation of the future as these big media outlets are disintegrating, consolidating, or even disappearing? Is it just going to be more atomized, or is this a cyclical thing where you have the fragmentation, and then it’s going to consolidate again? Yeah. The answer is I’m not sure. What I would like to happen is what some—I know some countries actually fund the free and fair media to make sure that it’s a healthy ecosystem where there are checks and balances. I am not under the illusion that that’s going to happen in this country anytime soon, although I wish it would, because it’s really for the betterment of everyone. But I think what will happen in the short term is more of what’s happening now, which is the atomization of all these folks going to different platforms to try to eke out a living on their own. They’re taking agency of their lives. But I would like to think against that backdrop there’ll be a movement, because businesses are going to require it at some point, that there’s third-party validation from trusted sources. I would like there to be a consortium of some sort built where companies of a certain size are all contributing to the same pool to try to get this healthy landscape that we need. I don’t know the answers. I haven’t solved it. If I did, I’d be a very, very wealthy man. But I know that the government in some countries are actively funding a free and fair press, and I really wish we would do that here. So let me switch gears here and ask you a very different question. Okay. If you had a magic wand and you could fix one thing in your company in the next 12 months, what would that be? I think it would be that I could adequately teach everyone in the organization how best to utilize tools like Claude Code and others to automate much of the grunt work that takes time away from strategy. So we are really strategic. We do a lot of brainstorming. We are great at our thinking and our writing and pitching and all of that. Share on X But there’s a whole heck of a lot of stuff that’s related to reporting and research and stuff that just takes a whole lot of time. So I wish everybody could just instantly understand how best to use these tools to eliminate the drudgery from our jobs, to focus instead on the strategy. Why do you think it’s not happening? There’s a learning curve, and frankly, there is an expense. These tokens are not inexpensive, so you have to pay a bunch of money for these things. You have to put the time in. You have to have an appetite to learn it, and then you have to have the aptitude to learn it. Now, I’ve gotten pretty, pretty good at this stuff. I’m self-taught. I built my own website using these tools. I mean, I’m pretty deep myself. But at the end of the day, most of my employees are working their butts off on their client stuff, and this stuff I’m talking about is kind of extracurricular and difficult to do. And so what I’m trying to do. We just talked about this last week is putting aside office hours for everyone to figure out these big, hairy projects they want to get better at and learn and devote time to it on my dime. Share on X I’m happy to pay for it, for them to put the work in, get the skills that they need to be able to make shorter work of the stuff that just takes too long and isn’t, frankly, satisfying professionally. Yeah. I mean, it is uncomfortable when people have to learn something that is completely different from the skills that they have been making their money with, right? Yeah. Well, and I’ll take it a step further. So I’ve been quoted in a couple of, like The Guardian recently, about some of these commencement speeches where you have one of the heads of Google and all these bigwigs at college commencement speeches talking about AI and ushering in this new revolution, and they’re getting booed. They’re getting booed while they’re speaking because the students in these halls recognize that there’s an existential threat right now in the form of AI. They already have enough challenges relative to affordability and buying a home and all these different things, and now you’re telling them that AI is going to take a huge chunk of their jobs before they even get out of the gate. And against that backdrop, they’re not being equipped in college to be able to come out into the real world with the coding skill, the Claude Code skills I’m talking about now. So they’re coming out handcuffed and kneecapped out of the gate into this world that they’ve been foisted upon. And I think that’s a big challenge. And so bringing it back to my office, or anybody who’s in the situation we are, everybody’s kind of grudgingly learning how to do this stuff or else. Or else you’ll fall behind, or else you won’t have a job, or else someone will take your job. And I think that’s a very real angsty feeling that a lot of people have. And so part of me feels guilty for wanting to tell my people, “Look, we’ve got to get skilled up on these things,” because I know a lot of people would rather it just didn’t exist. But pretending something doesn’t exist isn’t the way forward. You've got to look it square in the face, realize what it is, and then do your level best to try to maximize what you can with it. And that's where we're at. Share on X Do you see a lot of disruption happening in PR, or are agencies just waking up to this issue? Yeah, I see a lot of disruption, and I think it’s for the worse. I think right now what we’re seeing is there are a whole lot of agencies that are taking the AI slop, spray-and-pray approach. Like, they are literally using these AI machines to pitch all these reporters who, by the way, can tell when they’re getting pitched with AI, and then they’re immediately getting blacklisted because they don’t want to deal with the machine. So yes, there’s disruption, but I think it’s noise instead of a positive disruption. I think there’s not much to be gained from the AI tools that way. I will say it’s disrupted the way some of the largest agencies have operated because for years they worked on a time-and-materials model. That’s a little difficult to justify now when you have machines doing in seconds what used to take weeks or sometimes months from a research standpoint. So that’s disrupted the whole agency model. And I would argue that’s for the better because the time-and-materials model, I think, was an excuse for busy work. Yeah. That is true. What do you suggest if someone is looking for a PR agency? What is the criteria that they should apply to evaluate an agency? What kind of agency should they be choosing? Yeah. So I mean, I think there’s a couple things I would say. One is, make sure that you understand who’s actually doing the work on your team. There’s a classic bait-and-switch problem in PR. I already talked about this, where it’s like you talk to me during the call, and then you have an intern doing your work, and that obviously isn’t very equitable. So there’s that. I think having proficiency in the new world relative to large language models and share of citation. I think that stuff is really important now because directionally that’s where we’re headed. And then for me, the one thing that is so true it was true the day I started my agency, and it’ll always be true is hire strong writers, real human writers. Because the AI slop is nauseating out there. Something like 60% of posts on LinkedIn are now written by AI, as reported by LinkedIn. And people are just getting really sick of this sea of sameness because AI really is just the average of everything that’s come before it, everything that’s been written before it. It’s an average of that. And that’s a path to mediocrity really, really quickly. So strong writers, senior leaders who are doing the work, I think, are key, and then obviously prowess around the idea of how to get your products and services cited across the LLMs that are becoming increasingly important every day. Love it. Love it. That’s very encouraging because what I see is that these platforms, like Claude, they offer to codify your writing voice and write in your voice. What do you think of these approaches? Yeah. I think probably for some lines of work it might make sense. For our world, it just does not. If you’re a writer and you’ve valued the English language, you can very quickly determine what’s AI and what is not. And that’s the case with all of the reporters that are covering our clients every day. So they know what’s AI. People in our industry know what AI is, and you can just tell when someone is responding with AI. You’re getting a note in the mail that’s written by AI. You’re getting an email back from AI. It’s just nauseating, and it’s just disheartening. And I think that there is going to increasingly be a premium placed on human writers and human artists and people who are doing human work that has real value and real thought versus the distillation of everything that’s come before it, which is what AI is. So if people would like to learn more about you or read your posts or connect with your team, where should they go? So cracklepr.com is the website. I am Parry Headrick on LinkedIn. You can find me there. And I’ve gotten off of most of the other social platforms because I’ve had some issues with the Facebooks of the world, and so I canceled those a long time ago. So Bluesky would be another one. Parry Headrick on Bluesky. Okay. Well, if you liked what you heard and you want real writers who will be discovered by LLMs, and you want to get your company featured on ChatGPT and Claude and the other platforms, then check out Parry Headrick, Founder of Crackle PR. Start reading his posts, which I will be. I think I already am. And if you enjoyed this conversation, then stay tuned because a couple of times a week I’ll bring an exciting entrepreneur who has changed the world and will share their unique frameworks with you. So thanks for coming, Parry, and thanks for listening. It’s been my pleasure. Thanks. Important Links: Parry’s LinkedIn Parry’s website

https://youtu.be/1xVHNhjP1AY Denis O’Shea, Founder of Mobile Mentor, helps organizations pursue a clear goal to simplify your tech environment while strengthening security and empowering employees to remain productive. Driven by the joy of learning and intellectual adventure, Denis left a 15-year career at Nokia to build a company that learns about emerging technologies, translates them into business outcomes, and mentors customers through change. In this conversation, Denis introduces The Tech Stack Streamlining Framework: Understand Current Tech Stack, Assess Capacity for Change, Benchmark to Peers, Build the Roadmap, and Deliver Simplified Tech Stack. He explains how immersing his team in a customer’s environment, asking thoughtful questions, and benchmarking the organization against its peers can reveal a clear path toward a simpler technology stack. Denis also discusses Mobile Mentor’s fast-growing mentoring service, how its Microsoft partnership transformed the business, the challenge of finding technology professionals who are natural mentors, and why people must remain responsible for the quality and accuracy of everything they produce with AI. — Simplify Your Tech Environment with Denis O’Shea Good day, dear listeners. Steve Preda here, Management Blueprint Podcast. And today my guest is Denis O’Shea, the Founder of Mobile Mentor, a technology service provider helping thousands of clients find and maintain the right balance, securing devices, protecting data, and empowering people to be productive. Mobile Mentor is also a five-time Microsoft award winner. So Denis, welcome back to the show. Thank you, Steve. Thank you for having me back. And I have to say, you look fantastic. You’re aging gracefully, and I hope I’m doing the same. Well, unfortunately, my barber is on vacation, so I couldn’t visit him last week. But it’s great to have you back on the show, and we couldn’t agree whether it was two or four years ago that you were here. Anyhow, it’s great to have you back, and I’ve got some questions for you that I’m curious about. And first and foremost, the question is, what is your personal Why, and how are you manifesting it in your Mobile Mentor business? My personal Why is probably learning. And I think the reason I went into business in the first place was to learn and grow as an individual. It certainly wasn’t money. I expect money as an outcome from the process, but I didn’t go into it for money. It was really to learn, and the trigger for me was I did an executive education program in Switzerland. I was living there for a few years, and that blew my mind. That just exploded my mind when I started learning all about mergers, acquisitions, turnarounds, management buyouts, all these different ways of growing a business that were nonlinear. And that motivated me to go on and do an MBA, and that then motivated me to leave my employer, who was a great company. I was working for Nokia for 15 years. They were amazing, but I decided to leave them and go out and embrace all this nonlinear stuff and found a company from scratch. And one day I thought maybe I’ll do a spin-out, or maybe I’ll do an acquisition, and I’ll do all these different things. And it was purely for the joy of learning and the intellectual adventure. So I think that’s my Why. It’s learning. Yeah. Well, learning is great, and it’s a big driver of businesses when they are able to learn, especially in today’s age. So tell me a little bit about how Mobile Mentor is reflecting this way of learning. Is it a learning organization, and in what way is it? Oh, that’s an interesting question, Steve. I would hope we are a learning organization. Something I’ve been saying to my kids and my staff for years is, “We’re a learning species. We can learn anything we put our minds to.” And so I would hope we are a learning organization. And the word “mentor” plays a huge part in not just our brand, but how we work. So we’re a technology service company. We’re always unpacking the latest technology and helping customers figure out what to do with it and how to extract value from it. So I would hope that we’re good at learning what the technology can do and then translating that into outcomes for customers and helping people unlock the full potential of the technology they’ve just purchased. And when we started 22 years ago, we were focused on mobile devices. That’s why the company’s called Mobile Mentor. Nowadays, it’s mainly AI and security and all that. And by the way, we’re going through a rebrand. The company’s just going to be called Mentor going forward. Just Mentor. So that we can work with all technology, so we remove any association with that small device where we started 22 years ago. So I think we are very good at learning, internalizing the new technology, and then translating that into business outcomes for our customers. Yeah. That’s what I feel like our core skill is. Yeah. And I love this concept of mentoring because essentially it’s not about teaching people, it’s about helping people discover how to be great. And if you can do that, that’s amazing. So that brings me to the next question, which is about frameworks. So this, as you know, this podcast is about frameworks, and what I’m curious about is, what’s a framework that has helped you grow this company, build this company, or help your clients or mentor your clients? Maybe it’s a mentoring framework. Maybe it’s a technology framework. So something that comes to mind that can be explained in three to five steps to our listeners. Sure. We have a really strong framework at the front end of our sales process. It’s an assessment and roadmap we do for customers. And it’s something that’s on our website. It has a price point, so