Podcast - SURF MASTERY

142 Surfing Is Meant to Be Experienced: Lisa Davidson on Fear, Progress, and Self-Mastery Surf Mastery Podcast Download What if becoming a better surfer has less to do with technique, and more to do with how you handle fear, frustration, pressure, and the need to perform? Surfing has a way of exposing what’s happening between your ears. You can spend years improving your technique and still find yourself frustrated by slow progress, intimidated by bigger waves, comparing yourself to other surfers, or turning a bad session into a judgment about your ability. In this episode, surf psychologist Lisa Davidson explores the intersection of psychology, sport, and surfing. Lisa explains how shifting your relationship with performance can help you enjoy the ocean more, navigate fear more effectively, and keep progressing without making every session a test of your self-worth. In this episode, you’ll discover: How to shift your focus from outcomes you can’t control to the process, habits, and actions you can control. How to interrupt frustration and overthinking in the lineup by reconnecting with your senses and bringing yourself back into the present moment. Why making room for fun, play, and pressure-free surf sessions can strengthen your motivation, confidence, and long-term relationship with surfing. Press play to learn how to work with your mind, not against it, so you can handle fear and frustration, enjoy the process of improving, and experience more of what surfing has to offer. https://thesurfpsychologist.com/ https://www.instagram.com/thesurfpsychologist/ Transcript: SMP142LisaD Lisa: Yes, let's do it. Let's do it. Host: I wanted to start by just reading to you some of your own words. Oh, excellent. Says on, on your, on your w- on your website here- Mm ... uh, you're a licensed psychologist and hypnotherapist as well as a surfer. Um, mm-hmm. It, the, so the first paragraph you've written here, it says, "I didn't grow up surfing. I found the ocea- Yes ... "i found the ocean as an adult after years of studying the human mind and working in mental health with clinical neuropsychology and behavioral change. Lisa: But long before I ever picked up a board, two threads were already shaping my life: a deep curiosity about how the brain works, and a love for sport as a path to self-mastery." Yes. That's quite a paragraph. Right. Right. I guess you want me to comment on that. First, I wanna say that I'm actually not a clinical psychologist, so I'm not a licensed psychologist as that. But I do have my master's, and it's in clinical neuropsychology. That's what I focused on. Okay. So just a slight correction there. That line, I was working hard on that one. But it's, uh, it came to me when I was, thinking about, like, what is it that I actually do, you know? Like, what is it, what's the essence of the work that I wanna, or the services that I wanna provide for people, and what do I think is really fascinating about the intersection of, you know, therapy, you know, psychology and sports,, and, , how I wanna help people. Which is really sits right there. How can you get to know yourself and understand yourself and show up better for yourself in life, but through your sport, through mastering an activity, how does that help me see certain parts of myself and come into contact with certain parts of myself? And how can I, you know, tweak those parts, , to show up better and perform better, basically? Host: Okay, so, so your love for psychology and the human brain came before surfing. So- Yes ... is it something that you studied after high school? Or during high school? Lisa: Yes. So I, , yeah, I didn't study it in high school, but I I started with my bachelor's in, when was that? Early 2000s. 2004 I might have started that my dad is a psychologist, I can add that. So that's... it's been... But I've always been a person who thinks a lot and wants to understand what other people, , are doing. But mainly from the perspective of, like, myself, my emotions, how, how I am being, , affected, met, you know, interact with other people, and to just, like, understand. But I think it comes from some- like, more from a philosophical point of view, as in, , how do I understand life? ... What is important in life in order to live a good one, a happy one, ? And what is even a happy life, ? Deep questions. Yes. So I would say it start, like if the thread started really early, it started, , reading and reading, 'Cause through, 'cause, , my love for literature has been with me , my entire life, and I think it's the stories of people and how we, uh, yeah, love and life through, through literature. And, and I also read a bunch of philosophy when I was young, you know, teenage years, to, to kind of- Delve into these questions Mm-hmm. Um- Hmm ... and then from there it grew into psychology as in like, and yeah, human behavior and how the brain works, 'cause I'm, you know, always been sort of a person who, the science-based and like these like, yeah, more interesting, like, or like quite hands-on and physical than more than philosophical, I guess. So- Yeah ... in neuropsychology, sort of the more that thread when it comes to psychology, I guess. I don't know. Okay. But it also shifted into more of a, you know, other things later in life that are perhaps less, less structured, less research less, and more holistic, and yeah. Mm-hmm. So. Well, be- before we get to surfing- Mm-hmm Host: at the end of that little paragraph I just read, it says, obviously a deep curiosity for how the brain works, you went into studying that. Yeah. But you also say here, and the, this is before you even discovered surfing, a love for sport as a path to self-mastery, and then you go on to mention horse riding. Lisa: Now, is ho- Yes ... is horse, is, was horse riding sort of, h- h- how does- That was the sport. Yeah. That was that thread, yes. Exactly. Yeah, I, uh, I pretty much grew up on, on horseback. I started when I was eight. I had my own pony a- and all of it, you know? So from the age of 10, I think I spent every day in the stables, training, trying to, , qualify for the Sw- you know, Swedish championships and the European championships and things like that. , So that was the work that I was putting. It was more important than anything else in my life, ? I had my eyes set on the Olympics. That's where I wanted to go. , But yeah, it, I didn't And you mentioned your father had a history of psychology. , Was he helping you in that regards as y- when you were involved with horses? , Was h- was he inkling towards sports psychology at all, or was that something you discovered yourself, or? No, that was me, myself. No, he's always been more from the, social, aspect of things, working with this, social system in Sweden and working with, , foster families and children and adolescents placed out of the s- home, institutions and things like that. So always been coming at it from much more of that side, and disabilities and, a- and things like that, much more than the self-mastery sort of, you know, performance sports side of things. He's always been into sports, but, , yeah, work-wise. And that's also the work that we did, 'cause then later I, , worked for the family business, which was running those types of facilities and Work, yeah Okay, so you've been in the trenches a little bit, psychologically- Yes ... wise as well by the sounds. Yes, it's pretty, it's pretty tough work. It's, , you know, working with teenagers who, who are on the neur- you know, like neurodivergent teenagers who had horrible upbringings and situations in life, and then to, , get through to them, to support them and create, you know, wanting to create these changes in their lives that they are really struggling to do because of how they grew up and also the, the neurological compositions they have that creates, makes life more challenging as well. So that's, uh, that's really, really hard work. And, and from there to, to work with, with surfers, it feels a bit of a, it's a bit of a breeze. It's like, it's a bit lighter, which is, uh, what I like. Yeah, I don't, I don't wanna work that clinically anymore. , I've done enough of it. I've done my years. Yes. , Host: Yeah. So when did surfing come into the picture? Lisa: It came in my early 30s. , I did a semester, or about a year of studies. I did one semester of studies, but I did a, a year in San Diego, San Diego, California, and tried a bit of surfing then. And then a few, like one or two, three years later after I was there for school, I kept coming back 'cause I really loved, I loved the life in San Diego and I was, you know, searching for a way to not be in Sweden pretty much. And I spent one summer there and decided to, to learn to surf. And then I stuck with it. I guess I found that, that thing in my life to pour my energy and self-mastery into, you know? It's, , I believe also that is one of the bigger corner stores, cornerstones of the good life is to have something that is not your, your relationships, and that is not your work, and that is, , for you, something to, that you can pour energy and, and love and meaning into. Host: Yeah. So it was horses. Lisa: Exactly. It was horses, and then it was, triathlons for a little bit, and then surfing. Mm-hmm. But, I think the triathlons was a little bit, , coexisting with the surfing while I was sort of landlocked in Sweden for a while. Or I wasn't landlocked, like it's close to the ocean, but there's no waves that are- Mm-hmm particularly interesting. A lot of Swedish surfers would be upset with me for saying that, but All three of them. Yes, exactly. , But I think for a long time there was a, there was a big gap when I didn't really, you know, um, commit to any sport because it was basically from late high school years and those first years of uni and education and all of that. I didn't really have that because basically my social life , and studies took up, and work took up all of that, 'cause, 'cause I pretty much worked continuously through my studies as well. So then I didn't have room for it. But it was, , I did lack that part in my life. It was too much, too much work and too much studies. It, it didn't go very well. Like ended up- Hmm ... you know, with burnout and all of those kinds of lovely things. Host: So. How, how far or how deep into your surfing journey did you realize that surfing was that thing that was gonna replace the, the horses, let's say? Lisa: I mean, I th- yeah, when I like consciously realized it, I was probably, you know, five years in or something, , because I just hadn't reflected on it from that perspective necessarily. , But I think people around me saw it and my family saw it way earlier. You know, like when you pack your bags and, and move to Bali and decide to, to live here, you know, really, really on the other side of the planet for, uh, surfing was the reason I picked here, you know. I was gonna move somewhere for sure, but yeah, that was the... , and when we sold our family business and I, I couldn't work for a year and, , 'cause I had a non-compete and everything. So then I was like, "Okay, let's see what I wanna do," and I just went on a round the world surf trip. So and that was pretty early. I think I'd only surfed for like one or like two, two years or something. And then obviously I wasn't living next to the... co- to surf, so I was one of those who only surfed when I traveled , and things like that. So- That kind of dedication, , was already there. Yeah. Host: How would you describe your current relationship to surfing in the ocean, and how has it evolved over the years? Lisa: . I mean, now it's also my work, right? So it gets a little bit more complicated when, when you mix in those elements, because it's no longer just for me. Like, there's elements of me being out there that sometimes feel like I'm, I'm in the office, you know? As in, like, um, watching for behaviors. I'm, I'm noticing things and I have thoughts about it and I'm like, "Oh, should I make a reel about that?" You know, like so it's not, it's not completely just, , that joy and freedom and personal pursuit for me. Like, it's a... Anymore. So I would say that's how it, uh, how it shifted into that, where it is that. And if we go to it more currently, as in, like, it's not my highest priority. My highest priority is my work and, and building my business, and then after that comes surf. So I still surf a bit, but I'm currently with it as in like, uh, I kinda just go to, yeah, to just get away a little bit, to have spent some time with myself and to be in the water and to move around. So I'm currently not in a, in a place where I'm, you know, trying to get a whole lot better or where I'm working on techniques or where it has that sort of place for me that's not very active. Like, that comes and goes a little bit for me. And, and when it goes, it goes into the place where it's, um, I would say recovery. , Where it gives me, um, you know, reconnects with myself and