it’s got a value, but we choose to give it away for free when we get a strong, well-qualified opportunity, or when we have a channel partner bring us a strong lead. We will use this assessment and roadmap process to build a vision for the customer. And the way we do it, we’ve got a good framework for this. We go through an assessment. So we tell the customer, “We’re going to have a look at your environment holistically and get a really good understanding of the technology stack you have today, all the different technologies you’re using, and also get a good understanding of your organization’s capability and capacity for change, and how you embrace change, how you make change happen. “And we’re going to show you how you compare to a whole bunch of other organizations.” I think we’ve done 174, 175 of these in the last maybe three years. And so we show the customer how they compare to others in their industry and also against others roughly their same size. And then, most importantly, we build out a roadmap, and we show them, “Here’s how you can potentially go from where you are today with today’s technology stack,” which is usually very busy, it’s usually a long list of technologies, “to a much simpler technology stack in the future if they’re willing to consolidate on one or two platforms and do all the possible integrations, automations, and simplifications so that they’re extracting much more value from one or two platforms, like Microsoft, than having a whole colorful mix of different technology vendors.” So we’ll say, “Here’s a journey you could go on,” and then we describe it in vivid detail, showing all the different parts and how they would go passwordless, how they would automate setting up new employees and all the technology they need, how they would automate all their patching and security, how they would embrace AI into their operations, how they would use AI for productivity improvements, and kind of show this technology journey. That process, or that framework, of doing an assessment, and it covers 120 different topics. So we do the assessment, the comparison, the roadmap. We find that to be extremely powerful because customers will look at that, and they’ll look at the destination and say, “Right. We want to be there. We want to get that outcome,” and then they’re buying off us. We’re not selling to them. They’re basically saying, “Okay. We want to get there. How do we do it? Help us. How can you come in and help us do it?” So the narrative flips from us being a sales organization to then being a mentor and helping the customer figure out how to get there. And of course, we want to sell services, and we want to sell long-term contracts to say, “Yes, we can take you from here to there, and it’s a three-year engagement to do all those changes.” So that’s what we want. But the customer is buying it off us because they’ve bought into the destination. Yeah. And that’s the modern buyer’s journey, right? They research you. Before even they come to you, they want to listen to you because you might have something for them. So I love this framework. So what I noted down was step number one, understand the technology stack that they have. Step number two, assess their ability to manage change or to handle change. Yeah. Then you benchmark them to others in their industry or in their peer group. Then you build the roadmap, and then you show them the simplified end state, the simplified tech stack. Correct. Correct. And then we give them options around how we can help them to get there. Usually, there’s three options. And we say, “Well, what style of engagement works best for you? How would you like us to work with you?” And then it becomes a very comfortable, easy sales process from there, and it becomes easy because we’ve done all the listening. So when we do the assessment and we cover 120 topics, we do 60 questions in 60 minutes. So it’s two one-hour sessions. And we call it our “friendly interrogation.” But what happens during that time is what I call a selfless immersion in the customer’s world. So we don’t talk about us. We never talk about us. Everything is about them, their technology stack, their environment, their processes, their technical dependencies, all the things about their organization. So we get this really rich understanding of their environment. And at the end, guess what they say, Steve? Or guess what they say at the end of that interrogation or that assessment session? I don’t know. Give it to us. What do they say? They say thank you, which is extraordinary, and it surprised me when it started happening. But people love to be heard. We’re not selling. We’re not pitching anything. We are just seeking to understand their environment and asking a whole bunch of really good questions. So we don’t need to tell them who we are and what we’ve done, that we’ve won Microsoft Partner of the Year and blah, blah, blah. We don’t need to do any of that. They know that we know our stuff because of the questions we’re asking, because those questions have been refined and refined and refined. So we’re able to get right into the heart of their issues, and they tell us all about their environment and their issues and concerns and frustrations. And at the end of the assessment, they say, “Thank you.” And I remind them, I say, “We haven’t delivered anything yet. All we’ve done is asked you a whole bunch of questions.” But they feel like it was almost a cathartic process of unloading and sharing all of it. And then we do the second session, and the rapport gets even better, and they bring in some different people. So by the time we get to the end of the assessment, we’ve had a really good conversation about 120 different things. There’s now a high degree of trust. And so when we come back in the third session, we say, “Okay, we heard you. Here’s where you are. Here’s how you compare to others. Here’s where you could be, and here’s what the journey would look like to get you there, taking all the complexities into account, all the dependencies, all the legacy, all the technical debt you might have. “Here’s what it would take to get you to where you want to be.” They’re now listening and they’re trusting us because we’ve listened to them. Yeah. I love that. That is very powerful. And asking good questions is actually not always easy. In the age of AI, answers are omnipresent, but good questions, good prompts, that’s a skill, right? To ask the right question. It is. And it’s interesting you mention AI because we’re not using any AI in the way we do this. We could choose to send out a form to the customer and say, “Please fill out this form.” Actually, we tried that. We tried that 10 or 12 years ago in our New Zealand operation, and it was a complete disaster. Nobody wants to fill out a long form and answer all those questions. But if you have a conversation face-to-face, on Teams or Zoom, whatever, you can have the conversation. You’ll get all the information. But now we’re establishing rapport between us while we do that, and that also gives them a flavor of what it’s like to work with us. How we interact and how we follow up the question, how we drill down, how we clarify and confirm, “Did I understand that correctly?” in a way that you don’t get from just filling out a web form. And we also don’t use AI to analyze the transcript and try and fill it out. We actually do it based on us understanding it, because we find we get way more detail and nuance than relying on a transcript. That’s very interesting. Definitely, when there’s a human on the other end who is interested in what you’re saying and is listening deeply, it’s a highly motivating and even inspiring thing. That’s why it’s hard to make a talk without the audience, because you need the energy of the audience. So you provide the energy for them to come up with the goods and explain where they are, right? Yeah, yeah. So let me switch gears and ask you this. What drives growth in your business? What drives growth? Two things. One, that process sets us up to be able to sell something. The fastest-growing thing that we sell is a service called mentoring, which is very closely aligned to our brand and the way we work, and it’s something that’s very unique to us. So what we figured out is that there are some customers who just want to bring in a partner to build something for them let’s say to deploy some new technology, and then they want the vendor to go away and leave them with it. There are other organizations who don’t want to touch the technology. They want somebody to provide a managed service, so you get all the outcomes. And those two technology service categories have been around forever, right? Microsoft has 400,000 partners doing this kind of work, doing project work, or providing managed services. We found a huge white space in the middle between those two. We found there’s a big white space in the mid-market, in particular mid-market organizations, where they have their own IT team. They don’t want to give the keys away to a managed service provider and let go. They want to learn all about the new technology. They want to internalize the knowledge, and they want somebody to come in and help them deploy it with them, and be hands-on-keyboard, and do it together with them, and do lots of knowledge transfer, and help them build the documentation and the knowledge base, and get the experience and the skills so that their skills grow, their confidence grows. And we call that service mentoring, where we’re doing that for them. So we’re not just building it and walking away, we’re building it together with them. And it can be a one-year, two-year, five-year engagement where we’re building out this complex technology capability, but we’re doing it together, and they become the experts over time. That is our fastest-growing, top-selling service. That’s fascinating. So it’s essentially coaching, mentoring, and still you turn it into an ongoing engagement because it’s not simple, right? There are a lot of layers to it. And what’s the timeline of such a relationship? Typically three years. Typically. It can be as short as one, it can be as long as five. But for most of the technology transformation projects we’re doing, I would say they’re two, three, four years for the organization to change and embed all the changes and turn off all the legacy technology and fully embrace the new way of working. So our typical contract is three years. And then we set up all the cadences so that we’re working together every week through specific things, and there’s a weekly cadence, our engineers doing all that stuff, and then monthly coming up for air to see how we’re doing against the roadmap. Do we need to make any changes? What’s the focus for next month? And that’s a rolling process that keeps going on and on. And so the two teams end up working extremely closely. Our engineering team, and we’re bringing in different architects, engineers, and there’s obviously a consistent project manager across it. And on the customer side, they’re bringing different engineers or architects depending on the piece of work we’re doing. But it’s generally all modernizing the way they work with Microsoft technology primarily, and changing from legacy stuff to very modern, invisible security, embedded AI, really trying to accelerate their maturity as an organization. Yeah. Love it. Does that make sense? So it makes sense. I’m wondering, I mean, most businesses these days, they want to have recurring revenue, and even though you have a three-year engagement, it’s still not an evergreen engagement. So what do you do to turn these engagements into more of an enduring one, or you’re not trying to do it because it’s not the purpose? That’s the $64 million question for our business, Steve, is how do we turn a two-year or three-year engagement into something longer? And it actually comes back to where you started with the learning thing. So what we need to be doing, and this is a constant battle for us, is learning about the latest and the newest technologies and staying ahead of the customer. Always staying ahead in terms of our knowledge so that we can keep adding new things to the backlog of work that needs to be done. So that we might deploy technology A and get that done and do the migration and modernization, but then we need to move on to B and C and D and E. And there’s always new stuff, and actually the rate of change is accelerating now with AI. Everything is changing so fast, it’s unbelievable. But our job is to stay ahead so that we can always have something new and edgy that we can bring to the relationship. That we’re always able to give new knowledge, information, value. So is it a managed technology business or is it more of a consulting business? Ah, we are three different things. We do a lot of project work where people will come in and say, “Migrate us from platform A to platform B.” So we do that. We do this mentoring service where we’re doing the change and modernization together with the customer. We’re also a managed service provider. We have a lot of small and medium businesses that say, “We don’t have an IT team. We don’t want to have an IT team. Manage this stuff, make it invisible to us. Just give us great service and give us great reports and be transparent with us.” And that’s part of our business too. So I would say we’re roughly one-third professional services, project work, one-third mentoring, and one-third managed services. So more than half the business is recurring revenue in any given year. So what makes this kind of business hard to scale, or what makes it easy to scale? What makes it hard to scale is finding great people who can learn and share that learning with customers, so people who are natural mentors. So what we do not want is to hire geeks who want to just put on noise-canceling headsets and sit in front of a screen coding all day. They would not work for us. We want people who are head up, good people skills, want to learn it, but want to share it. Naturally very good at sharing. So getting the right people, that’s one constraint to growth. The thing that makes growth easy for us is our relationship with Microsoft. That’s unbelievable. We didn’t have a relationship with Microsoft 11 years ago, and they came to us and asked us to become a partner, and we did. And they asked us to work with them on a specific technology that was very immature at the time. And I set a goal for our team. I said, “What would it take us to become the best in the world at that one specific technology? To become the best in the world on that technology as it matures and grows?” And we set that as our North Star and really went after that and focused everything on that. And that enabled us then to win Microsoft Global Partner of the Year based on our focus on that. And by winning that award, that got us noticed because they got 400,000 partners. So at the time, I was based in New Zealand, so basically the second-last rock before the end of the earth. And so we were nobody in a nowhere place and not noticed, and we’re just one of 400,000, completely lost in the noise. We got noticed when we won Global Partner of the Year and when we got recognized for being the best in the world at that one technology, and that changed everything, and I moved to America. Then Microsoft introduced us to a whole bunch of customers, including the largest healthcare organization in the world, the largest education provider in the world, and largest government departments. And so now our business is totally different to what it looked like 11 years ago before Microsoft. And this goes on and on. So almost every day, they contact us to say, “Hey, we got this customer over here, and they got this problem, and we thought of you.” And then they introduce us, and we do our assessment, show them how they compare, build a roadmap, and say, “What would you like to do from here?” Yeah. I’m just very curious about what is that technology, and what is the ideal customer for you for that technology? That technology is a platform called Intune. It’s a device management platform, so it’s for managing desktops, laptops, MacBooks, smartphones, tablets, and all that. And everything we do, of course, starts with a device. And so it’s the technology that secures and manages and configures our devices. Microsoft Intune is the name of the product, and that’s where we’ve got very, very deep expertise. But that leads us to all the other parts of the Microsoft 365 environment, and most organizations are using Microsoft 365 to some extent. So in most cases, they’re coming to us and saying, “Hey, this customer has bought our licenses. They’ve got Microsoft 365 E5 or E3, whatever. They’re not using it all. They’ve got all these overlapping competitive products. They want to consolidate, reduce costs, or they want to improve security, or they want to simplify their environment. Can you help?” And we’re like, “Hell yeah, we can help. That’s right in our wheelhouse.” And so we have a discovery call with the customer. They tell us what they want to achieve, and if they’re a good fit for our assessment and roadmap, then we’ll propose that. So we’re not trying to sell anything at that stage, and we’ll do that. It’s many, many hours of work. We’ll do that roadmap and assessment at our cost. Sorry, that’s our investment. That’s our investment in the relationship, so that we’re showing that we’re giving value back to the customer and to Microsoft because they brought us that lead, and we’re creating value from day one. And sometimes the customer will go, “Thank you. We understand the journey. We’re going to do it ourselves,” or, “We’ve got an existing partner,” or, “We don’t have budget,” whatever. And so we don’t land them all, but we’ve got a very high conversion rate. We land a lot of them. And even if we don’t, I know that we deliver a huge amount of value through the process, and the customer goes, “Wow, that was great. That was a great process. We learned a lot. We can see where we need to go. We might be back in touch in the future when we do have budget or when the stars align.” Or they refer someone else. Yeah. So if you had a magic wand and you could fix one thing in your business in the next 12 months, what would that be? I would say it would be doing more with AI internally. Some days I feel like an imposter because we are selling a lot of AI services, and we do a lot of AI work for our customers. But I, as the leader, I don’t do enough. I’m not doing enough with AI. I’m not building enough capability. I’m leading the charge, but I’m not savvy enough myself. And I feel like our leadership team could be doing more. So I feel like doing more, embedding more AI into how we work, is something I want to change or fix in the next year. Not just doing it for customers. Yeah. I mean, you can never do enough with AI, right? There’s so much out there and so much changing, and to stay ahead of it, one’s head is spinning all the time. It’s very inspiring, but can be also overwhelming. That’s true. And one of the things I’m dealing with is managing what we call AI slop, where we see people internally and externally producing things that are not good-quality outcomes because it hasn’t been double-checked. So just because it could be produced quickly and easily by AI doesn’t mean it’s great or specific enough or detailed enough or accurate enough for the result, whether that’s an internal report or an external thing. So the coaching I’m giving people is you’re still responsible for the thing, the quality of the thing. You have to read it, make sure it’s on point, it’s detailed enough, the customer’s going to be happy with it or your manager’s going to be happy with it. We are still responsible for the thing we produce. Let’s not get lazy. Yeah. And the more content you generate and the more solutions you generate with AI, the more the mental load on the decision-makers to actually filter out what’s not real and what’s real. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can see that happening. So if someone is listening to this and says, “Wow, I love this idea that you benchmark me, you figure out what our tech is, learn our tech, benchmark us, come up with a roadmap, and evaluate the organization, how fast we can manage change, and then come up with a roadmap and mentor us to get there and simplify our tech stack,” and would like to learn more and perhaps connect with you, where should they go? Where can they find out more information? I’m on LinkedIn only. I’m not on other social platforms. I’m a bit of a Neanderthal in that regard. But Denis, with one N and O’Shea, O-S-H-E-A, on LinkedIn, and my company is Mobile Mentor. It will be Mentor soon, but we’ll keep the Mobile Mentor alive for quite a while. And so go to the company, mobile-mentor.com. And yeah, love to talk to any of your listeners and audience if this is a technology journey they want to go on or want a partner to work with them. That’s the role we play, being a mentor and helping people get the outcomes, but internalizing it and becoming experts while doing so. Yeah. So if you want to filter out the AI slop and the AI noise, and you want real people who will look at your specific situations and help you and mentor you and help your staff get up to speed and simplify, then reach out to Denis. And if you enjoyed this conversation, stay tuned because every week I bring a couple of entrepreneurs who are sharing their frameworks of how they’re improving and growing their businesses, and you can implement some of these things yourself. So thanks, Denis. Denis O’Shea, the founder and CEO of Mobile Mentor, soon to be called Mentor. Thanks for coming on the show, and thank you for listening. Thank you, Steve. Always a pleasure. Important Links: Denis’s LinkedIn Denis’s website

https://youtu.be/35oNXqlEVf4 Dave Goyal, Founder and CEO of Think AI Corporation, is driven to Turn Disabilities into Unique Abilities by using technology to empower disabled entrepreneurs and help businesses unlock the value of their data. After contracting polio as an infant, Dave transformed physical limitations and early adversity into a passion for solving business problems, building companies, and giving back to society. Through Think AI, he helps manufacturing and healthcare leaders use data and AI to generate real-time insights, improve productivity, reduce costs, and create new opportunities for growth. In this conversation, Dave introduces The 3G AI Augmentation Framework—Gap: Where are we losing time, quality, ability, or capacity? Grow: Apply AI to augment people and improve that work. Glow: Institutionalize the solution so humans and AI collaborate effectively. Dave also shares how his private second brain and AI executive agents save him up to 80 hours per month, why human control and security must remain central to AI adoption, and how authority, trust, people, customers, and culture drive business growth. He also discusses his book, Real-Time Business Intelligence Mastery, and his vision for creating a venture studio for disabled entrepreneurs. — Turn Disabilities into Unique Abilities with Dave Goyal Good day. Steve Preda here with The Management Blueprint. And today my guest is Dave Goyal, the founder and CEO of Think AI Corporation, which helps CTOs and CIOs in manufacturing and healthcare turn siloed data into real-time insights and automation, creating reduced downtime, increased efficiency, and going from weeks to days in project launches. Dave, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Steve. Well, I’m really curious to learn about you and your company, Think AI Corporation, but first I’d like to ask you about your personal why and how you are manifesting it in your business. So thank you again, Steve. I’m really excited to be on your show. I’m in the data and AI business, and really tech innovation, for the last 30 years. In this particular company, Think AI, I have a partner, Manish Bhardia, and we both have been working very actively with Microsoft partners, the Microsoft ecosystem, and implementing data and AI solutions for midsize companies and manufacturing companies. You went on why, which is amazing. My why: I’m a disabled entrepreneur. I have this hunger for building businesses. I’ve built nine businesses. We can talk about it later. And five of them were miserable failures in my books. Not all of them were that miserable, as I say. But five of them were failures, and I learned a lot from them. And I’m really motivated now to expand it further, to give back to small businesses. We’ve been working with midsize and enterprise clients, but to midsize companies, and then motivate—I have a 15-year-old kid—so motivate young people and also small businesses to make use of the power of their own data and use and consume AI on a day-to-day basis. That’s my why. Wow. So, to learn the power of their own data and use AI, why is this important to you? The main reason is I am passionate about technology. Everybody is good at something. I am really good at solving business problems using technology. Being a disabled entrepreneur, I did not have a lot of luxury initially, even walking. Eventually, I started using braces, started going to different countries. So the passion became really the source of energy and motivation, and that passion is now going to a level where I want to motivate people like me who are disabled entrepreneurs and want to go into this kind of business. So my real passion is technology and giving back to society using technology, to sum it up. Wow. So you mentioned this disabled entrepreneur. I’ve never heard this term. I mean, you talk about minority entrepreneurs, women entrepreneurs, you know, veteran entrepreneurs, and actually the government recognizes these categories, but I never heard about disabled entrepreneurs. So would you mind sharing a little bit about what happened to you and how you got into this entrepreneurship? Sure, yeah. And that’s really good, by the way. I don’t see anybody else using that term but me, so probably I should keep it with me as a copyright term. Just joking on it. But having said that, every disability brings some kind of ability. That’s why sometimes they call it differently abled. When you have these abilities, you don’t know the source or the channels to use them. So, for example, blind people, they may have a lot of great listening power. That’s why they are into music most of the time. Sometimes they have amazing reasoning and critical-thinking power, but they don’t know how to channel it, so they fight on a day-to-day basis with these issues. Bringing it back to me, I have polio. When I was six months old, I got hit by the polio virus. Initially, for a few years, I had to just lie down on the bed, had a lot of physical therapy. Then I was able to get up and sit, at least. Then my father was carrying me to school, and I could see the kids were going out and playing. I got beaten up because of that, too, because kids don’t understand. No fault of theirs that I’m not throwing the ball at them and they are playing. And so that brought a lot of negativity in me. Eventually, my grandfather and my father helped me get over that, and I started channeling that into building businesses. So I started teaching music. I learned music through some of my friends. I started teaching music during my college days and started making money. And I had a blind friend, and he needed money because he was abandoned by his parents, so I had to help him out. I started making some money. I was doing well with my family, so I could just pay everything back to him. So that seed got planted there, and I didn’t know what to do back then, right? Still a 14-, 15-year-old kid or a teenager, in this case. So I started getting into that mindset of, how about I build businesses for me and then start helping out the community? I’m still not there yet. I’m going towards helping that community. But I want to identify disability in three ways, not just physical. So those three are physical, but the bigger one is mental. A lot of people are really mentally blocked, and you see people, you know, “Oh, I can’t change anything in my life.” People die by suic*de. Kids get into depression. This is a form of disability, by all means. I don’t think education, parents, and community are doing so much about that other than having a cliché thing that, “I was a victim of depression, so I’m doing that,” just to show off. But really, to help out the community in a methodical manner, that doesn’t exist. Second, physical disability, like I said, given by God sometimes, like war veterans and others, then you feel really limited. So what to do with that? And I come into that category, so I know that really well. Third is financial disability. So a lot of financial disability is in the mind, too. I’ve heard a phrase called, “You don’t die by hunger; you really die by indigestion.” So you would find ways and means to make money even if you’re a completely disabled person. So I don’t think finance is an issue in general. So these three areas, to me, are the real disability areas. I’m obviously only working on one today, which is physical disability: how to identify the potential of people who can create something different within that limitation and then make a change in the world. So that’s the motivation. That’s my Life 2.0, where I’m moving now. Love it. Love it. So how did you have time to build nine businesses? I started it in 1993, ’94, I believe, or ’95, I think. And they’re one at a time. Today I have about three. I sold one. And yeah, I did not have time. One of the big challenges when I built these three in the last six, seven, eight years, the biggest challenge I faced is I do not have time for working with customers, which I love to do—talking and listening to their business problems, solving those problems. I end up doing a lot of operational work. Post-2020, and it’s a very blunt thing to say, people got lazy. They want to change jobs, make more money, do moonlighting, do multiple things, but not work hard like we did back in the days. And that kind of pushed all of us small businesses to do a lot more management of resources, especially human resources, in a distributed environment. I have teams in India, the Philippines, Canada. So that became a bigger challenge. But having said that, AI came as a savior. In the last 18 months, AI has changed quite a lot. And if you don’t go into a debate of whether AI is good or bad, or you’re a skeptic or an enthusiast, AI can really help you if you really put together how it can help you. It should not replace you, but it should give you an additional helping arm. In my business, I started deploying C-suite. So I still have a VP of operations. My business partner is into sales. But then I started filling in other functions, like a fractional CFO, as an example. My fractional CFO is monitoring my top line and bottom line. I call him Felix. I have to give names to AI agents. So Felix is actually looking on a weekly basis at what invoices are billed, if we have vendors or employees, what we need to pay, where our expenses are going, what’s the monthly or maybe six-month cash flow run. Are we within limits? Do we have borderline cash availability so that we can survive? So it started to do a lot of things. But not only that, because we are feeding our own data, our own mind, I have