with, you know, being present a- and not, you know, distracted by all of these other things. So it's, then it becomes that balancing force in my life where I just get to take a sigh of, of relief and just be for a bit. And then I don't like to put the element of trying to get better or trying to perfect, trying to perform into that, you know? , So yeah. I would say that. It's there. , So you're, are, are you saying you're not trying to improve your surfing at the moment? No, not at the moment. But we're talking about, like, this will maybe go on for, like, a few weeks where that's not... But I still kind of, yeah, I'm not working super actively towards that, uh, technique wise. I am working on surfing, being comfortable with surfing bigger waves. So, but that is not, like, a... For me, that's not, like, a performance element. It's a, it's an element of, you know, self-regulation and, um, what else should I kind of... Yeah, it's more of a sort, yeah, more of the self-mastery than, I guess, like, how do I, how do I control my fear? How do I approach something consciously? So sure, there, there's still elements of pressure in, in showing up and doing all of this, but it's not so much like, "Oh, I need to get so much better at surfing." I know there's, there's still an element there of, um, getting better at something. So I would say that's kind of what I'm working on, but I'm taking it very slow with it because I can't, don't have the, the mental space to put a lot of energy into it, 'cause I'm putting a lot of energy into my work and building my business and- Mm Host: other things. Yeah. What, what's harder to read: the ocean or a horse? The ocean Lisa: Much harder ... yes. Are there, do you think there's similarities? Because the thing is with most sports- Mm ... the, the playground is static. Yeah. It's always the same. Yeah. Surfing is obviously it's never the same- Mm ... ever, in any way almost. Mm. And I, I imagine a horse sort of is somewhere in between? Yeah. It's probably somewhere in between. You're right. But I feel like I've always had a really good connection w- especially with my horse, you know? Like, I could arrive at the stables a- and, and my horse, pony knows it and comes galloping. You know, like, I show... You know. So there's, there's always been sort of a, deeper connection there when I can know and feel what's, what's going on, which can sound a little woo woo, but that's how I experi- that's my experience. So whether that's what that's based in, I don't know. , But yeah, of course. I would say for me the elements of that was more like, 'Cause, , it's not a machine. It's, it's a horse that, , gets injured and has, has its things, , and doesn't want certain days. So it's like more that, that element of surrendering to that a little bit, as in there's not all parts that you can control. , You don't... You can to s- more extent than you can control the ocean, but there's an element that you just have to accept and, and work with, you know? Mm. I think that's perhaps the, the biggest- Point, 'cause that also re- , relates back to yourself, right? As in how do I relate to that element, because I can't change it. You know? Like, I can't change the ocean, and I can't change my horse as much either. You know? Like, I can influence it a bit more than I can influence the ocean, but what I can really do is work on how do I relate to it. Do I keep getting frustrated every time the conditions aren't the way I want 'em to, or do I just do what I can, yeah, so managing your own expectations. Yeah. And- And manage how you relate and look at those things, because it's not, it's more than expectations, I would say. It's, yeah. Say, say more about that. It's more than- Well, I mean, expectations is sort of like, okay, I can't expect this or that, but it's also, like, how, how do I feel about the fact that I can't control certain things, what comes up in me when I can't really control the outcome of something, you know? There's a sense of vulnerability there, especially i- in a place where you're trying, if you're really trying to get better at something. And what does getting better at something , mean for you? And then that is sort of exposed in, in that, in that element. So I believe it, it hits, like, deeper notes sometimes. Host: Hmm. Yeah, so what does getting better mean for you? Lisa: For me, it's, that's a, a journey that's, evolved through all of this. In the beginning, and I think o- what, if we look at the horse part, I definitely had a very, very strong attachment between my results and how I felt about myself and who I was, and that, that extended into, academics and school and everything. , Results, it was everything. , If you're not delivering your shit, you know, like, you're not worth anything. Like, all of this work was for nothing and blah blah blah. Your whole life is, you can throw it in the bin, ? And so going from, from that into now, it still shows up for me, that sense of, oh, if I'm not g- good enough, like, I c- I can, you know, be a bit critical of myself and hard on myself, but not at all the same way I, I used to. And I am shifting. But for me, it was not necessar- with surfing, it wasn't necessarily as much as, , being able to surf really well, 'cause also I started in my 30s, so I know that I, I don't think I'll consider myself as ever being able to surf really well. But for me, it's more like how do I show up for it, If I really want something, do I put in the time? And so I- I'm more judgmental around myself i- in that, and, and also a little bit about when it comes to being tough and, and brave, , to charge. That's sort of more of a, a, an area where I can be a little bit hard on myself and look at it from a pers- performance sort of angle where I'm like, oh, not, not good enough. But I've also let go mostly of that, and, uh, then I lean into to the parts of, , the enjoyment of it. Like, why... 'Cause I'm not out there to become the best of the best. I am out there to work on things, to, to be in a process of trying to get better at something that's really hard, and every time I go, I am doing that. So, you know, there's a s- success just by, by going out, you know? Yeah, I love that. And you, you kind of already answered that question the way you said you were trying to, , learn to surf bigger waves. Mm. What's been your, your strongest barrier there? To going out surfing bigger waves? Oh, 'cause it's shit fucking scary. Like, I... is, you know, I had some experiences early, early on in my surf career when you don't really know better and you go out and you just get, like, pummeled and dragged and held under. And, like, there was a moment where I was like, ", I don't know if I'm gonna survive this," ? And if you've had an experience like that, that sticks with you a little bit. I'm worked a lot to, to, uh, not let that stop me, but it's still there to some point, you know? So sometimes I can get a little eh. , It's just scary, uh, for me, with the bigger waves, so. Good. But it's not, uh... Yeah, it's, uh... For me, that moment that really scares me, it's - I can tell you what the worst is. , If I'm sitting all the way out, , like I'm sitting as, you know, where the bigger waves are going to break, and it's a deep reef break or something, so I'm quite far out, and I'm sitting there and I see something that looks like this is the biggest thing that's come through and I'm feeling like I'm in the wrong spot, , that's the moment that hits me the worst. 'Cause that's exactly that, , retriggering from that time when I thought I might die, because , I was in California. It was much bigger than I, you know, and stronger than I'd realized it could ever be, , paddling out. And I was on a bigger board, so I couldn't duck dive it or anything, so I had such a hard time getting through the break. And I had to work so hard, so I was super gassed as I got out 'cause I finally made it, , out, ? And then , there's a rogue set, you know. Like, it's breaking further out, , and I'm just gotten out there just like... And then nope. Smashed, , and dragged. Dragged, dragged, dragged for, like, the whole set. And I was just like, "Oh my God. Where's the lifeguard? Do I need to call anyone?" You know? And so that's why that's the thing, right? Like, , when I see it on the horizon and I'm just like, "Ugh," ? That's all, Host: well, that's all contrasted by the desire to know what it feels like to actually ride a bigger wave. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's the hard part. That is the hard part. Yeah. I mean, for me, I don't necessarily want to ride it... Well, I want to, I want to be really comfortable in the bigger waves. Like, I don't wanna surf, like, super big waves or anything, but you know, like, six foot, seven foot, you know. So you get those, like, good solid waves, . I wanna be super comfortable in that. Like, I want that to feel like the three, four-foot waves feel for me now, where I'm just like... , i don't even have to think about it, you know? It's just that's where I wanna get to so that that is super comfortable. Now that's, like, on the upper limit of my, , tolerance. And so that's why I'm, I'm, you know, wanting to be comfortable in bigger waves, which means I need to go out in bigger conditions, so. Host: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. I think for most people, especially those listening to this podcast, it's not about- Yeah ... performance. It's not about surfing like a pro or anything. It's just about- No ... little progressions, uh- Hmm ... in your own way and just enjoying surfing more and becoming more skilled to be able to surf- Yeah ... different varying conditions, which is- Yeah ... essentially what we're offered, right? The ocean's always different. Yeah. Sometimes it's big, sometimes it's small, sometimes it's windy. Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I say to a lot of my clients, like, that , there's no, , real gain in just wanting to surf bigger waves to surf bigger waves. What you want is to be able to surf most of the conditions where you usually surf so that you're not limited in that sense. , It sucks if you can only surf, a few days a month because that's when, , you're getting the conditions that, that you're comfortable in. That's... You want to be able to surf 90% or something, 80, 90% of what's out there comfortably. Yeah. Perhaps. I mean, it's not everyone's goal, but I would think that that's like- Yeah It's a good one to have, . Host: When's, when's the last time you felt that fear when you were surfing because of the size of the waves? Lisa: Like full fear when I was like, "Shoot, I shouldn't have gone out today." Maybe. Oh, yeah. I think it was, I was in Uluwatu. It was last year. , It wasn't full panic or anything, but, like, I knew it was gonna be s- a little bit of a bigger day, but I knew I deci- like, I knew it wasn't going to be, like, dangerous for me to go out. So I had , consciously not looking at the waves. Like, I knew it was... , before I went in, I was just like, "It is what it is going to be out there." And I went out with a friend, so I was also like, "Okay," and, , "I'm not going to die." So sitting out there, and she's sitting, like, right where it's, , in the spot where it's breaking, and she's like, "Come over. Come over. It's fine. It's nothing. It's nothing." I was like, "Nope. I'm going to sit right here until a set has rolled through," like, out in the, in the channel. And then of course there's a giant set coming in, and I'm just like... And she's getting smashed, and I was just like, "That's right. That's why I'm not sitting with you." But I was, like, paddling for the horizon, just like, "Ah, get out." And then, and then, like, I sat, but then I was like, "Okay. Let me just sit here and get okay in these conditions. , Work a little bit on just, regulating myself in that." So I sat there for a little bit, and then after maybe 20 minutes, half an hour, I was just like, "Okay. Now I've done enough of, of this work of trying to... You know, learning to be okay in this, and I feel good. I'm happy. It's time to go in." And then I just, , paddled to get in, in, in, and, and then just some white water in, and I was just like, "Nope." Went up and had a coconut, watched her get smashed a little bit more, and then, yeah. Mm. I think that was the last time I had a little bit of that, "Eh." Host: Would it be fair to say that that was a success? Lisa: Um... I mean, I, I, I don't remember it as a, as a bad moment or anything in the way I, , pivoted. I, I had... I think I expected myself to, you know, maybe go for a few waves. So I think looking, if I'd looked at it critically from a, a sort of like an exercise in trying to, to accomplish something, I would say that it was a failure, but that isn't because of what I did out there, it's because I didn't plan that very well, you know? I didn't have a, a, a great strategy for it, as in like if I really wanted to, work on being okay out there, I would've definitely, I should have looked at the conditions first so that I knew whether I was, that was going to be the case or whether I was gonna be able to surf something, and then had, yeah, more of a plan. But I really wanted to go out because I promised my friend I was gonna go out on a bigger day with her at Uluwatu, , and I was just, and I knew that I needed to blindfold myself in order to actually get out there. So I think I, I was definitely I knew I was pushing the envelope a little bit i- in that, , sense, uh, in that I was putting myself in the risk of, , getting overwhelmed. So I think I, uh, from a strategic point of view, I would've, uh, been a little bit more You know, planning it. It, 'cause, it, the thing is, had I known exactly how big it was when I was gonna paddle out, I could've, you know, with that expectation, I would've been more calm with it, because I would've like, "Okay, this is what's happening," you know? , And made the conscious choice to go out in it, rather than having to like realize that when I'm out there, like, "No, I'm not surfing today, I am just handling these conditions." , But, yeah. , Host: Which is what you did. You said you managed to s- get out the back and find a sense of calmness- Lisa: Yeah, yeah so. I, I did. I did. So from like, from like how I went, yeah, sure, it was, it wasn't, it wasn't a failure. I mean, I also don't believe in neither success or failure. Um, but um- Host: Oh. That's interesting. Yes. Right. Let's go into that. Lisa: Well, yes. So, well, first of all, yeah, failure, because , what is... If we look at that, most people think that's, that's you putting, you know, uh, saying that something is good or something is bad, , relating back to your, to yourself. , And it, m- it isn't, you know? 