built my own second brain. It started to read off of that and started giving me insights that a human would not give me. And even if I hire a fractional CFO, he will only hear what I have to say, look into some of my books, and then give me some blanket suggestions. Here, this is really tailor-made to our problems, our situation, and it worked phenomenally well. So I’m building that as a product now. It’s not done yet. Then I also deployed my own CMO called Sasha, and she started to look into my marketing angles, my branding, my voice, my identity. I love writing, but now AI can help me—not just create a blanket AI post or something, but really read how I write, what I write. So I create ideas. It helps me research, does a factual check on it. So I give 100 words. It can take those ideas and then expand into newsletter articles or a big campaign. I can start building different case studies for our customers, proof of concept, building podcasts such as these. So this started freeing up—I only talked about two executives, and I have seven of them—but they started to help me free up my time. And believe it or not, I am getting about 40 to 60 hours, and in good months, about 80 hours per month. So 30 to 50% of my regular time is freed up. So that time is now going into this movement that I’m thinking about, which is disabled entrepreneurship. Wow, that is impressive. So tell me a little bit about this. This is a podcast of frameworks. So do you have a framework for maybe launching an AI agent like that? I definitely do, and I want you to expand on it. But in terms of what I have, I look into three things. Where is the gap in terms of human? Where I see either performance issues, quality issues, or availability and capacity issues. So what are those things which don’t hit my security side of things, don’t interact with my customer, and still help me in my operations? That’s the gap we look into. How can we use and fill that gap to grow what we need to work on? And then last, so I use three Gs with my last name, Goyal, right? So Gap to Grow to Glow. So now how can we use this in our business to glow and create an environment where even humans can interact with this AI persona? So we are always big on human-in-the-loop or human-in-control with any AI solution. So it always starts with the gap. Where is the gap? Where is it taking time from one of the human sides of our team? I like that. I like that you isolated those things which are less risky to develop, because I think a lot of people are held back by this idea that it’s a black box, you don’t know what you’re getting into, you don’t know what you don’t know, and it’s risky, and then they don’t do anything. But you actually isolated that customer interaction is a risk you don’t want to live with right now, and security is another one you don’t want to, which, I mean, it’s obvious. But if those are not hurt, then really what is the risk you’re running? So I like it. So how do you fire up an AI agent like that? So in terms of technology, I’m using a few things. I’m using Claude Code, the full Claude environment. So we build it off of that. Back in my days, I worked as a white-hat hacker, so the security angle we mentioned, I’m always so worried about hacking and security. So I have a completely isolated environment at my home on a Mac Mini, a really powerful Mac Mini, and that cannot go out on the internet and do things. And nobody can inject anything. But then I still need to feed information to it, so I have another machine where the only job of that machine is to provide information to this system. So I have my own second brain mapped into Obsidian, which is a note-taking application, but it’s really organized. So I first fed all my knowledge. I’ve recorded lots and lots of audios and documents, and it has learned. So I built that system first, like Dave’s second brain. And my second brain has learned everything about me. Nobody can see it but me. That’s my initial basis, right? After that, I built a working memory for my agents, for my company, and I’m doing it for one company at a time. Think AI is not completely live on the system, but Data & AI Studio is, which is a solo entrepreneurship business that I have. It is learning everything about that business as we speak. Even the transcripts from these podcasts and other places go into it, and it learns from it. There will be some insights which it will find, so it retains them. So Claude Code, Mac Mini, Obsidian—these are the basis. And then I’ve deployed my own personal models, like DeepSeek, and that is sitting locally on that machine. So the model is local. The downside is it’s not getting updated, so I only update it when I feel that it’s right. Not risk, it’s really the downside. There’s no risk in it. So you’re not on the latest and greatest, but you don’t have to be on the latest and greatest all the time. So Claude Code is on the latest and greatest, but when we deploy, it may not apply certain features that Claude Code is making available. And that’s fine. That’s the risk I’m taking. That’s the trade-off I’m taking. And the system is working great for the last six months. In the last 18 months, even though I started AI about 28, 30 years ago, the last 18 months is when I learned the new-age AI, and the last six months is when I started building this in an iterative manner. And it is pretty stable now. It can do a lot of things like I mentioned. So your agents are running on your Mac Mini off the grid? Yes. And then you’re feeding information with another computer to it to essentially give them the raw material from which they can build stuff, right? Right. A good example there, if I may expand: we use QuickBooks in our accounting system. It cannot read QuickBooks directly, but we, being a Microsoft partner, understand technology. I can write a job which can push data into the Mac Mini. It doesn’t read off of it. My Mac Mini, which has the agent, doesn’t know where that data has come from. It has the data, so it’s already synthesized. It cannot communicate with others. So that’s the calculated risk we take, right? Getting the data from one angle, one way, and then it’s synthesizing and analyzing data and getting insights out of it. So that’s the balance of systems that I have. I love it. That’s very clever. And what is your main business anyway? Because you talk about three businesses right now. What is your core business? What is your flagship business? The flagship business is Think AI. It’s a consulting organization, a three-time Inc. 5000 winner in terms of growth. We have our own team, but then we also use a lot of vendors which are qualified by us throughout the world. And we are Microsoft Advanced Specialization partners. What that means is we are in the top 2% of the worldwide partners within the Microsoft ecosystem, which is about 500,000 partners. And we work mainly with midsize manufacturers, and sometimes healthcare if they are okay and open to AI, and if not, data. So we go in there, look into whether they have a data and AI strategy. If they do, we work on their initiatives. If they have the initiatives. If not, we create the initiatives for them by doing some POCs and whatnot. And once we get engaged, we do deliverables like consulting services. But it’s not like typical consulting services where you place a resource. It’s really a value-based delivery model where we try to understand two business imperatives. One is what can help them make more revenue. And if we cannot find that, what can help them be more productive and have cost-cutting in one way or the other. So these are the two main business imperatives we work on. When and if we align with that, then we give them a roadmap, a phase-wise approach, which they can do with us or with somebody else, and then we keep delivering on it. So that’s the whole model. So what drives growth in the Think AI business? I mean, finding more customers, to say the least. And that becomes difficult because today everything is becoming a commodity. So one good learning, by the way, I need to share with the audience here. When you’re a small business, you think your brand is the value that you have. It’s the founders who are the brand. So it’s Manish and me. Manish, my business partner, is really big in productivity, project management, and that kind of thing. And I’m really good at building solutions using tech. And together we have about 55 years of experience. And then our key team members are ex-Microsoft or MVPs, Microsoft Most Valuable Professionals. So we hire a really strong key team. And the team below, we can either fill with our members, hire our own members, or go to the vendors also, and we tell it to our clients also. So our delivery model is we are the ones who are delivering. The guarantee is taken by Manish and Dave, not by Think AI. We have gotten into that situation. We are about 95% successful, so there’s a 5% failure. And the failure is either because we have the wrong team member, the communication between the client and us was not clear, the scope was not clear, the definition of value and done was not clear, and we have learned from it. So our business model is towards that, and that brings us growth because we work with a number of partners. Manish is part of a lot of Microsoft channel partner networks. We provide complementary services to those partners. So one channel is we work with a lot of partners because the trust is there. Authority and trust are the two factors we have understood which establish your business, and it’s the founders’ authority and trust, not the company. Company will build on its own. So we started building our own authority and trust, and that gets us growth. It’s not at the level we’d like, but we are happy. You are happy. Okay. So what is your vision? What would you like to make out of this? So we have an exit plan, at least on Think AI. And like I told you, Manish has his own. That is up to him. For me, I want to create this venture studio for disabled entrepreneurs, get the funds from here, and then harvest, go across the world. So three hobbies I have. One is travel. Second is reading, writing stuff, books. And third is music. And entrepreneurship comes in this whole surroundings, in this whole ring, so it’s the foundation of it. So we’re going to build this disabled entrepreneurship venture studio with a little bit of funds from our exit, and hope to grow there and hope to retire or die with that thinking. Love it. Love it. It’s fascinating. So you have a book that is on your LinkedIn page, Real-Time Business Intelligence Mastery. So tell me about this book. Why did you write it, and what’s it about? Sure. So we went into a coaching program. Up until 2022, we were arrogant enough to say, “Oh yeah, we can do everything on our own.” And then slowly we realized we need help, and we started taking help. We went to a couple of coaches in India where they were coaching us either on how to manage operations and operational excellence, and then another coach who’s like a life/building-your-brand marketing coach, and he inspired us to write a book. Now, I’ve been writing in my own native Hindi language, songs and compositions, but writing a book was a dream, and I thought it’s a big undertaking. But with their little bit of motivation and help, not in writing, but in the angle of what a book can bring. So I have a lot of experience working in midsize manufacturing organizations, working with CTOs and CIOs, and business intelligence is delayed. So it’s either a one-day delay or a week delay or a month delay, and it’s more reactive in nature. So the book was more about how you can build a real-time business intelligence culture so that you can get the insights from your data, make actionable insights, take actions on it, and grow your business for those two imperatives I talked about, which is grow your revenue or increase your productivity and decrease your cost. So are you writing about some of the things that you talked about? Leveraging AI, building AI agents? It has more about—so I wrote it in 2022, I believe. It has a lot more detail about. AI was not as popular, right? I mean, I did write about AI in it, but it was more about building a data culture than AI. It does talk briefly about AI because real-time is going very closely with AI. That’s the enabler for AI insights or data insights through AI. So it does talk a little bit about AI, but it talks more about tech leaders like CIOs and CTOs. What do they need to do? How do they need to build a culture around harvesting data, bring the data, build the team, where to take it? So it has those details. Okay. That’s fascinating. Who is this book for? Is it for founders? Is it for C-level executives? Who is the target? Like I said, it’s for tech leaders, CIOs, and CTOs of midsize organizations. Okay. That’s awesome. And these are the people that are your target customers as well at Think AI? Yes. That’s our true ideal client profile too, and that’s whom we have worked with all our lives. So they’re close friends, target audience, and customers. Future customers and current customers. All in one. All in one. That’s so nice when you write a book to your friends. That’s a very cool concept. So let me ask you this, Dave. If you had a magic wand, you’ve done a lot of things in your business, you built nine businesses. You learned from some of the failures that you had, which is part of entrepreneurship, and now you created AI agents, and then you have a second brain, and you’re leveraging all that technology. So if you had a magic wand and you could fix one thing in your business in the next 12 months, what would that be? I wish I had more senior leadership. Any business works with delegation. We have a couple who are really amazing, and they wear a lot of hats. But growth depends on three things, right? Being in front of the right customer, having the right team, and having the right product. Our product is people, unfortunately and fortunately. Customers, we are very happy and excited, and they trust us. We know how to get to them. We know how to create value for them. We are very satisfied. Everybody would say, “I need more customers,” and we would do that too. But I think more important is what product you are offering. So then people are what we are offering, and we are competing against big ones like Accenture and Avanade and Cognizant of the world in our business, the tech consulting business. But then we are not competing against cost; we are competing against value. So how do you create value? You find a valuable customer. They understand our language. The next level is, where is the product, which is the people? And that management becomes quite difficult. And harvesting and getting the right people in place is a job by itself. So kudos to those large companies if they’re harvesting one, although that’s debatable because when we go to the client, they complain a lot about their resources as well. So harvesting the right product and the right team is the key. And how do you do that? If you have the right leaders on top. Two partners alone cannot do that. So building more leaders underneath is the key. We are able to build a few, and I wish we could build a lot more. So when you have the right core team, your growth comes in, is my belief system. It could be different for everyone else. No, I think it’s a very deep insight, and very few people actually talk about this idea that the purpose of a business, especially in today’s AI age, is to build leaders. That’s your purpose, because people will take care of everything. They’re going to run your AI agents. They’re going to manifest your vision. But you can’t have just AI agents in a company, right? Because then the mental load is so much on the leader, and then the single-person dependency becomes critical. So is this what you mean by this? Where do you come from with this idea of harvesting people and leaders in the business? Absolutely. You said it well. Building leaders doesn’t just apply to an organization, whether small, medium, or big, but even to countries. If you don’t have the right leaders in place, it’s going to bite you back. And all cultures, some of the top management consultants will teach you to go into succession planning. That is what they really mean by that. It’s not succession planning by, okay, replace a CEO with a CEO. It’s the mindset. Apple is a great example of it. Steve Jobs hired Tim Cook from Compaq, from that world, and he had that vision. Obviously, he had a mission, but he had the vision—who to take, where to take, and what they would do. And that legacy continues even today. So Apple didn’t change a single bit in their model. And people would argue and debate, and that’s fine. But when I see it from my eye, he built a great leader. When he did that, the company stayed the same, right? So it’s not about what products Apple is creating today, whether it’s iPhone or iPad or Apple Vision Pro or some of the other things that they are doing, but it’s really that leader. Same thing went with Google, or Microsoft, Satya Nadella. And you see the right leaders were built by these founders. And by any means, we are not that big, and hopefully we can get to some place which is pretty good in our books. But finding and building the right people, it gives you a lot of satisfaction, happiness, bliss, if you can give it back to somebody who’s capable enough. And I’m always in hunt of the right people, building the right team in place. It’s so interesting you mention Apple because when Isaacson came out with the Steve Jobs biography, he said, basically, I think it’s in the preamble of the book, that Steve Jobs wanted people to remember him not for the products that he created, but the company. So his biggest contribution was creating a company. And I didn’t get what he meant by it. But if you witness the last—since he died 13 years ago—the last 13 years, this company has gone from strength to strength. Ninety percent of its market capitalization has been created since he died, right? So it keeps growing and keeps going from strength to strength, and that is the culture and the people that he built. This is the company he built. So it’s quite an amazing idea. I was about to comment on company. Something came back to me or reminded me that companies generally build on three pillars: customer, people, and culture. And if you don’t have the right balance of it—so, the right people, but if you don’t have the right culture, they’re going to run away. If you don’t have the right customers, you should have the ability to say no to certain types of customers too. Like Apple never targeted small, cheap products. And when I say cheap, meaning which doesn’t have the right quality in place, not about the cost. It’s always cost versus quality. So they have really struck the right balance in those three angles, and I think that’s the right way to do it. Some are able to do it, some are able to push through to do it, and some are not. But that’s where I think the focus needs to be if you are a founder. Find that right balance of people, client or customer, and culture. Yeah. And that is your core values too. Yeah. I agree with you. That’s wonderful. If you are listening to this conversation with Dave Goyal, and you would like to learn more about him and what he does and Think AI Corporation, where should our listeners go to learn more? Thank you for this opportunity, first of all. And people can find me on LinkedIn by my name, Dave Goyal. I’m very active there. I recently started a YouTube channel with the name Dave Goyal, so you can find me on YouTube. And mainly on LinkedIn, I have a newsletter on AI, and I’m pretty passionate about what’s happening in AI. So I even publish AI news this week, but with a different angle, a builder’s angle in mind. And last but not least, you can connect with me through LinkedIn for a 15-, 30-minute call. No angle there. I will just come and help you if you really want to do something with AI. I can listen to your challenges or your fear of missing out, if that’s the case, and tell you if AI is the right fit for you or not, and what you can do on your own also. And if you need our help, we are happy to. That’s fantastic. So take Dave up on his offer, which I think is very generous. And obviously, Dave, you know what you’re talking about. You built a second brain. You’re running AI agents. Your C-suite is chock-full of AI agents, which is very impressive. I’d love to learn more about this myself. So if you’re curious about that, make sure you book a call with Dave or check out his stuff. Where is your newsletter? Is it a Substack? Where can people find your newsletter? It’s on LinkedIn. It’s called Data & AI Demystified in my profile. Okay. So that’s easy. So we can go to Dave’s LinkedIn profile. And if you enjoyed this conversation, make sure you subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcasts and YouTube. Give us a review because every week I bring in a couple of exciting entrepreneurs like Dave who share their favorite frameworks with you. So Dave, thanks for coming, and thank you for listening. Important Links: Dave’s LinkedIn Dave’s website

https://youtu.be/1ixNS0eJX-0 Carlos Corredor, Co-Founder and CEO of Condor Digital Marketing, is driven by a passion for interpreting data and helping marketing leaders Generate and Measure Your Pipeline with greater accuracy. ith a background in sports analytics and journalism, Carlos helps B2B companies identify which marketing activities generate qualified leads, clients, and revenue so they can invest confidently in what works. In this conversation, Carlos introduces The Condor Pipeline Generation Framework—Understand Current Pipeline Generation, Map the Process, Move Budgets to Their Highest and Best Use, Fix Measurement Gaps, and Rinse and Repeat. He explains why marketers should begin with clients and revenue instead of clicks and impressions, how the Pipeline X-Ray exposes attribution gaps, and why budgets should move toward channels with proven returns. Carlos also discusses using BANT to diagnose conversion problems and why client champions, paid media, and events drive growth in high-ticket B2B markets. — Generate and Measure Your Pipeline with Carlos Corredor Good day, dear listeners. Steve Preda here with the Management Blueprint, and today my guest is Carlos Corredor, Co-Founder and CEO of Condor Digital Marketing, a pipeline generation and measurement firm. Carlos, welcome to the show. Hey, Steve. Hi, everybody. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. It’s exciting to have you and to learn about your secrets of how you generate a measurable pipeline. But before we get into it, I’m curious: What is your personal why, and how are you manifesting it through your company? Yeah. So I’ve always been passionate about sports and the data behind sports, and I actually worked in sports data analysis and journalism. But ultimately, I’ve been passionate about interpreting data to have an advantage, whether that’s playing tennis or doing analysis for baseball teams. And then I eventually started working in marketing, doing sports websites, and I saw the opportunity. In marketing in general, especially with digital, to use data to your advantage. So I would say that’s really what I’m passionate about in terms of my professional life and why I enjoy what I do so much and why I get up in the morning and I really look forward to the day and even to Monday. Because obviously, it’s not all fun. But ultimately, I think it comes from that passion of liking what you’re doing, and the time flies when you work and you like what you do and you see that you’re good at what you’re doing and it’s making an impact. So I would say that’s why. And have you always been a data person? Are you analytical and like to look at the numbers behind things? Yeah, yeah. It started with sports. That’s where I realized that I had, let’s say, that passion at the beginning and ultimately that skill. With baseball at the beginning, it was reading the back of baseball cards and then fantasy baseball in high school, and then actually working in that. In kind of like sabermetrics and Moneyball-type analysis in college. Because I saw, just like it happens in marketing, how back in the old days, even professionals, they were using the wrong type of data or a very antiquated way of looking at things. So it’s like understanding really what has an impact and what is responsible for outcomes. That’s, I think, the part that I’ve always thought was what’s important and what I had a knack for, a talent to do that better than others. So that’s why I went deep into that. Okay. So how do you do that? So this podcast is a podcast of frameworks. So I wonder if you have a framework of how to create pipeline generation based on data, and perhaps you can share a simplified version of that with our listeners, something that can be explained in three to five steps. Yeah, definitely. And I’ll give you first the kind of like the philosophy or the mental model, and then I’ll give you those steps because one comes from the other. So in marketing, with all of the data that’s available, especially today, a lot of people start at the bottom. At clicks, impressions, and then they try to build a bottoms-up report to then prove what’s generating leads and clients and revenue. But that is always inexact, takes forever. What I propose is doing it the opposite: a top-down approach where you start with clients and revenue, and then start figuring out where those leads in your pipeline or clients and the closed revenue is coming from. And you will know all of that at the beginning. So that’s, I think, how it starts, that framework. So the first step of the framework is to understand, which sounds really basic, but you’d be surprised today how many marketing leaders, marketing VPs, CMOs of especially mid-market, definitely smaller mid-market, and even some enterprise companies, don’t have that data readily available to understand how much pipeline did we, as a marketing department, generate, let’s say, last year. So that’s, I think, the first step, is understanding that. It’s asking your team for a report that says that. Now your team’s going to come back and say they won’t know the full picture. Maybe they know 10%, maybe they know 90%. But they’re going to show you something. So then is the second step. You’re going to start adjusting your investments to what you’re seeing there, and at the same time, you’re going to start fixing the dark holes or what you can’t see. And then simply step number three is rinse and repeat every, let’s say, quarter at the beginning. And obviously, there’s nuances of how exactly you should adjust and what exactly you can fix. But ultimately, that would be the three-step approach that you asked about. That’s fascinating. So the understand piece is understanding your pipeline or how you’re generating the pipeline? What is it? Understanding what? Yeah. So actually we have a name for that first step. We call it the Pipeline X-Ray. So let’s say you start a new job as a CMO of a new company. Or simply you’ve been in the job for a while and you’re listening to this and you say, “Okay, actually, I’ve never thought about it that way. Let’s sit tomorrow with my team and ask the question: How many qualified leads and closed clients have we, as marketing, generated so far this year and, let’s say, last year?” That is understanding that. Now, I’ll tell you, I’d be very surprised if the marketing person or the marketing team or the leader has that data in a way that they can say with 100% certainty what the answer is. In terms of, “We’ve closed these four clients, and we’ve had 72 qualified leads. And out of the 72, 50 have come from our paid search campaigns, 10 have come from events, and then the others have come from organic.” In an ideal world, that’s the type of answer that you want. But in the real world, again, very rarely do you have that clear understanding right then and there. So that’s when step number two becomes, okay, let’s close the gaps to be able to have an understanding. Okay. So essentially, when you say adjust and fix, then are you talking about adjusting and fixing the process of generating clients, or actually mapping the gaps in the pipeline first? Yeah, so that’s a great question. The adjust, I mean move budget around. Not necessarily increase budget. You have to prove what’s working. And obviously, if you don’t have the full picture and understanding, you cannot just go to your CEO and say, “I need more budget.” So with the same budget that you have, what can you pause and move around towards the things that step number one told you with certainty are working. So if, let’s say, out of the 50 qualified leads that you generated, you saw that half of them came from your paid search campaigns, then you say, “Oh, okay.” And then you don’t see anything, let’s say, for conferences, and now you’re going to 10 conferences a year and you’re spending a million dollars on conferences, and you’re only spending $200,000 a year on your paid media spend. Then you say, “You know what? I’m going to stop. I’m going to pause. We’re not going to go to these two conferences this year, and I’m going to move those $200,000, and we’re going to double our spend in Google Ads,” for example. That’s what I mean with the adjust piece. It could be the opposite. It could be pause paid search and then be more aggressive on our conference strategy. It could be, let’s start a paid social campaign, whether that’s LinkedIn or programmatic ads, or let’s be more aggressive on our PR because right now our leads have come from interviews that our subject matter experts have done in certain types of podcasts or YouTube channels. But that’s what step number one is. But adjust is move budget around. Put your stocks where the returns are positive and where you can expect a better return almost immediately, or at least in the next upcoming months. And then the fix is particularly around the measurement gaps. The fix is what you can’t see, right, on step number one. Step number one is understanding. And a report with all of that. When the person that does the reporting for you came back, or when you did it yourself or whatever, probably a lot of leads are like, “Ah, now it says direct traffic. What is that?” Obviously, they didn’t just come and wake up one day and say, “Oh, I’m just going to go to condoragency.com.” No, they heard you somewhere, but you’re still not sure. You won the client, you know you won the client, the client’s paying you money, but you’re not sure. So maybe, okay, what needs to improve in our measurement framework. Usually, you can start with your CRM, your HubSpot, Salesforce, for instance, or whatever you use. There’s some web analytics that might need to happen. You need to connect your advertising platforms. You’re probably going to need to start talking to your sales team so they ask the right questions when they have discovery calls with prospects. I mean, there’s a few things you can do, but I’m talking specifically about measurement gaps so you can have the full picture. So when you talk to new prospects or clients, can they answer one most of the time? They can partially answer one. I would go a step beyond because, I mean, that’s not the sexiest answer. I would say it’s usually, let’s just