'Cause it's not static, you know? Like, if, if you don't, if you go out there and you don't achieve, uh, what you wanted to achieve, or your, y- the result, if you're in a competition, wasn't as good as, as you wanted it to, like, it's only if, you know... But what it is is like you're still in a process of going where you wanna go, you know? And that is just one part. That's just one piece of the puzzle. It's just one day, and you're learning something. You're still on that road. Like, a failure is if like, nope, you didn't get it, and now you're walking away and never doing it again. That's a failure, you know? Um- Mm. But it never is a failure if you're not, if you're, you know, you're still in the process of it. You're still working on getting where you wanna go. Like, if you're on your beth- deathbed and be like, "Yeah, no, I didn't succeed at that. I didn't do those things," but I think at that point n- most people are not, you're not actually looking at the outcome of things. You're going to look at the experience of things. , And whether you showed up, whether you did it, whether you tried, that's where, where it's at, you know? Mm. So that's w- how I look at failure. It doesn't exist. It only, giving up is the only, perhaps the only failure that is there, but we can also decide that no, this isn't, this actually isn't what I wanna do. We're allowed to change our mind. But then the interesting part of that is that you can't- You can't have, you can't deny failure and also, but allow success. Because success is just the other side of that coin, and that's you then, like, saying that. Because then you give that value to that outcome, and if you wanna move the value from the outcome to the process, it has to stay in the process no matter whether you're winning or losing. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Hmm. But we also have to remember, it, this doesn't mean that you're not supposed to be upset when things don't go your way or that you're not supposed to be happy when things go your way. That's a different thing, 'cause you are, you should definitely celebrate all your wins, and you should feel your losses 'cause you're not completely detached. , You're just not lingering in those places and thinking that it means something about you, you know? Hmm. You're not a better person just because you keep winning all the time. You're good at what you're doing, but has nothing to do with who you are and your value as a person. That lies much more in how you show up and how you relate and what, you know, that, the process of things. Yes. Yeah. So can you, uh, uh, can you hold your, yourself as a, a functional person as well as a functional surfer even if you had- Mm-hmm ... a terrible surf? You can f- Yeah ... feel those feelings of failure, but you know, and that's just on the road- Yeah ... kind of thing. Exactly. Host: Hmm. So the surfing- So a lot of it's- ... or any sport- Yeah is testing your, your path to self-mastery in a way. Lisa: Exactly. 'Cause it, it really lies right there. Because if you have to detach yourself in order to do something, then you're not f- you're not supposed to do that either, . It's not just, you need to be able to linger in that place where it's worth everything, but it doesn't, it doesn't, kill you if you don't get it, and that is a very tightrope to wander, you know, to walk. Host: Yeah. Yeah, it sure is. Hmm. Lisa: And that's where the self-mastery lies because it's like, how do I want something so much that I'm willing to risk everything, but if I don't get it, everything wasn't lost? Host: Hmm. What's the best surfing advice that you've, you've personally ever received? Lisa: Like, in terms of how to be a better surfer? Host: Anything. Anything. Mm-hmm. Could be as outside of the box as you want. Wh- what's the first thing that comes to mind when I ask that question? Lisa: I mean, the, the first thing that comes to mind is what my coach always says. He always asks me, you know, you know, what is my, , happy, proud, positive, uh, grateful. , I have to mention a few things that I'm, you know, that made me happy, that was positive, that I'm grateful about, ? It doesn't matter how, how the surf went. That's the most important thing to ask yourself after, you know? That's what's coming to mind because it's, it's about when it comes to getting better, it's not, it's not about, as much about looking at the things that you didn't do. It's looking about the things that you did do. And, and the positive things, strengthen those, put, , boost that more than it is to stop doing, picking apart the things that you didn't do, Host: . Is that because, uh, I've heard that the, the brain is hardwired to look for danger and to think about the negative s- sides of things up to nine- Mm times more than the opposite. Is that true? Lisa: I don't know about the number, but you are correct in that sense. I mean, we're wired for survival, right? Mm. So we're much more, it's much more valuable to know where the threats lie than where the opportunities lies. So you're kind of- That, yeah ... Host: what your coach is saying w- we know that. Hmm. So it's up to our prefrontal cortex to balance that equation out by reminding yourself of the positives and, and the, and the gratitude? Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's a muscle we need to train, you know? You get better and better at seeing those things, 'cause it's constantly shifting the perspective to the things that you did do and the things that... You can choose how you feel. I mean, uh, you know, you can, if you wanna feel miserable, look at the shit that you didn't do and the things that are not going right. If you wanna feel good, look about the things that you did do and the things that are doing good. And from a place of feeling good, you're much more inspired, much more motivated, things feel easier, and things are going to change. Doesn't mean that you're giving up and that you're never go- you know, like, 'cause some people feel like, "Well, if I'm just happy all the time and looking at the things that are good, I'm never gonna get better. I'm never, you know, like, I'm never gonna push myself," and all of these things. And it's just like, it's just not true. , We don't need to, like, beat ourself with a stick in order to, to move forward. Hmm. We can literally just do it from a place of, "I want that. That's exciting. Let's go over there." Host: Hmm., So I know that one-on-one is obviously the best way to talk about, things in terms of one's surfing relationship and psychology, but- Yeah are, given your work in this domain with surfers, are there some common- Mm ... do you have any common advice or best three tips or something like that for listeners out there that, uh, are curious? Lisa: If we're going from, like, coming at it from the perspective of wanting to get better and more sort of the performance sports psychology end of things more than the holistic wellness , side of it, I would say that one of the most important or good things you can do for yourself is to shift the focus from outcome to process. You can't control the outcome. You can't control how, , well you're going to perform in a, in a certain moment. But you can, 'cause, , that's up to a bunch of things, but you can control how hard you work on things, how disciplined you are with things, how well you take care of yourself, and all of these things. So get really good at that part. You know, showing up, doing the work. Focus on the process. Get good at getting good. Hmm. That's, um... Host: The, the journey, not the destination is the cliche. Lisa: Yes, it's exactly the same. So I would say that that is, uh, you know, one of the key things to, to learn and to appreciate and be happy about and see, you know, satisfaction and fulfillment in that. The other thing is also that, you know, like, work on, on not, you know, thinking that there's no such thing as failure. Like, give up that notion that there's success and, and failure to things. It, it lies in the same thing, right? Like, it's the process over the thing. Like, it's meant to be experienced. Surfing is meant to be experienced. It's not meant to... It's not a, you know, for us who are not, professional surfers. It's a, that's why we're all out there. We're there to experience it. Hmm. , So remembering that, is a good idea. And then I would say when we're working really hard to, to get better at things, it's easy to get caught in that. It's easy to get caught in, in just going out and working on things and being really, you know, sort of even with this, you know, the process over the outcome thing, to remember to have surfs that are not that, that are just fun, enjoyable, lighthearted. You know, maybe just going with friends. And it doesn't matter if you actually surf or not or, like, how well your waves go. Just have every now and then a time when you go out in the ocean and none of those things matter, and it's just about enjoyment and play. Because it is- , those are the times when we rem- when we remember why we started, and where we're just laughing and just, like, pure enjoyment. Those are the surfs that strengthen your relationship to surf. Because that is, that's when, you know, in a place of joy and happiness, that's when bonds are created, that's when motivation come up, and all of these things. That's the fuel for when to go out there and do the hard things. Host: Mm. Yeah, and that's when we're present and we're in, more likely to be in a flow state and- Lisa: Exactly, yeah. Mm. Yeah, no, I like that. But I would say that flow state actually has an element of really applying yourself and trying to, to, to achieve something. 'Cause it sits right there at, like, not to a point where it's tension, but where it's a little bit hard, so you don't actually have to... You have to be in it in order to, um... So, so this kind of surf is more when you really don't, like, you could literally just be playing on a, you know, foamy in the white water type session. Like, it doesn't have to be on that level, but it, you know, it's really no, no pressure, no nothing at all. But, and we can achieve that on certain, in, in certain elements. , Like that also, you know, flow state, it- that's, that would be a surf that's actually great for that. I'm just saying that for some, we need to, like, lower the bar even more in order to really get into that play, because some are really sensitive to that performance element of things. Host: . Well, that's why kids learn surfing so easily, 'cause they're just playing. Lisa: There's no- They're just playing, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also their, all of their subconscious, they're, like, imprinting so, so quickly, um, into, you know, learning things, because they haven't, they're in those formative years, right? Mm. They're not struggling as much with that conscious- Yeah ... critical prefrontal cortex activity. Host: Is the frustration of how long it takes to get better at surfing, i- is that a common trope from, from your clients? Lisa: I would say. Um, I would say it is. I would say a lot, you know, cer- quite a few clients are coming, like they've surfed two or three years, and they're like, "Ah, why I'm not getting better?" I was like, "Well, A, you probably are, you just can't see it, 'cause it's very small and incremental. And two, you're comparing surfing to other things in life that are linear and that has a static play field." So yeah, I would say that it is because they haven't understood how, you know, how hard it is and, like, the real effect of things being, you know, the ocean being the, the, the arena. Mm. So yeah, they, but, and, and it usually also comes when they have, they're used to being able to learn things really quickly, master things quickly, get good at things. So it becomes a little bit of an identity challenge, because all of a sudden things are not the way it usually is. So then they're like, "Why do I suck at this," you know? "When I'm, I can do everything else. Like, what does that say about me?" And then they think that, you know. So that's, that's the whole loop that can come with it. Host: Yeah, and if that, happens when you're, whilst you're actually surfing, then y- you lose focus on reading the ocean, and then it all goes to hell. Lisa: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, you, you, you lose presence, and you start to get tense and start to, like, you know, push and force things, and, uh, it just doesn't work. , Host: I really like what you said before, surfing is meant to be experienced. Yeah. Yeah. That's a, a great, great mantra or quote. Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause if, I mean, that's, that's why every- It, yeah. That's why everyone paddles out, right? Like, it's to be there and do it. It's not to... Host: the irony is, yeah, that's, you- You're right, but then next thing you know, you find yourself sitting out there in the ocean, and you can't get out of your head, and you're frustrated, and why is everyone else catching all the waves, and I can't even do Lisa: just s- Yeah, exactly little control. I think we've all been there at some point as surfers. Um. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Mm. Yeah, there's a lot to it. Yeah, it's hard, to, uh, get back to the moment there. . Yeah, it's hard. Yeah. I would say, , if I should just jump in with some advice there. Please. Well, the first thing is to notice when it's happening, right? To notice when that spiral is happening, and then, um, I would say paddle away for a little bit and , notice other things. Put your brain to just, like, how does it feel? How does the water feel on my feet and my legs? How does the wind feel in my hair? So that you're kinda shifting out of, you're shifting out of that problem-solving, you know, very, like, conscious thought into an experience and into the feeling and back into the body, and that will be a way to get out of that, that loop. . Just quickly interrupt it a little bit. Break the loop. Get back into the senses. Feel what you feel and, and, like, be present, anchor yourself in the moment. And then it, it's hard, and then try to paddle back and do it, but this is something that you need to kinda, like, practice and get good at, like switching out of that. . But that is a, an exercise to, to start- ... training that. I think we've all experienced- Host: Mm ... the opposite of that. When you're in... When you're surfing, you're in rhythm with the, with the ocean, you're having a great surf- Mm ... and then you go and say, "Oh, I'm just gonna go in and swap boards," or, "I'm gonna go in and have something to eat- Mm and then come back out." Mm. And then often your second session is you're completely out of rhythm Lisa: and- Yeah, because you are... Yeah. Then you put the expectation that it's gonna be exactly the same when you get out, and then it's not, but it's just 'cause you're expecting to. If you ha- if you were just like... Yeah. Host: Mm. But it can work both ways. Not attached to that. If, if you're having a bad session, then, yeah, reset. Yeah. Try again. Mm. Yeah, no, it's, it's, uh, it's tricky to talk about in such general, general terms because everyone's, psychology and situation and fears and frustrations are all so individual, and that's obvious- Yeah obviously what you, you specialize in. Mm. So what is, what is your website, and what is your ideal client? Lisa: Uh, my website, like what's my actual URL? Is that what you're asking? Well, it's the- So- ... thesurfpsychologist.com, correct? Yes, correct. That's it. Nice. Well, my ideal client is, uh, I would say it's someone who n- you know, like they already know that it, that it's not technique, it's not more time in the water. It's, it's, you know, between the ears somewhere, you know? And they are open and i- interested in doing more of that work. There's also no real quick fixes. For most of these things that I work on, , it's quite, , deep personal things. So it's not a wh- it's... I can do a little bit of work with mindset, y- exercises, how to relate to things, what to do out there, how to think. But I would say that that represents maybe 10, maybe 20% of your performance out there. That's very, you know, guesstimated numbers. The other work, which is more, which leans in more to like real therapy work, as in like, "Who am I? How do I feel about myself?" Um- Yeah, your self-esteem, how much you trust yourself, what are your triggers, what, you know, like, how much do you identify with performance? How much does that tell you whether you're a lovable person or not, you know? How do I, you know, relate to other people? Am I constantly feeling judged and like I don't belong? These sits, like, really deep inside of us, these, you know, beliefs about ourselves. So to really shift performance when you're on that level, it needs to go into that kind of deeper work. And then it becomes a lot more about who you are and not so much about what you're thinking when you're out there. So, uh, and that's my ideal client, who wants to do that kind of work, because that's, that's also the really interesting and rewarding work for me. And that's where things are going to shift a lot more. Host: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Will help, help you to be present. Going that deep in our work will help you to be present everywhere, not just in the ocean. Lisa: Exactly. That extends well beyond, well beyond surfing. Like, that's, um... So, so, you know. And someone who understands and knows that and sees the value of that work, that's my ideal client. Mm. Yes. Mm. Or someone who's curious about it. Host: And I, and I can say from personal experience that when I got into therapy, it was more, uh, it was more for relationship reasons. But I was surpri- Mm ... I was surprised about how doing that work affected other parts of my life, and I became- Yeah ... it was much easier to be present when I was surfing and- Lisa: Yeah Host: so yeah. I can- Yeah, exactly ... from experience. Yeah. So if you're listening to this and you're curious to find out more, you can go to thesurfpsychologist.com to find out more about Lisa and- Mm ... her work, et cetera. Yes, excellent. So thank you so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate it. And links to all the- You're welcome. It was a pleasure. Yes. No, thank you so much. Links to everything will be in the show notes for those that are listening in the car. And, uh- Yeah ... appreciate everyone tuning in, and big thanks to Lisa for being a guest today. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

141 Stop Paddling for Waves - The Beginner Surfing Advice Nobody Gives You Surf Mastery Podcast Download What if catching more waves as a beginner had less to do with paddling harder, and more to do with timing and wave selection? Many beginner surfers waste energy chasing every patch of whitewater, only to miss waves, struggle to stand up, and finish each session feeling frustrated. In this episode, surf coach Michael Frampton explains a simpler approach that helps you conserve energy, choose better waves, and develop skills that will support your surfing for years to come. You’ll discover: How to catch whitewater waves without paddling by using a simple, well-timed movement What separates strong, smooth whitewater waves from weak, turbulent ones How timing, ocean awareness, and efficient habits can help you stand up more often and learn faster Play the episode to start catching better waves with less effort and build the foundational skills every confident surfer needs. To download the free PDF: "The Intelligent Beginners Guide to Surfing" click this link: https://mailchi.mp/surfmastery/the-intelligent-beginners-guide-to-surfing Transcript: ​ Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps you to be a better surfer in and out of the water. I'm your host, Michael Frampton, and today's episode is for beginner surfers. Now, I've been a surf coach for over 15 years, and I've worked with hundreds of surfers, including the absolute beginners. And I've realized recently that this podcast doesn't actually have much information for the absolute beginner, so I've got a couple of absolute gems here for you. Tip number one is to stop paddling for waves. Firstly, let me explain the drill so that you can visualize how to catch waves without paddling, and then I'll explain a bit more as to why we do this drill. So the no paddling method. All you need to do is walk out into waist-deep water, you turn yourself and your surfboard around so that you're facing the beach. And the next whitewater wave that comes towards you that you want to catch, wait, wait until the last second, and just before the whitewater hits the tail of your board, you jump forward and onto your board. That's it. You've caught the wave. That's the simplest and easiest way to catch a wave as a beginner. Now, the biggest mistake that people make on this drill is not having the board at 90 degrees to the wave. If you have your board slightly angled wrong to the wave, then you're gonna dig rail, and you're not gonna catch the wave. So make sure it's at 90 degrees to the approaching wave. Now, the no paddle method is gonna save you a lot of energy. It's efficient, and it's teaching you the most important thing in surfing, which is timing, especially when it comes to catching waves. That well-timed little burst of momentum and intention is all that you need to catch the wave at any level actually. You don't need to waste energy paddling This drill will also help you to realize that catching waves is a lot easier than you think, and it's got very little to do with paddling power. It's got everything to do with timing and of course wave selection, which segues into tip number two. Tip number two is catch the best whitewater waves. So now as beginners, we often think that whitewater is just whitewater. We paddle out and catch whatever comes towards us. But not all whitewater waves are equal. Some white water waves are more powerful than others, even though they might be the same size. Some run smoothly all the way to the beach, and some are interrupted by cross waves and backwash or turbulence or water coming back out. There are lots of wave refractions and water movements that happen in that space between the white water wave and the beach So your job as a beginner isn't simply to catch the whitewater, it's to catch the best whitewater waves. Now, that means learning to read the waves and more importantly, learning to read the movement of water in front of the wave. If you've done some surfing already, you've probably noticed that some whitewater waves are incredibly easy to catch and they push you effortlessly all the way to the beach. Other ones just seem to have no power at all, or some are messy, unpredictable, and even chaotic. And it all seems random as to which is which. But that's just because you haven't seen the finer details yet. There are reasons that these waves behave differently, radically differently often, even though at first glance they look very similar. And your job is now to start observing those reasons Generally, you're looking for the stronger whitewater waves that have smooth, uninterrupted water in front of them. So between you and the beach, you want nice smooth water, free of any other waves or any other radical water movements. Then that whitewater wave that's coming towards you has nice water to push you over and through. The best surfers read the ocean the best. Now, that is true for every level of surfer, and that's what you're building right from the beginning. So both of these tips are very considerate of a concept called performance strands. A performance strand is something that's existed in coaching of a lot of other developed sports like tennis, for example. It's basically saying that whatever habit you build in the beginning should stay with you through your entire journey through that sport. For example, in tennis, it would be the way that you hold the racket. If you spend time making sure that you hold the racket correctly in the beginning, then that is a habit that you'll take with you, , through your entire tennis journey And that would be considered a performance strand. So when you're learning how to surf, it's important that you consider this concept so that everything that you learn in the beginning will hold you steadfast through your entire surfing journey. And developing the perspective that waves are easy to catch if you get the timing and wave selection right is an important performance strand The opposite of that might be what you would pick up, at a large surf school that's giving a tourist-based experience, whereas you just go out there and you paddle hard for anything that's coming in So to summarize these two tips, we could say that your objective as a beginner surfer is to catch the best whitewater waves in the simplest, most efficient way possible These will be the waves that are the easiest to stand up on and that will give you the longest ride. So you'll actually learn faster because you'll be standing on your surfboard more, and you're learning the timing of catching waves, and you're learning how to read waves and the way water moves, Which are the two most important skills that any surfer at any level can develop Now we've got more details on those tips, plus a lot more tips for the beginner surfer, including where to surf, equipment, surfing philosophy, lots, lots more, and it's all inside the free PDF called The Intelligent Beginner's Guide to Surfing, which is now available at surfmastery.com. You will see it there on the homepage. All you need to do is enter your email address, and you will be sent this PDF directly to your email. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend, and if you're new to the podcast, the podcast has a 10-year back catalog of timeless episodes full of surfing advice. So I urge you to go all the way back to episode number one And I hope surfing stays with you. Until next time, keep surfing The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

139 Play Forever with Dr. Kevin Stone: Healing, Longevity & the Future of Joint Health Surf Mastery Podcast Download What if the key to recovering from injury and surfing well into your 80s isn’t resting more… but learning how to “play” better? Orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine pioneer Dr. Kevin Stone explains why movement, balance, community, and even fun itself may be some of the most important ingredients in healing. From biologic joint repair and stem-cell science to the psychology of staying present in the water, this conversation explores how athletes can come back stronger instead of slowly breaking down. In this episode, you’ll discover: Why turning fitness into “play” instead of “work” can dramatically improve your consistency, mindset, and long-term health. The cutting-edge advancements in biologic joint repair, PRP therapies, robotic surgery, and recovery techniques that are helping athletes avoid unnecessary surgeries and heal faster. How balance, presence, and mental focus reduce injuries, and why distraction may be one of the biggest hidden causes of wipeouts and breakdowns as we age. Press play now to learn how to recover smarter, stay active longer, and keep doing the sport you love for the rest of your life. https://www.stoneclinic.com Play Forever Book: https://a.co/d/06sF8zYm Michael Frampton: , Dr. Kevin Stone, welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Thank you so much for coming on board. You're welcome. So you have a book, and it's called Play Forever. The subtitle is How to Recover from Injury and Thrive. Now, I do want to get into the title of the book, because it plays nicely into surfing, I think, because surfing is often seen as a sport. I personally think it's a sport for very few. Most of us surfers surf recreationally and for fun, and my philosophy is surfing is far closer to music than it is a sport. So therefore, what do we do with an instrument? We play an instrument. So I'm always preaching to people, "Hey, we've got to go play surf." We don't go surfing for s- for a sport per se, unless you're a competitive athlete. So I like the title of your book for that reason, but my first question would be is what was the inspiration to write the book in the first place? Dr Kevin. Stone: Well, lots of them. First of all, I'm an orthopedic surgeon here in San Francisco, and so, and I see athletes from all over the world, lots of surfers, lots of skiers, lots of other athletes at all ages. , And one of the things we like to do is try to encourage people to use their injury as an excuse to come back fitter, faster, and stronger than they've been in years. And so if they're gonna do that, it means they've gotta have the mindset to, exercise every day, to treat themselves like a pro athlete would, to line up all their resources, fitness coach, nutrition, psychological time- , and play time. And, , and so in order to do that, you've gotta really enjoy what you're doing. You gotta enjoy the activities to be fit and to be fitter than you've ever been in years. And the only way you do that is if they're fun. And so we find that people will do things that are fun, and they tend not to do things that are not fun. So we try to encourage people to stop working out. Okay. We want them to play out. And if it's playing, whether it's with weights, whether it's climbing a mountain, whether it's on a surfboard, you're gonna do it more, you're gonna enjoy it, you're gonna get the benefit from it. And if it's work, there is some negative things associated with that, and, and not all, not everything that we want to get out of the athlete, to get out of the injured person to help them come back better. Michael Frampton: I like that. That's a great philosophy. Can you give me an example? Dr Kevin. Stone: Sure. So you know that most people will do a sport if they do it socially. Most people do everything in life if they do it socially. You know, while surfing in general is seen, you know, as a loner sitting on a board, really it's a community on the water. It's a community on the beach. And if you're with your friends, if you're with your community, you're there more often, you're on the water more often. You, you don't see the weather or the conditions as a barrier be- as much, because it's just fun being with your friends. And so I think that's applies to almost everything else you do. If you're training for a sport, you're trying to build proprioception, muscle development skills, doing that with a partner, doing that with friends, doing that with a coach, doing that with a fitness instructor makes it so much more fun, makes it much more profitable in terms of how much gain you're gonna get out of it. So look at life and look at exercise and look at sport as playtime. And if you can, you'll be enjoying it a- that much more. And that's why we want you to drop dead at age 100 playing the sport you love. Michael Frampton: Yeah, okay. So if you've, you've got a really bad injury, and let's say to the point where you can't play golf and you have to go to a physiotherapist, you might be more inclined to choose a physical therapist who is a bit more fun than someone who's a bit more clinical. Dr Kevin. Stone: Well, let me give you an example of that. So that physical therapist or that fitness coach, if they put a golf club in your hand during your rehab time, and you work on your putting, you're gonna have a lot more fun there, no matter what your injury, than if they don't. And so our job in- In orthopedic surgery and fitness training and helping people come back is how to understand what makes that person happy, what goals are meaningful for them physically, activity-wise, and be very creative about helping them spend much of their time in that space. Michael Frampton: Yeah, I like that way of thinking. W- would you say that this book... W- would a physical therapist, learn some creative principles like the one you just mentioned to apply to their therapy from this book? Dr Kevin. Stone: Yes. Michael Frampton: Is, is it written for everyone or is it written for clinicians? Dr Kevin. Stone: It's written for everyone. Yeah? Yeah. It's written for everyone. And, and it, it's really, uh, my effort at describing a philosophy in life of how you approach many things, mostly injury-related and recovery-related, but there's a number of other things thrown in there too in terms of meaning of life and, and how to get the most out of it. What are, you know, how we view living a playful, fun, rewarding life, and how you use things that you otherwise would think as setbacks and turn them in your favor. Michael Frampton: Let's go into the title, Play Forever. What's your definition of the word play? Dr Kevin. Stone: Having fun at what you're doing. Nice and simple. And forever? So that you drop dead playing the sport you love. Michael Frampton: Love it. Everyone listening to this show wants to surf for as long as they can. You're talking to the right audience here. What's the worst thing we can do to sort of think the opposite way? Dr Kevin. Stone: Well, if you turn fitness into work, which is why, you know, that we kind of avoid the word working out, uh, you, you take away some of the, as I said, the fun part of the, of being fit, of being healthy, of being positive, of, of enjoying life. So that's one thing. Number two, you know, the most common reason I see athletes injured is a mental error. So you almost always know that you were going a little too fast, you did a move you shouldn't do, uh, you caught a wave in a position you probably shouldn't have been in. Every surfer I ever ask gets tumbled and injured. You know, "Did you know? What was your sort of thinking about before it happened?" Almost always say, "You know, I sort of knew I was off position. I was off on the wave. I was just in the wrong spot. I just sort of knew before it happened." And that's usually distraction. And so if you can leave your cellphone at home, you can leave thoughts about your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your life, your work, if you can be in the moment of what you're doing, your likelihood of getting injured goes down tremendously. If you're not in the moment, if your mind isn't in the game, if you're thinking about something else, you very commonly end up in my office. Mm-hmm. And my job is to help you not do that. Michael Frampton: Which brings us back to play, 'cause if you were playing, you would be in the moment. So if movement is medicine, and part of your philosophy is the tissue can be, , preserved, which we'll get into, but, , then why are so many aging athletes, especially surfers, why are they breaking down? Dr Kevin. Stone: It's a, there's lots of reasons why we're breaking down as we're all getting older. But, uh, as you know, you're generally losing muscle and bone as you age. And unfortunately, many people have been told to, they've had a total knee or they've had some other surgery or they've had arthritis, and they've been go- told to go home and rest their body parts so they don't wear it out, some verbiage like that. And we, for the last 35 years of my practice here in San Francisco, have been telling patients exactly the opposite. So if I replace their knee joint with a partial knee or a total, or a total knee replacement, we're telling them, "We want you to increase your exercise, increase your loading, increase your muscle development." And the reason is, as you age, you're losing muscle and bone. And so those components that we're putting in are more likely to come loose if you're not exercising and not building bone. So it's the opposite of the advice most people have given for a long time. And so in my entire practice, I've only seen one patient wear out their component from running. And so why have all these patients been told, "Don't go run on your partial or total knee replacement"? So we've been giving the opposite advice. We- you know, a lot of things have come into play to help us do that for athletes. Robotic surgery has made a huge difference. The getting rid of bone cement and total joint replacements has b- made a big difference. The ability to do partial knee replacements for so many athletes makes a huge difference because those knees feel more normal than does a total knee replacement. And the o- opportunity to do biologic joint replacement, where I put back a new meniscus, regrow the cartilage, replace the ligaments as necessary, you know, that's also been great for so many of our athletes who aren't anywhere near needing a partial or artificial joint replacement. Michael Frampton: Let's talk about knees for a bit. I'm, I can speak from personal experience. I had a ACL reconstruction on my right knee in 2001. It was done by a young surgeon. I tore that graft. It needed to be revisited in 2005. And now, last year, 20 years on, um, I have, you know, bone-on-bone osteoarthritis, what advice would you give to someone like me? Dr Kevin. Stone: So we like to give advice based on