say, around 50% of their leads and clients, they can know who was responsible. And then there’s a couple of parts there. First and foremost, not only for your sake, but for the sake of your alignment with the C-suite and with the CEO and the CFO and even the sales team. You want to know, is marketing responsible for this? Number one. Because then that’s very important. Because that’s what’s going to justify the existence of the marketing team. Then later, if it came from a paid search campaign or a paid social or a conference, if those all are in the marketing budget, that’s secondary. But most importantly, you want to make sure that, number one, you’re bringing pipeline as a marketing department, and number two, you know exactly what pipeline you’re bringing. Not only you, but then also your CEO and your CFO. So then it’s like a luxury, let’s say, to see if it comes from, the tough part is that you won’t know that it comes from marketing unless you’re tracking paid search and you’re tracking conferences in the CRM the right way. So obviously, they are related in that way. Okay. Love it. So understand your pipeline generation, and then adjust the budget to make sure you’re supporting the ones that generate the most, and fix those that are not optimized. So maybe optimize them or replace them or come up with a new one. How else do you fix other than your measurement gaps? Okay, you fixed the measurement gaps. Now you can measure it. You have a full picture. Then you have a slate of options, and how do you know what to choose if you’re not doing enough? Yeah. So I think there’s a couple of things there. One is understanding if you… Because, obviously, you always want to generate more pipeline. So you have to then say, “Okay, is my problem that I’m not generating any interest in the first place at all?” Like, there’s nobody visiting my website. Or even downloading some pieces of content, what traditionally is called conversions or marketing-qualified leads. Obviously, that’s not the goal. The goal is that they turn into clients. But you have to know that if people are not visiting your website and you’re not seeing marketing-qualified leads coming into your CRM, then you have to do certain things. Whereas if the problem is, “Okay, no, that’s not the problem, Carlos,” and this is actually more common, which is a little counterintuitive, but the more and more that we work with mid-market clients, we realize this is the case.They are generating marketing-qualified leads. There is activity in the CRM. There are companies, new companies, that you see are visiting your website, downloading and consuming content. But then, for some reason, they are not becoming clients. So that’s where we have to dig in and understand. Maybe they downloaded a white paper that was very educational in nature. And they’re not ready to buy. Which is fine, and I’m not saying you have to not show that white paper, but you know that white paper is not going to bring you ready-to-buy customers. So that’s when we have the concept of what sales and marketing people call a BANT-type of lead, which is a lead that has the budget, the authority, the need, and the timing. You want, obviously, a lead that has the four things. Now you start, you measure. Okay, we had 10 leads, and they had, let’s say, the budget and the authority. They were the CTO. The lead of the technology department in the company that we know has the budget. But they just downloaded this and didn’t convert. They didn’t have, let’s say, the timing or the need. Then maybe you rely more on, for example, paid search, which is a channel that, by searching the right keywords, the bottom-of-funnel keywords, for example, we are a pipeline generation firm. If somebody is looking for, “What is Google Ads?” That’s educational. Now, if somebody’s searching for “experienced agencies in B2B managing Google Ads.” Now, that’s somebody that’s ready to hire an agency to manage their Google Ads. So that’s why, for example, in this case, if the component that’s lacking is the need and the timing, paid search could be a way to do it. Or intent data, which is now something that is out there not only via paid search, but you identify certain signals and you can target them on programmatic ads or YouTube or whatever. That’s another alternative. So that’s something that you could do, for example, if you have a pain in moving leads down the funnel and closing clients, and you also realize that you’re talking to the right people, but then they’re simply not converting. And the opposite. You get a lot of people that need your service. But they may be too small, or they may be just a manager and they don’t have the authority to approve a high-ticket service. Then you go towards maybe LinkedIn targeting, or you do a campaign that is based more on account-based marketing, or ABM. Where you know you’re talking to the right people. So again, that’s another adjustment that you can make. So I don’t know if I… Sorry if I deviated a little bit from the question, Steve, but hopefully that’s still— No, it makes sense. It makes sense. So first you want to measure, and then you diagnose. If you’ve got some activity but it’s not converting, why is it not converting? Maybe it’s not the right approach to build trust. Maybe there’s another approach. And then you look at the different elements: budget, authority, need, timing. That makes sense. So let me turn it back to you. So what drives growth in your business? So for us, I would say if we do that, let’s say, Pipeline X-Ray. And we actually did. We’ve been in business for almost 10 years now. And if you would do a Pipeline X-Ray, the number one driver of leads and new clients are, let’s just call it, Condor champions that switch jobs. And not switch jobs that were working with us, but they were working with one of our clients. And they worked with us, and they saw the work that we did, and they ended up moving to another agency within the same space, for example, or in B2B services, or even if it’s something a little more niche like tech services, which is an area that we also specialize in. And then they say, “I already worked with Condor for either measurement or paid search campaigns or demand generation in general, and I like working with them, so they’re going to call us.” And then some people, they switch multiple jobs. So embracing that and obviously using that to fuel and to focus even more on doing a great job and maintaining relationships with people, obviously most importantly while they’re a client, but even if they switch, not forgetting about them. That has been the main driver. Obviously, we don’t want to only rely on that. And then more recently, we’ve given more structure to our own sales and marketing department for that. And, for example, we closed a client that came via a paid search campaign. But that’s still… We haven’t scaled those yet. We’re still making sure. We’re still in that measurement phase where, yeah, we’re putting budget behind a few things and some of them seem to be working better, but not yet at the point of truly scaling that. We’re ultimately also a relatively small firm, which obviously makes decisions differently than if you are, let’s say, a mid-market or enterprise. But those, I would say, in order of importance, have been our three main drivers of growth: the champions that switch jobs, number one, and then I would say secondarily, paid media and events. Yeah. So these are the three things. And what about the events? Why do you put events as a third? I’m just thinking that you’re a B2B company and trust-based. Would events not be better than paid media? I would say they’re not mutually exclusive. Actually, they rely a lot on each other. And honestly, for us, I just put number two and three, but I would say they’re tied for second, and then the other ones are four and below. And the reason why I think events are important, what we’re seeing not only for us but for our clients, the outbound activity is really saturated. I think cold email or cold outreach in general, because it used to be via email, now it’s on LinkedIn as well, it’s really, really saturated. It’s really hard to be heard or to get a reply with cold outreach in general. Paid media, you can be a little bit more creative because you have visuals. Whether that’s video that hopefully you can leverage. So I’m a believer in paid media more than the actual cold outreach via email or LinkedIn. But then the events are also great precisely because of that. People are saturated and tired of being bombarded with messages from people they don’t know. Whereas especially after COVID, people started going back to both the office and simply going out there. It doesn’t have to be a big yearly conference. It can be just a dinner where you invite four or five people and talk about certain topics or any in-person activity. Well, I mean, a webinar can even be considered an event. Where you’re educating your audience on certain things. And especially if your target audience is more on the manager side or below, or director and below, webinars can be an avenue. But to answer your question, I think that personal connection is really, really powerful. And people forgot about it with, let’s say, the boom of cold outreach and digital and now AI, and especially during COVID. But definitely in the last few years, we’ve seen not only that people are more willing or prefer to meet people in person, but we see that in the data as well, We see cold outreach campaigns that are bringing less and less results. And then when you connect in person. Especially high-ticket. I also give this example. If you’re selling B2B services, which are usually high-ticket. It’s a project of either $50,000. It could be an engagement of $2 million over two years. Obviously, you want to know the company, but you also want to trust the human that is going to deliver on that promise. I always give the example: If you’re selling an iPhone cover that costs $25, yeah, maybe you can get away with a pretty image on an Instagram ad. You click and you buy. Boom. Great. You can fully leverage digital for that. But when you’re selling a cloud migration project of a million dollars, you’re going to want to talk to somebody, trust that person, dig in a little bit more, have a couple of meetings. So it’s more complex. So in particular for those instances, that’s why I think the personal connection, that it’s even better if it starts at an event, or however you manage to do it, helps a lot. So for Condor, do you make a distinction between B2B companies and B2C, and where you can help them the most? Yeah. We have a couple of direct-to-consumer clients, but the majority of the work that we do is either for B2B or, if not B2B, it’s lead generation. So e-commerce, for example, is a different world. E-commerce, as I mentioned, depending on what you buy, it’s immediate. You track things. You have a platform like Shopify or something similar. It’s a whole different world. Whereas that’s immediate, and you can see everything, and it’s all kind of automated and based on an inventory. Whereas in either B2B services or lead generation, it’s more about, okay, what happens after the initial action, after that initial either visit or conversion. Because a conversion is not a purchase. In e-commerce, in direct-to-consumer, in the example that I gave you, we made it. We sold the cover. That’s our business. In here, it’s like, okay, they downloaded a white paper. Or they signed up for a webinar, but that’s only the first step of a long journey of closing, again, a $1 million service client. So we specialize in that. In what needs to happen, not only to generate the initial raise of hand, but to make sure that the people that raise their hands are the right people, because otherwise they’re not going to end up buying. And ultimately, the entire process of lead generated to client closed. Which is a big universe in itself. So that’s where we want to focus. So you basically help them not just to get the leads but to convert the leads and turn them into a client. Right. Right. So Carlos, if you had a magic wand and you could fix just one thing in your business in the next 12 months, what would you use the magic wand for? I would say accelerate. I would accelerate by five or 10 years the structure and how mature our sales and marketing team is. I would love to wake up tomorrow morning and have a team of five people in the marketing department and five people dedicated to sales, with SDRs and a sales leader, that is already generating, that we’re closing 10 clients a month. So I would say that’s… But that obviously takes time. And you want to go one step at a time, otherwise, to prove ROI and to grow without, let’s say, wasting unproven budget or wasting money. But I think a lot of owners—I don’t know if it’s a cheap answer—but I think a lot of owners would probably answer the same thing. Yeah. So essentially what you need to do is you need to have scalable sales and marketing so that you can just add people and it’s going to—it’s like a coin-operated system, right? Yeah. Yeah. So if the listeners would like to go through that process and they would like to understand, okay, how do we map our leads, where they come from, evaluate it, and then adjust and fix and scale, where can they learn more and how can they connect with you? Yeah. So if they go to our website, it’s condoragency.com. Condor, like the bird. There are some options there on how to work with us or even some information, even if they want to try and do it by themselves, right? Again, what I mentioned earlier, the Pipeline X-Ray. It’s a quick project that we do to get to that, where you can start seeing some valuable information to take action on fairly quickly. We can get that done in a couple of weeks, the exercise of the Pipeline X-Ray, so then you know what to start adjusting and fixing. And obviously, you can contact me directly also on LinkedIn or via our website. I’m glad to obviously have a subsequent conversation and see if and how we can help. Awesome. So if you are out there and you want to improve your sales and marketing, then you have to start with the Pipeline X-Ray because you are getting leads, you just don’t know where they are from and how effective they are, and then how you tweak the process so that you’re putting energy behind the more effective ones and readjusting your budget, and then fix the gaps. So Carlos can help you with that, right? So make sure you reach out to Condor and get the X-Ray. So Carlos, thanks for coming. And if you enjoyed this conversation, then make sure you subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, because every week I bring a couple of entrepreneurs who are sharing their frameworks with you. So Carlos, thanks for coming, and thanks for listening. Important Links: Carlos’s LinkedIn Carlos’s website