good data. That data means I need a physical exam, X-ray, MRI, if possible. For our patients who are outside of San Francisco, they often will send in their X-rays and MRI. We do that as a complimentary service. You go to stoneclinic.com/consult, and you can upload your X-ray or MRI. We can look at that and advise patients. So I like to give advice based on good data. Okay. However, I will tell you that 80% of patients who've been told that they need a total knee don't. And that's not just our own data. So they could either have a partial replacement or they could have a biologic replacement, replacing the meniscus or regrowing the cartilage. If they do need a total knee, then again, we're doing these robotically now, and that means that we can get rid of the bone cement, the key component that, that led to loosening from so many of the patients in the past. By getting rid of the bone cement, the body grows into the porous undersurface of the implant, so it becomes part of you. The only way you're gonna knock it loose is if you break your bone. So that's taken away all the concerns about letting people back to running and sport, hiking, and doing impact exercises. So in the things you described about your knee, I would ask you, "Look, send me an X-ray, send me a recent MRI. Get on the phone with me. Let me look at your X-rays and MRI and over a Zoom, and I can counsel you with pretty good, you know, advice about what you should do best." Of course, if I can get my hands on your knee and examine you, so come in and see me here, but if you can't do that, then we talk to you on the phone. Okay. That, that's, that sounds really interesting. Michael Frampton: Y- obviously you're on the, the cutting edge of s- things, The biologics, what's the, what's the future of that look like? Dr Kevin. Stone: So we're in what I call the anabolic era of sports medicine, which means that every time we repair something, repair a ligament, repair a meniscus, we're almost always adding anabolics, growth factors from PRP, your own blood, or birth tissues that have a high concentration of mesenchymal stem cells or other growth factors, and hyaluronic acid, the lubricant of the joint. So we're always potentiating our surgery if we have to do surgery, or our injuries for athletes who don't need surgery. We're adding these factors to augment or accelerate their healing response. Now, I'll give you a little short summary of what the status is of cells . So stem cells are pericytes. They live on the walls of vessels, and you sitting there have billions of stem cells within your body. Yes, when you were younger, you had more than you have as you age, but you still have billions of them or you wouldn't be talking to me. My job as a physician and scientist is if I'm gonna give you a therapy, the therapy needs to mobilize your billions of stem cells to that site of injury. So if you have a bruise, let's just say you, you hit your muscle on a, a step, and that bruise, the little bleeding into the body there sends out all these s- a siren call to all the stem cells in your body and says, "Hey, some come here," and direct the healing response. And that's the way nature works to first start with inflammation and then reorganization of the collagen tissues. So when we inject cells, which we don't focus on so much anymore, we're trying to-- because they tend to die or not be enough cells to really affect change. What we're trying to do is inject chemokines or factors that recruit your body's own stem cells to that site. Mm. We also inject PRP and lubricants because they have potent anti-inflammatory, anti-fibrotic, meaning anti-scarring, anabolic, meaning they stimulate the lining cells of your joint to produce more lubrication. And a- as I said, paragran effects or chemotactic effects, recruiting your body's own stem cells. So the science around- Augmenting healing or augmenting surgical procedures is accelerating rapidly now, and we're, we're part of doing research in that space and trying to figure out what's the best cocktail to give you as an athlete, uh, before surgery, to avoid surgery, or after surgery. And we- we're doing that quite a bit now in almost all of these injuries. Michael Frampton: Okay. For the listener who's listening, who's maybe suffering with some joint pain, it sounds, uh, if you go to your st- standard run-of-the-mill general practitioner, you get referred to a surgeon who wants to, you know, do whatever surgery they specialize in. That can be quite depressing, to put it bluntly. But you, and what you've just been saying here and looking at your website, is you're giving a lot of hope. Your belief in the body's natural, you know, to stimulate the body's natural ability to heal and, , to encourage us to play and keep moving. Dr Kevin. Stone: For sure. And in New Zealand as well as here, the fantastic part of this story is that you have access to excellent doctors and excellent scientists who are looking at trying to figure out how do they help athletes come back, uh, better than they were before, healing these tissues. And so even surgeons, you'd be surprised. You know, my goal is to keep people out of my operating room if I can, but if they have tissues that are broken, to repair those or replace them. We do lots of meniscus replacement here. Mm-hmm. That means when you tear your meniscus cartilage, if the surgeon can't repair it, if some of it has to be taken out, then we put them back in quite a bit, 'cause we've learned that when you lose the meniscus, you develop arthritis and pain. And if we can help you avoid that or treat it after you've already lost it, that's a big contribution to your knee. , So even though we're, we're biased towards repairing tissues that are broken as fast as we possibly can so that you don't suffer all the breakdown effects over time, we are also developing these skills of augmenting healing. And I'll give you an example. So in the past, for rotator cuff injuries in the shoulder, I treat shoulder, knee, and ankle injuries. So in the past, the rotator cuff tears that you hear so much about, we almost always would take them to surgery, uh, and repair them. And the problem was that about 30% of them would go on to fail, which is distressing to all of us. It turns out now that almost every rotator cuff injury that I see- We inject with a cocktail of growth factors and lubrication and other things, start them on a rehab program, and then repair them later on if their rehab and injections have not been good enough to get them back to doing everything they wanna do. And that's dramatically decreased our need to do shoulder surgery. And if I have to operate on them, uh, then I augment that surgical repair with this cocktail of things, trying to reduce that failure rate that we've seen in the past. And that's true in arthritic ankles. It's true in arthritic knees as well. We're trying first to help the patient buy time if they can, and if not, if I have to repair it, then we augment the repair. Michael Frampton: Where do you see the next five years go? Like, how, where- where's this heading? Dr Kevin. Stone: So if you'd asked that question a year or two ago about AI, you would've been way wrong. And if you asked that question about biologics and orthopedics and tissue repair, we'll probably be wrong as well. But we're excited about the work that we're doing. I have a public nonprofit research foundation as well, so we're looking at research on how do we make these injections work better? How do we get cartilage repair to work better? How do we do better surgical techniques? And we post all that, by the way. There's a public website called stoneresearch.org, and you can learn about these research programs. But I would tell you that I think that the injections will get better and better at recruiting your body's stem cells so that you will heal faster from the injuries that we're seeing. And so instead of all my athletes saying, "Hey, Doc, why does it take a year to come back from an ACL injury or an Achilles tendon rupture?" You know, I think we'll be accelerating that quite a bit, and we already are, but I think we'll do a much better job in the future. Michael Frampton: Hmm. So the body has this ability to, to heal itself. Why doesn't it? And why, why does it take something like an in- an injection of stimulants to get that going? Dr Kevin. Stone: Because normal collagen healing takes about 12 months. And so if you have an incision or a cut on your arm or your knee or, , and you look at the color of that incision, it's kind of red when it's first been repaired, and over the course of time, over the course of 12 months usually, that reddish tissue goes down to about your normal color of your skin. Sometimes not all the way, but that color change is collagen maturation. So it's taking the disorganized collagen fibers of scar, and it's remodeling them into oriented collagen fibers. And so that reorientation, that laying down of new collagen, uh, oriented, orienting it in the right form, is, can be augmented by an anabolic. That stimulates those cells to lay down new collagen or lay down more crosslinks or organize it faster. And so what we're doing is taking nature's own healing response mechanism and simply adding to it, adding a little stimulant to it so it goes a little bit faster. . Michael Frampton: Have you been inspired by any other books? Any other books that you can think that back up your, your, your philosophy of play and, and, and longevity? Dr Kevin. Stone: You know, not so much in that sense. , I think that, , I, I was influenced in my fellowship by a guy named Richard Steadman, who was a US Ski Team doc, and it helped me then care for the ski team as well. , And influenced by other physicians I saw early on. My dad was a physician, my granddad was a physician. So I think I've seen all my life the, , the ability to help people, and I've been inspired by the patients that we've helped who have all cheated. And what that means is that we told them, you know, "Use a brace, use a cast, use crutches," and they would come back in the office a month or two later carrying their device that they were supposed to be wearing. And so what happened was we learned from our athletes that many of our restrictions were too restrictive. And we learned what, where we could push, where we couldn't push. And so I think I've learned the most from my patients- , who took the advice I gave them and accelerated it. And I think those have been our best teachers. Michael Frampton: You mentioned your grandfather and your father were physicians as well. Were they also surgeons, or what inspired you to get into this particular field? Dr Kevin. Stone: They were not, but I injured my knee playing soccer for Harvard back in the, , late '70s, and, uh, the guy who repaired it was an orthopedic surgeon in the field house. And, I admired him caring for the athletes. And, I set up my practice here in San Francisco similar to that, where there's a training room. And so their rehab team and physical therapy folks are all right next door to our normal orthopedic clinical exam rooms, our MRI and X-ray. So everything's all in one space, one area, and we can walk around and see the athletes at every stage, both immediately before surgery, after surgery, and then in rehab and fitness training. , And so I think that inspiration for helping people not just recover from surgery or from injury, but to come back better than they've been in years, came from seeing that environment, thinking about how I could optimize it. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Okay. So, and h- how's your knee nowadays? Dr Kevin. Stone: Good. I'm still skiing and windsurfing and surfing on the beach and doing all the things I love to do. Michael Frampton: Oh, that's good to hear. That's really good. Yeah. Yeah. , You mentioned, I've heard you talk about balance. How important is balance ? Dr Kevin. Stone: So proprioception, which is the, the brain-body connection between where you're landing and where your feet are or where your body is in space, and therefore whether or not you're balanced or not, , is a critical task that can easily be trained, and we tend to forget to train it. Yet it's so easy to train. Just standing on one leg on a pillow in your bedroom, you know, and just close your eyes and see how hard that is and see how good you are at it. It's the simplest way. For me, stand-up paddling, and for my patients, stand-up paddling is probably the funnest sport that we do for balance. , I think just being on the board at every age, standing on a board on the water is something my 90-year-old patients can do and my younger patients can do, everybody in post-op rehab can do, many people can do. , So simple things like that are sportive, fun, playful, but are also- Building the thing that you tend to lose as you age Michael Frampton: Hmm. Do- y- you mentioned you got quite a holistic clinic there. , Are you targeting balance specifically through neurological training there, or is it all play-based? Dr Kevin. Stone: Everything is integrated pretty well. , You can't return to sport unless you have a good sense of balance. And so, so many of the rehab exercises we're doing require it. Michael Frampton: Hopefully this conversation has inspired some of my listeners to go out , and buy the book and dig deeper. But if you were to summarize it in one sentence, how would you do that? Dr Kevin. Stone: Focusing on how to recover from injury. So if you are the, "Oh me, oh my, I'm injured. Now my season's ruined," or whatever, "My life is ruined," you're not gonna do very well. But if you're that person who says, "Bummer, I injured my knee, but let me use this time to figure out how to come back better, how to train my core, how to train upper body. How to work around my knee injury," if it's a knee injury. "How to, how to work on things that I really, before my injury, had, wasn't really spending the time or focused on or paid attention to," then you're the athlete who's gonna come back better than you were before. And all athletes get injured, and the great ones use that time as an opportunity to be better. And so this book goes into lots of aspects about that. It also talks about, you know, specific orthopedic treatments and anabolic era stuff. Uh, some mind game stuff, other things that are fun. Michael Frampton: Okay. And can you inform folks of your website, please? Dr Kevin. Stone: Sure. So I'm at stoneclinic.com here in San Francisco. If they need a consult about an injury, look at stoneclinic.com/consult. We do that as a complimentary basis. Uh, if they're interested in the research, take a look at stone research.org. It's a public nonprofit research foundation. And we're just, we're excited by what we do , and excited to help people play forever. Michael Frampton: Yep. And is the book available on Amazon? Dr Kevin. Stone: Yes. Michael Frampton: Okay, excellent. So I will make sure that there are links to all of that, those things that, Dr. Stone just mentioned in the show notes. , Dr. Stone, thank you so much for your time today and, it's, this, the future is bright for joint health. Dr Kevin. Stone: It sure is. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Thank you so much. Great to talk with you. You too. Take care. Yep. The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

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137 James Russell - Mad Surf Stories Surf Mastery Podcast Download What would you do if one wild surf story could change how you travel, train, and survive in the ocean? Michael talks with author James Russell about the real spark behind his podcast; Mad Surf Stories - those unforgettable car park conversations where local surfers share the kind of stories that never make the mainstream. From near-death experiences and ocean rescues to fear, aging, flow state, and the lessons hidden inside heavy surf moments, this conversation speaks to anyone who loves the ocean and wants to surf smarter, safer, and longer. You’ll hear how storytelling preserves local surf lore, why surfers should take safety gear more seriously, and what happens when experience, fear, and age all collide in the lineup. James also shares insights from his own surfing life, his writing, and the deeper emotional threads that run through survival stories at sea. Discover why real surf stories are often the best source of practical wisdom and hard-earned safety lessons You’ll learn how fear, preparation, and mindset shape performance in the water, especially as surfers get older. You’ll get a deeper appreciation for the psychology, risk, and addictive beauty of surfing and surf culture. Press play to hear the stories, lessons, and mindset shifts that could help you surf with more awareness, confidence, and respect for the ocean. James' Podcast "Mad Surf Stories" - https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/mad-surf-stories-podcast/id1861306952 https://open.spotify.com/show/4tHYvt9btBdGgB5rwKv0jv?si=e69d777c95bf46cb https://youtube.com/@madsurfstories?si=BH8FCHs6D_4RADAp James' website: https://dragonbrothersbooks.com Transcript: What inspired you to start the podcast? Yeah, , I guess it's those car park conversations with surfers, , where you talk to somebody and they just tell you something crazy that's happened to someone. And I thought. That's pretty cool. Like, to, to mine those stories would be awesome to be able to do that. , Yeah, I think that's kind of it really. 'cause they're, they're all local, you know, there's those legendary stories that might be, a Piha story or whatever, and everyone Piha knows it, but nobody else does. Hmm. And , when you get a bit long in the tooth, like me, you, you come across quite a few of them. Yeah. But yeah, the, the challenges to, , to get people to talk really. 'cause some of the surfers are like, , maybe they've had a shocker and they're a bit ashamed of it. Mm. So that's, that's the challenge really. But, , actually it's been really interesting 'cause a lot of the, , a lot of the kind of stories, there's been some quite good lessons come out of them, I think for, for listeners or for me or for whoever. Oh, definitely. . Good examples like Elliot Foot. And he, , suggested that if you're going to Indo and you're gonna be taking these ferries between islands, you get yourself an E and you buy that ether in your own country rather than in Indonesia. 'cause then when it pings, it goes back to your own country and you know, those people are gonna. Be on top of it and they're gonna call the into authorities. And I thought, you know, that's gold. That sort of info is, is gold, you know? Yeah, definitely. That he was swimming for two days, you know? Yeah. And, and it would've been. I've already got one of those. 'cause I do a bit of, bit of hunting, so I always have one in, in the backpack. You, you are almost, you're almost silly not to have one nowadays with given what we know. And you just gotta realize that, I mean, any sort of tourism operator in most countries, you know, there's regulations and you know that the captain of the boat will have one of those on them, and there's regular maintenance schedules of their equipment, blah, blah. None of that happens in Indonesia. So you, you kind of gotta have one of those with you just in case. Yeah, but keep in mind, Michael, you've, you are coming from the point, you know, you go, you're a hunter, so you go hunting and you bring this with you. I hadn't even considered that. Like, I think I've, I think they only came on my radar about two years ago when I was in an outdoor shop and I saw one. I was like, what's that? So I, I didn't even know what they were really, because I've never, you know, I've never done that much stuff. I've done, you know, I've done some stuff in the mountains, but I've been with other guys that, you know, they've probably got one in their pack, but they don't even think to mention it to me. So. Yeah, a lot of people wouldn't even think about it. And plus they're quite expensive. Right. How much do you pay for one? , Five, 600, something like that. Yeah, I think, I think I was 400 and it's just a basic e perb, like a signal. But , you can get, Garmin have devices that are similar but a little bit bigger that actually double as satellite phones, so. Right. You, even if you're out outside of normal signal and your iPhone's not gonna work, you've still got GPS signal. So you can immediately tell where you are and you can send a signal out, you can text message, I think you can even call on some of the more modern ones, and they're only a couple hundred bucks more and they have, you know, multiple uses. Now it's just be good to have one just in your house, you know? Yeah. No, it's good. I, um, I haven't had a, a big. A little while, but I think I might make the investment before I do, you know? Yeah, it's funny. Surfers are funny, aren't they? You spend 1200 bucks on a new board, but yeah, I'm not gonna spend 800 bucks on a safety device that'll last, last me a lifetime in case something happens. Well, come on. Yeah. Yeah. And by our nature, you know, we do, we go to these places and I mean, I guess no one's gonna surf with one, but, I wonder, you know, maybe, maybe one day that's, that could be a, that could be a good product to have when you're surfing. You know, something that if they get smaller and smaller, something that you could tuck into your wetsuit or something. Yeah, , there's a guy here in Auckland that I've been trying to get a hold of, he was out surfing at Kar Beach and it was big and he got swept down the coast and he ended up just getting battered into the rocks like terribly, like the bones were sticking out of the wounds. Oh. And he's so far hasn't agreed to talk to me, but hopefully he will. 'cause it's an amazing story. He ended up getting stranded on the rocks, , and the tide was coming in and he thought, okay, I'm just gonna have to jump back off and get back into this. And did that. He ended up getting washed down to another beach and was so broken up he couldn't even stand. He just had to scratch out a giant help in the sand, which was seen by some people walking along the clifftop. Oh wow. And that's how he got rescued, you know. Oh, wow. Gnarly man. Incredible. Yeah, yeah. There's some crazy stories out there and no, it's pretty awesome that you're, you're doing this I've listened to every episode , and I think it's, I think it's awesome. Yeah. Great, nice to hear. Yeah. So let's start from the beginning, right? When did you start surfing? I was a late starter I think. Like, you too, right? I started after I left school, I was down at Otago University. , And for your listeners that, dunno where that is, that's, , the bottom of New Zealand. So it's cold and plenty of swell from the Southern Ocean. . I was a pretty capable swimmer, pretty decent in the water, but yeah, never surfed, kind of never been on my radar and just fell in with a group of lads that were surfers. And, , grabbed a, got a border and a wedding and never looked back. Just loved it. Yeah. Ah, cold water. I spent a lot of time like it, , I spent so many years just cartwheeling down the face of huge waves , and just freezing cold, you know, holes in my wetsuit kind of stuff. Snowing on the beach sometimes. So I don't think I learned very quickly like it was a challenging situation to learn down there. 'cause there's. You know, it's often big, but, yeah, a lot of fun. Yeah, it's an amazing, amazing spot. Great waves. Oh yeah, describe to me your current relationship with the ocean and surfing. Well, I'm a writer, an author, so I've primarily of children's books. But, these two here are my, , I've got two, , novels for adults as opposed to adult novels, but those are both surf. Novels and they were my, , lockdown project really during COVID. , And because I'm an author, I can drop everything and go surfing whenever I like. I, I'm full-time. So, , I tend to do that. And then I'll, you know, I might work late at night or on the weekend or whatever, but if the surf's good, I can go. So, living in Auckland means you got access within an hour to both coasts. . Which is cool. We haven't had much on the east coast lately, but , west Coast is pretty consistent, and weirdly you'd think that Auckland would be quite crowded, but there's so many options, you know, so it's actually not that bad. You can usually find a wave on your own or just with a couple others. So yeah, it's good. It's a good place to live. It's not incredible surf, but yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah. I lived in Auckland for a couple of years and got heaps of good relatively uncrowded waves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got a few secret spots. , I've got one on the east coast that you can only get to by boat, so when there's swell I'll go there. Yep. , And I've never, never surfed it with anybody else, so I, that's my, , I find the older I get the, the less I, uh, or the more I avoid crowds. So I don't tend to go to Raglin or any of those places very much. , Just look for the spots that I know will be good and I don't mind if they take me a little bit of extra time to get there, a bit of a hike or boat ride or whatever. Yeah. So, uh, it's worth it, , and plus I've got the time and the means, you know, so it's good. Yeah. Adventure surfing. Yeah, yeah, I should get the right. I went surfing and uh, I went surfing at the spot on the west coast. , And I was out, I was on my own. It was cooking, it was really good. And, um, just small, but really punchy. And, and then I looked, I looked back on the beach and the beach was kind of a long way away. It was a long sort of. Long flat beach and then suddenly drops off. I saw this log where I thought was a log and there was heaps of seagulls on top of it, and I thought, oh yeah, that's interesting. And then all these people came around, the headland are wearing hazmat suits and carrying