https://youtu.be/B9j1nlRifHM Alex Fernandez, CEO of Synergy Orthopedic Specialists, is driven by a mission to help physicians Build a Multi-Site Medical Practice that creates wealth, equity, and independence beyond their personal labor. By bringing independent physicians together, building scalable organizations, and expanding access to integrated services, Alex helps doctors operate as entrepreneurs while delivering a more convenient and cost-effective patient experience. In this conversation, Alex introduces The Multi-Site Scaling Framework—Visualize Your Target EBITDA, Align With Your Partners, Remove Yourself From the Center, Build Systems, and Build Margin Around Your Core Business. He explains why starting with the desired enterprise value creates a clearer path for growth, why alignment must be a gate for every partnership or acquisition, and how strong systems allow a business to operate without depending on its founder. Alex also shares how vertical integration, company culture, geographic expansion, and AI-assisted processes can improve profitability while preserving independent medical care. — Build a Multi-Site Medical Practice with Alex Fernandez Good day, dear listeners. Steve Preda here with the Management Blueprint Podcast, and welcome Alejandro “Alex” Fernandez, the CEO of Synergy Orthopedic Specialists, a team of surgeons and specialists that believes in providing patients with an integrated approach to musculoskeletal—I’m glad I could pronounce this—medical care through 15 locations throughout San Diego. Alex, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. I’ve enjoyed your show, and I’m happy to be here. Well, I’m always interested when I meet with medical provider companies or CEOs who have been doctors, because I grew up in a family of two doctors, and so I was exposed to some of the challenges of being a doctor and running a hospital. So that’s going to be interesting. So my favorite question that I ask recently to all our founders is, what is your personal why, and how are you manifesting it in your practice and in your business? Yeah, for sure. And so my why, as you put it, comes from where I started. I actually don’t come from a family of physicians. I started not where I ended up. I’m a son of Cuban immigrants. My parents fled Castro in the ’60s, and I was born in Puerto Rico. Later on, my family took a lot of our family in the Mariel boatlift in 1981 and took hundreds of people out of Cuba. But in reality, the concept or the reality is that my parents didn’t have a lot of money. They had some connections, but they believed that I should have a college education. But I had to work my way through eight years of college to get my bachelor’s. So I landed in healthcare as an accident. It was a small medical practice. I was basically doing front desk and medical records, and then later on learned how to do the billing, all by hand at that time. There were no electronic medical records. And I started basically at the front desk, and I watched something that I never really forgot, which is, you have these brilliant physicians, people that can diagnose patients and help them and cure them, but when it came to business, they were never taught anything about business. So this is where I believe I have generated value over the years: basically, built companies that actually create wealth, and the wealth for the physicians in particular. Share on X I think physicians are very entrepreneurial. At least that’s the idea to begin with, is, “I’m going to go into the practice of medicine and have my own business.” But somewhere along the line, the business becomes almost like an ATM machine. It’s no different than any other entrepreneur that starts a business. They are the business. Without them, if they go away for a couple of days, the business doesn’t make any money, and they don’t really know how to do that. So what I’ve done over the years is I have gotten smaller groups of physicians to come together, form larger organizations, larger groups, and eventually built larger private businesses that can have EBITDA, equity earnings that can basically provide some additional wealth. Particularly, I try to help them think of themselves as capitalists, not as day laborers. Because in reality, in most businesses, and particularly physicians, they’re cranking the wheel, and the more they produce, the more they work, the more they earn. But in some cases, they don’t understand how to get away from that. How to earn from all the other things that they control. Because physicians do control 80% of the spend in healthcare but earn probably no more than 5% of it. Wow. That is shocking. So they’re not using the leverage properly, probably. Yeah. Sometimes they know it’s there, but physicians in general are risk-averse. Just starting their own business is hard enough. Then having to figure out how to capitalize from all the levers that they have, that’s completely different. And they’re no different than, I would say, lawyers or accountants that start a small business. At some point in time, you have to figure out, how do you make the business big enough that it operates and works without you? Yeah, I love that. I love that. And what makes you feel strongly for physicians? Well, particularly independent physicians, I think it’s a dying breed. Years ago, I would hear the stories of my parents where they’d say, “Hey, we took you to the pediatrician,” and my dad would be friends with the OB-GYN that took care of my mom and the pediatrician. And I remember them naming them by first name or even meeting them at the social club. But nowadays, it’s very transactional. It’s very fast. There’s no connection. So I think that’s why there’s been this whole surgence of concierge physicians where you pay extra. Because in truth, in order to make a living, the business of healthcare is compressed by downward pressures from the government and from other institutions that say, “We’re going to pay you less, but you have to have a significant amount of compliance, and you have to spend more money on this, and you have to do that.” And then at the same time, the cost of living goes up. The employees need to make more money. Your rent goes up. The supplies continue to increase. So you have the static or lower reimbursement from the different payers, whether it’s Medicare, the government, or private institutions, and then an increase of expenses happening. That’s very strange to any business. In any other business, you say, “Well, if my costs go up, I increase my prices, and then maybe my margins are a little bit less, but I still have a significant margin.” In healthcare, you almost have to just work more in order to generate more revenue, and the expenses hopefully will increment a little bit more, but your earnings will be the same or less. So it’s a very tough situation for an independent physician. That’s why more and more, especially physicians coming out of training, look for jobs with health systems, with the Kaisers of the world or the different large institutions in the United States, so that way they can go ahead and just go to work and take care of patients and not worry about the business of healthcare. Yeah. But then these big hospitals turn into bureaucracies, and then they still have to worry about that in a different way. And that’s personally the second part to that question you asked me. That’s why I like working with physicians and not necessarily with health systems. I’ve never held a job with a hospital. Not that I haven’t wanted to. It’s just, I think the nature of the bureaucracy of a health system creates some things that I’m not personally interested in. Yeah. Well, I can see that. So Alex, this is a podcast of frameworks, as you know. So what’s a framework that has helped you build your business, maybe generate an insight, understand situations, maybe influence these physicians to come together in your roll-ups? Whatever framework you developed, could you share something with our listeners? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Most owners in a business—and I’ll talk in generic terms. I’ll try to make sure I don’t use any slang for healthcare—but most businesses build their business for income. They want to make income for their families, for themselves. They want to be able to take care of the people that they’re with. But they don’t really think about it from a perspective of, “Let me build a business that can multiply.” Maybe they want to, but in a lot of areas, it’s just hard for them. I actually grew up in the bridal business. My parents had bridal stores. They basically did wedding packages, and that’s the business that I grew up in. Every summer, I would go and do the cash register or help rent tuxedos and things like that, or do filing and bookkeeping. So that’s where my entrepreneurial spirit comes from. It’s my parents. But I always saw them where maybe they built one or a couple stores, two, three stores, and they would kind of stop there. But I think I learned a lot from my dad in particular around multi-site operations in a retail industry, and I took that back into the healthcare business. So one of the first things I think that a business owner has to do is they have to underwrite their own exit first. Share on X They have to think of growth and particularly of the value of the business if they were ever going to sell it. Figure out what your EBITDA or enterprise value is going to be, and then go from there. Then make the alignments first, but don’t make it the goal. Most people chase the volume, the customers, more locations, more deals, spend years fixing what they bolted on in order to flip it, but they don’t really take the time to align it. So I think the client, the partnership, the acquisition—you have to figure all that out at the beginning and then fix it later. If I run into an acquisition that we’re looking at, and I don’t see the alignment from whoever I’m going to partner up with, I know it’s going to be a deal that’s going to go bad eventually. We all have to be thinking the same way. Then the other thing, like I already mentioned this a couple of times, but you have to take yourself out of the center. If you’re the CEO, you’re the business owner, and the business depends on you—you can’t go on your two- or three-week vacation to Europe or wherever you want to go, and when you come back, the business is in disarray or didn’t survive—you don’t really have a business. You just have a job that costs you a lot of money to maintain. I think that’s where operating systems earn their keep. I haven’t really run the EOS program, but I’ve read the book, and I really like the idea of the scorecards, and I used it particularly when I came to this opportunity in San Diego. Getting everybody to row in the same direction. A business that runs with a founder and a single thing, it’s one that won’t get very far. But on the other hand, if the founder figures out a way to build systems around them and bring in the right people, that’s going to make the business way more successful. And the last one I would say is own the margin around your core. Don’t just sell the core service. Figure out what else you have. And I think in healthcare in particular, I was mentioning this: doctors control a significant amount of what happens to a patient, but they don’t figure out ways to vertically integrate the business to have access or have the opportunity to earn some revenue and some earnings from the actual business they refer to. So what I’ve done over the years, particularly in gastroenterology, I grew a medical practice of gastroenterologists. A couple of them came together, and it was around 50 million in revenue when I came in. And one of the first things I started doing was figuring out, how do we add, let’s say, imaging services? So we added CT. How do we add infusion services? Because back then, there were some significant drugs that were coming into market around infusion. But later on, we said, “Hey, we have an investment in an ASC, but why don’t we do the investment so the investment’s part of the group? So all the doctors can benefit from that. And when we actually equitize the business in the future, that could be part of our exit if there’s equity there.” And then the next question was, “Well, why don’t we sell the prep that we give people before they get the colonoscopy?” So we got licensing around pharmacy, and then we said, “Well, what about anesthesia? What about pathology?” And so on and so on. So when I went to New York City and I ran a dermatology group, we built a path lab for the derms. When I came here to the orthopedic group, we had PT locations, expanded to multiple PT locations, improved the contracts around durable medical equipment, the bracing, even added anesthesia and started our own ambulatory surgical center. So always trying to figure out, how can you vertically integrate the business to try to capture as much as you can from the client that’s in front of you? Not only just from a money perspective, but also from an experience perspective, being able to provide it all under one roof and being able to give the patient, the customer, a great experience. You want to provide outstanding medical care. Quality medical care is kind of like a base. If you go to a doctor, you expect to get better. But what we see in healthcare a lot is that people don’t think about it. Like, in our offices, we say, “Thank you for choosing Synergy Orthopedics.” We know patients have a choice, so we have to develop a model that allows the patient to say, “Hey, I want to go here because these guys have it all under one roof.” But more importantly, that’s typically what the hospitals have. But hospitals charge for the same thing I provide two and three times more because they have a different type of leverage with the contracts. So I always say, “Why did the duck cross the road? Oh, because they went from the hospital to the ambulatory surgical center to get a colonoscopy to save 700 bucks.” I mean, it’s literally that simple. And I don’t think patients in general know that, but I think the doctors have a great opportunity to control the delivery system, provide a great experience for the patients, and at the same time, make some money from things that they don’t physically have to do. They can hire the physical therapist, et cetera. Yeah. Okay, so that’s great. So what I’m hearing, the framework is: think of growth first—what’s the EBITDA you want? Then create alignment, take yourself out of the center, build systems, and build margin around your core business. So that’s wonderful. Now, step two, I’m not 100% clear on. So you said make alignment with partners, but don’t make it the goal. What do you mean by that? Well, because particularly I’ve been involved in private equity medical groups. So with private equity, you have cash, you have leverage, so you can go and buy, buy, buy, buy. In private equity, to a degree, they want growth. But I’ve been in deals where the thesis was, for example, we’re all going to be rowing in the same direction with the same flag, same brand, and we’re going to transfer from having—there were four medical groups, so four different, distinct medical groups—and we’re putting them together under what’s called a management services organization, a management company, and basically form one larger group. But that was never aligned because the doctors, in their head, said, “You’re acquiring me, so you’re buying this magnificent, outstanding business. Now why do you want to change my electronic medical records? Why do you want to change the way we do our, let’s say, revenue cycle management or billing? Why do you want to change our brand? Our brand’s fantastic.” Even though they were all called Dermatology blah, blah, blah, something and something. So you have to make sure that the people that you’re going to bring on board, whether it’s through acquisition, merger, or just employment, that they really believe in your story, that they believe in the core vision of the business. Not just try to put people in there and make more deals, get more locations, spend more years, and then you put all these things together and you bolt them up, but you spend more time trying to fix it. In my Gastro Health and in the ortho business, we always started with, “Let’s make sure we have our house in order before we go out and start growing the organization and adding more to what we have.” The last thing you want to do is add more and then find out that you have to spend more time fixing it. No, that makes sense. But then you qualified it. You said, “Don’t make it the goal. Don’t make alignment the goal.” So how does it become the goal? What’s the risk there? So no, make it the gate, not the goal. Meaning, alignment is extremely important, but you want the alignment to be the one thing that puts you together. But at the end, everybody has to be buying into the idea. It’s not the only goal. Their goal is also money. The goal is growth. But it has to be one of the key things. In healthcare, I tend to think, and particularly with private equity, that’s not perceived. It’s more about getting deals done. Yeah. They don’t care about the mission. They don’t care about the vision, the alignment. I think they do. In their thesis, they do, and they want it. But it’s kind of like, at the end, you’re looking at this business. They want to sell, you want to buy, you have money, they want money, and sometimes it’s just easier to say, “Well, we can grow from $30 million to $60 million, from $10 million of EBITDA to $20 million of EBITDA. We’re going to get, instead of a 10 multiple, we’re going to get a 15 multiple.” So sometimes that gets in the way. And I would say, by the way, I worked with great and fantastic private equity firms, so I’m not saying they all think that way. But for sure, the perception is that they’re going to go in and try to make deals happen because they do have an end goal. Their end goal is to their investors that gave them funds, that they told them they were going to get them a four-, five-, seven-times multiple on their investment. So in your own business, Synergy Orthopedic Specialists, is this a private equity-funded business or is it bootstrapped? No. No, it’s bootstrapped. The physicians, when I came on board—at that time, I started with them six years ago in 2020, and the market was really hot still, ’21, ’22, ’23, and then the interest rates went up, and then things have softened. I think also they got softened for what we’ve been discussing earlier. There’s been a lot of deals that have been done where acquisitions were done in multiple states. There’s not a lot of synergy or a lot of things that were worked out to try to make sure that the organization was working together, the multiple organizations that were acquired. And the idea was, if we buy four million-dollar businesses, they will be, instead of an eight-times multiple, they’ll be a 10- or 12-times multiple. So I think there’s a lot of deals that are stuck in the marketplace right now, and the groups are trying to figure out how to evolve the organization after five, six, seven years from, “Hey, we let you alone. We let you be. But now we need to start integrating. Now we have to start building an enterprise. Now we have to start building a real platform.” And I think that the organizations that did that earlier have been able to exit and done a much better multiple and growth. And also the key is, in these transactions where people get together, a lot of times it’s all about the fun. “Hey, we go out to dinner, and everybody’s well, and everybody’s happy, and how much money we’re going to make,” and blah, blah. But nobody really asks the tough questions, or some people do because they actually don’t want the deals to get done. But I think it comes from the buyer. The buyer needs to be very upfront with what they want to accomplish with a transaction, whether, again, a merger or an acquisition. You want to make sure that you’re extremely transparent about what the end goal is going to be. And if the end goal is like, “Hey, I’m going to leave you alone for a year, but in a year and one day, your name’s going to change, your software’s going to change, your HR is going to change. And by that time, we’ll figure out about your staff, and we might probably cut 25% of your staff because you’re bloated, and we actually have to make you a little bit more fit and trim so you can actually be able to grow and provide better care to your patients.” So what I’m seeing is, it’s quite impressive. You have 15 locations, you have a huge service mix. You have, compared to the number of locations and service mix, a limited number of people. So how do you maintain the Synergy standard? And how do you manage this complexity with such low—low per— It took— How many people? Yeah, it’s—right. Yeah, I agree. It’s taken some time. Again, I wouldn’t say that it’s perfect. We’re always evolving, changing. I mean, I always say the only constant thing in healthcare is change. But it started with the company culture. When I first got here, there were four or five organizations that came together, and they were still using their old names. Synergy Orthopedics was like this little kind of byline under their business cards. It wasn’t really the brand. And then over time, we got people in the organization rowing in the same direction, using the same flag, and over time we started to dominate the market. We started to be perceived, and we are today, the largest independent medical orthopedic group in San Diego. So when people think of MSK, we take care of the hockey team, we take care of the soccer team, we take care of professional players. The larger organizations reach out to us about developing contracts, direct contracts to provide services to them. So that took a long time, but it started with building that company culture. And along the way, some people left. Some people just didn’t fit what we were trying to build. And it wasn’t just me. I didn’t do this by myself, of course. The reality was we built a team around what we were trying to create. Physicians, in this case, are the leaders. Physician leadership was there, and this is what they wanted as well. So I think, yes, when we’re now in other counties we’re in Riverside County, so we’re north of San Diego. We’re all the way to Palm Desert and looking to grow into Orange County and L.A. County eventually. So the goal is also in growth, and size allows leverage and negotiation power with the different payers. And that’s very different than in other industries where you have a payer, let’s say Blue Shield or Anthem or United, that kind of controls how you’re going to provide service, how much they’re going to pay you, et cetera, et cetera. So the only way to really have any type of seat at the table is that your organization has to be large enough and a market leader and basically be something, or an organization, that they can’t say no to, that they want to have in their network. So that’s how we’ve been able to do this over the last five, six years now. So what drives the growth? Is it the acquisitions? Is it geographic expansion? Is it payers refer business? What’s the driver? All of it. You have to do everything. It’s like that movie, Everything Everywhere All at Once. It’s like you have to do everything. We started by first creating the brand and the company culture, expanding that brand and company culture by figuring out who having the right seats on the bus, making sure the right people that wanted to be with us were there. And then we said, “Okay, we don’t have a spine program. Let’s figure out how we recruit a spine doctor. Let’s figure out how we recruit a pain doctor. Let’s get a foot and ankle specialist because we don’t have one. Let’s expand our sports medicine program.” So we took over a fellowship training program in San Diego that was probably going to expire, and then we took it over and continued the legacy of the physician that started it from the beginning. We’ve done some mergers. We’ve done some acquisitions. We’ve done some new locations. We’ve expanded our physical therapy footprint. We built out an ambulatory surgical center. That was a big endeavor. These things cost millions and millions of dollars. Just in construction alone, it was like $600… I think our overall investment’s somewhere around $12, $15 million, so highly leveraged. We brought in a partner, a national partner, to help us run and fund the enterprise. We started an anesthesia division. So I would say you have to do everything, and all of it together, as time goes by, creates that vision. As long as you have the vision, like I said, the beginning thing is you have to start with the end goal. And the end goal is we want to build a business that’s independent. That’s our goal. We don’t want to be sold or be part of the hospital system. So you have to build the end goal, work through the process, grow it, and do all the things at the same time, which is extremely hard, I would say. Yeah. This is fascinating. So you have a lot of complexity. You have a lot of locations, a lot of services, 50 providers. I mean, sometimes doctors can be cats, hard to manage them. Eagles, eagles. I always say, try to get eagles to fly in a straight line. Impossible. Yeah. But if you had a magic wand and you could fix one thing in your business in the next 12 months, what would it be? I will be honest, it’s expenses. Expenses can and I’ve talked about this before the pressures in the healthcare industry really are driven around expenses. We just got an increase in minimum wage in healthcare, specifically in California, where a physician practice now has to pay $23 an hour for a minimum-wage job, where minimum wage is almost half of that if you’re in any other industry. So I think everybody should make more than $23, particularly in San Diego. It’s a very expensive place to live. But I think it’s more around the pressures that are put on the industry, but the levers are not there to increase revenue to be able to support or subsidize those expenses. So, for all intents and purposes, we’re looking at how we increase revenue by keeping expenses the same, or fixed, or a little bit higher than what they are, by augmenting with AI, like every other industry is doing. Figuring out whether it’s using AI in your MRI to be able to process the imaging faster, clearer, better, and be able to add three or four more patients a day. That profit goes straight to the bottom line. It might be before we had people that are scribes that basically did the documentation of the history, the notes, and the medical records. Now doctors are using—well, they’ve been using voice recognition for a while—but now you’re doing ambient AI, where basically it’s listening to the conversation with the patient, of course with the patient’s approval, and being able to document all that information into the record much faster, quicker, better, and more precise. And so on. Answering the phones, being able to—when the patient gets statements, we typically send out statements every two weeks. But when we send them, we send thousands of statements, so we get thousands of phone calls. You can’t get all those phone calls when somebody says, “I owe $50, and I don’t know why,” and being able to have an AI that tells you, “The $50 is because you had a copayment or you had a deductible, and it’s due to your insurance program with whatever the insurance is.” And they’re like, “Oh, okay.” “You want to pay that right now?” “Yes.” It sends you a text to your phone, qualifies who you are, you click on it, you put your payment information. The information goes in, the payment gets posted. Nobody got involved. AI took care of the whole process. So we’re trying to figure out how to assist the staff without having to let go. At least my intent is not to let go of people. My intent is to try to make sure that we do the best job possible and use AI to augment the process, not to replace the staff. I get very worried, in general, about what’s going on with AI as an industry, where people are saying, “Well, I use it as my assistant. I use it as this.” Well, I started at the front desk. If there are no front desk jobs, how could I have been CEO of this multimillion-dollar organization if I didn’t get a foot in the door to begin with? So I feel very worried for my kids that are growing up. One’s studying to be a psychologist, the other one’s in marketing. How are they going to learn and grow in an industry or a business if they can’t get their foot in the door? Yeah. That is a concern. I don’t know if we can fix it, but I’m worried about it too. So Alex, who would you like to listen to this podcast and to take action? And what kind of action should they take? Well, I think it’s generic. I always say, I have an MBA in healthcare administration, but I could have gone and done any type of business. Like I said to you, I grew up in the retail industry. So I think it’s more around, if you’re an entrepreneur and you have talent and you’ve worked really hard at doing something, you have to figure out how to hire the right people so that they can do a job that maybe you don’t know how to do, how to scale up a business by investing in it, making sure you don’t look at your business as an ATM machine or a salary that pays you every week or every period of time, but look at it as you’re an entrepreneur, a capitalist. You’re building an organization. You’re providing jobs for people. But at the end, the business has to give you more than your salary. There has to be equity in the enterprise, and that’s the money you’ll be able to use to maybe have leverage or to use in order to add that next location or look at what’s the next opportunity, whether you’re, again, a doctor or you’re running a retail organization that wants to have multiple locations. The key is, think of the end goal. And the end goal, not necessarily that you’re going to sell, but what is it going to be? What is the business that you want to have valued at, and how have they grown? Look and listen to other people like yourself, Steve, and all the different things that you do in regard to building that journey of the business, and figure out how to take the next step and the next step and the next step. It doesn’t happen overnight. You don’t get from a $50 million company to a $150 million company. It took me seven years to get there. But it’s done by augmenting and adding features and adding services, but doing it very intelligently, thinking it through, not just adding it for the sake of adding it, then, like I said before, having to bolt it on and try to fix more of the problems, creating more problems. No. Fix your house, figure out where you’re at, make sure it’s earning equity. Maybe you have to reprice. Maybe you have to figure out how the business needs to run a little bit nimbler. Maybe you have to use technology, whether it’s AI answering the phone because you’re the guy that—you have a pizza shop. Why do you have to have people answering? Have the AI take the order, have the AI tell people to go to the website, and so on, so you can have pizzas going out of your store every five minutes. So for sure, there are great opportunities. And if you’re a business owner, I want you to think that you can. It’s not impossible. It can be done. You don’t need an MBA. You just need to work hard and think it through and come up with a business plan and an idea on how you want to get there. Yeah. Well, this is very inspiring. So if you are a founder, you’re running a business, or you’re about to start a business, look at what Alex has done. He was a son of Cuban immigrants, came to this country, built from nothing a 15-location, 50-provider medical group, and works with private equity, advises companies as well. Follow his example. So Alex Fernandez, thank you for sharing your wisdom on the show. And if you’re listening and you enjoyed this conversation, stay tuned because I have a couple of exciting entrepreneurs every week who come on the show and share their secrets and frameworks with you. So thanks for coming, Alex, and thank you for listening. Important Links: Alex’s LinkedIn Alex’s website