these big, you know, machetes and all kinds of stuff. And , it turns out the log was a enormous sperm whale. That had washed up on the beach. Mm. And one of my mates is a, shark specialist and a under underwater cameraman. And he gave me, he told me, he said, don't surf there. Don't surf there for the next month or more. Because when the whales die on the beach, all of the kind of juices flow down into the sand and leach out into the sea. And the sharks just love it, you know? Oh yeah. And I've seen sharks a couple of times at this place before. , But it was, again, a bit of a learning for me. You know, I had no idea that that was the case. That yeah, I mean, it, it makes sense really. But I didn't, I thought if they washed right, it was right up past the, , on the high tide mark. I thought if it was up there all good, you know, I never really thought of the breakdown of the animal and how it goes out to see, you know? Yeah. That's another, another. Good. I didn't know that either actually. Yeah. Yeah. Avoid it. Avoid it until it's long rotted and gone, you know? Yeah. What were they doing in Hazmats when? Oh, that was the iwi, you know, that was the, um, iwi. They were up from re and they were coming down and they were, , taking the jawbone of the whale out for carving. Um, but all the big chunks of blubber just get buried on the beach, so that all just breaks down and seeps out into the water. Oh, gnarly. So do you have any personal mad surf stories? Uh, nothing crazy, . Just the normal getting whipped out in a rip and freaking myself out for 20 minutes until I figure out a way to get back in. Just stuff like that, you know? Yeah. A few, uh, a few rescues have overturned kayaks and bits and pieces. Oh yeah. But I reckon most, I reckon most surfers have saved a few people, you know? Mm. Yeah. I think we're a, I think we're a, , and in fact, I dunno if you listened to my episode with, um, will Allen, he's the, he was a doctor, he was a trainee doctor at the time in Dunedin. And a surfer. And he did this incredible rescue, , off Tyre mouth where they were just about to get in the water and they saw there was an upturn boat and they went out to it. , Rescued a mom, a dad, and there was a, a young 12-year-old girl who was, whose life check the boat was completely upside down their life check. It was caught on something in the boat and he had to free her up. Then mouth to mouth with her on the way and CPR on the way back to shore. And unfortunately, one of the, , there was a baby still caught in the boat, , who died. But um, yeah, so he's gone on to do a lot of work, , around drowning. , And a lot of training of surfers because he realizes that, , surfers are often the ones that come across these people first or may drag them out of the water first. So, yeah, that, that was an interesting one. . And I think, you know, it's like, I mean, I guess most people do a, a first aid course probably, , from time to time, you know, but as a surfer, having that staff and having that knowledge is. You know, good chance you'll get to use it at some point. Yeah, I did all that stuff. I, as a qualified surf coach in Australia, went through all that stuff and, and then of course the breath hold training stuff for bigger waves. A lot of that sort of incorporated in it too, so I've never had to use it, I don't think, per se. I can't think of an instance where I have had,, but invaluable, , information to, to have for sure. 'cause otherwise you just feel helpless. Right. And that's even worse. Yeah. Potentially. But yeah, that was, that was for sure. Yeah. That was an hourly story. Yeah. I listened to that one on the weekend actually. I've listened to all of them. Yeah. There's been some pretty heavy, , kind of psychological implications from a lot of these guys that I've spoken to. Daniel Pool, who was caught in the Indian Ocean, the tsunami, the Boxing Day Tsunami. . When he had to, , when he had to wa he was kind of looking after his group of people and he walked past, he had to walk past a bust that had been overturned possibly with people in it, you know, and he still thinks about it to this day, whether. He should have peeled off and tried to help those people rather than looking after his own group. You know? 'cause he kind of, he was kind of leading them really, and looking after them. Yeah. But yeah, a lot of, a lot of hard stuff to deal with, you know, and that And Will Ellen having to deal with the loss of that baby? , Yeah, it's heavy. Some of the stories have been so heavy, like they've gone a whole lot deeper than I ever kind of thought, you know? Yeah, I need to, I need to uh, get a few more people, , that just have tales of awesome exploration. , I don't know, maybe taking a yacht through window or something like that, or traveling the African coast or whatever. 'cause most of them have been pretty heavy, , disasters. Really? Yeah. They have been. Yeah. But they're good. Like what, what's the South African guy who was like. His was the most gnarly, right. I reckon in, yeah. Turns survival. Yeah. Brett Archibald. Yeah. Yeah. His survival story. Wow. Like and he is such a good storytelling. Yeah. Elliot and his mates. Yeah. Elliot and his mates had surfboards and they did two days and he did, he didn't have one. Right. So he just fell overboard when he was. He was throwing up on deck from a bad Cals only. Yeah. And then he blacked out and fell overboard. It's terrible. Oh yeah. Goodness. Oh, , his uniqueness of character is probably what saves him ultimately, right? Yeah. Yeah. He would just, he would give up and then he'd go, no, I'm not giving up. And he'd, you'd swim to the surface again, you know? Yeah. It's incredible. Even the doctor said, like, what? He purposely swam into some jellyfish 'cause he wanted to give up and that's, you know, that allergic reaction gave him an adrenaline rush, which then made him fight again. Yeah. You know, sends you on things like that. Like, like what, what a story. I came across his story on a, on another podcast and. I was blown away by it, but it was kind, it was called, um, and it's a good one to listen to. It's called Real survival stories. Dunno if you've come across it, but, you know, guys getting caught in the mountains or, you know, their hang gliding and their glider gets blown up into a cloud or all this mad stuff. It's really good. But, , but the, the host of that podcast, um, this guy John Hopkins, he pretty much tells the story and then just drops in little, , little bits of recordings from the person that happened to. But I really liked Brett telling that story in his own words, you know? . It was, he's quite, quite a character, you know, and he's a good sense of humor, but he is just to hear, you know, that, that, that's the thing, like those stories in the carpark, when you hear it from the horse's mouth, it's just like, whoa. It just blows you away. Oh yeah. There's another guy, there's another guy I wanna get hold of that, , that I don't even know his name. I can't even, I, I haven't been able to track him down like this. Never made, I don't think it ever made the news or anything, but. There's a place called Lake Ferry up in, , near Palace Bay. Bottom of the North Island. Yep. And it's, I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's just the steepest, gnarliest beach. And when the waves like, you know, the, you sort of need the, , the water to empty out of this lake to create a little bar for the waves to break on. And then. That'll get blocked up again and the waves will wash this bar away and then it's just pounding on the beach. But the problem with it is like, the waves can be amazing, but the problem is when you go to go in, because the, the beach is so steep, the waves just rear up right on the beach, slam into these stones and then suck back out. So you gotta time it perfectly to get up the beach. And I had a friend that went out on like a three foot day, three, four foot day, and he said it took him 20 minutes to get in. And there was a guy that, , went out, it was like eight foot and he just couldn't get in. And it took, he was out there for hours, people, and he, his board broke and then people chucked him another one and it was just mayhem and he couldn't get in. I think, I think they send a chop to get him out of the water in the end, like he couldn't get in. Yep. Wow. Crazy stuff. Yeah. So if you hear of him, Dylan might wanna talk to him. Yeah. Well may maybe he's listening in and he'll reach out. Yeah. Yeah. We surf, there's a similar, not as, the beach isn't as steep here along Marine Parade, but it is very steep shingle and we have river mouths. Yeah. That when the river floods, it pushes a, a u-shaped, , barreling wave or bar out there for the whale waves to barrel on. And the waves get Really? Yeah. I've surfed, I've surfed. I know the one you're talking about. I've surfed. , That one. , There's a good story there too. Um, a young fellow who got whipped out in the, uh, in the river, and they picked him up 17 kilometers out to sea. Oh, wow. He's yet to talk to me too. Yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, wow. You haven't heard that one? I thought that was legendary in your area. Oh, it doesn't, it doesn't ring a bell, but I'm not surprised. Yeah, well it was crack of dawn, you see, and he was on his own and it had been pouring with rain and the river was honking. You know, you gotta swim across the river or paddle across the river to get to the, to this break you're talking about. Yeah. And he just didn't make the other side. He just oof gone. Yep. And next thing. And it was just howling offshore and he, he was almost blind when they picked him up. There's some footage of a, of the helicopter coming to get him. So someone was filming on the as they came in to pick him up. Yeah. And he was 17 Ks off offshore. Oh, wow. And he tried to paddle to Cape Kidnappers and tried all kinds of stuff and just, just got nowhere. Oh, gnarly. Oh yeah. There's a lot of water coming out of those rivers when they flood, man. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I learned a pretty hard lesson there. You, you need the water for the bar, don't you? Exactly. Yeah, . Oh yeah. When I was younger, I remember pulling up to a river mouth and it was flooded and there was a nice swell running, and the waves looked like they were pumping, like just top to bottom barrel, like pitch black inside the barrel. It's how you know, like the kind of pitches you draw at school. Yeah, and there was no one surfing. And I was like, okay, I am out there. And I'd probably only been surfing for maybe three, four, maybe five years. And this was back when I was young. And i'd broken my leash, so the only leash, leg rope I had. Was was a longboard leash that had been stretched out, must have been 11 foot long, but it was the only le leg rope that I had. And I was like, I'm out there paddled across. And I just remember paddling into my first attempt, or the only attempt, the first wave. And because the, the rivers. Pushing out and it creates the bar for the wave to break on, break on, but it actually creates a lot of draw. So it kind of breaks like an extreme, extreme rip bowl, which makes the wave better and more rippable and when it's manageable, but it also makes it a lot harder to paddle into. Yeah. And I was so excited 'cause the waves looked pumping and I was inexperienced and I tried to paddle into this wave and immediately just went over the handlebars, slammed down into the gravel, and then I'm, now I'm in a flooded river. Getting sucked underneath and then the surfboard wraps around me like this and around my arms. 'cause I'd, I went to go and, you know, put my hands over my head, but I didn't have time. 'cause by the time my arms got to here, the surf, the leash, the leg ropes wrapped around my arms couldn't move. Starting, it's pulling tight and then the surfboard's like doing this 'cause it's wrapped around me. It's here. I've still got a scar on my nose from it, so I'm getting, I'm wrapped up in my own leg rope of , couldn't move. My arms being dragged along the gravel bottom on a flooded river. Seconds after I thought I was gonna get the best barrel of my life. And yeah, I thought it was gone. I thought that was it. I couldn't move. That's cool. I'm getting dragged under. I don't know how long I was under for, um, it was probably only 30 seconds, but it felt like minutes and I guess eventually I just got to a point where the river started to dissipate into the ocean. , And the tension on the leg rope started to ease and I was able to wriggle free and swim up. I came up and everything was, like I had red glasses on and I didn't, you know, I didn't breathe in any water or anything. I was, I ended up being fine, but it was, yeah, you're on the edge. It was an intense experience. It was a hard lesson to learn. Yeah, I reckon that's freakish. That is freakish. Yeah. Actually, I listened to one of your episodes, there just the other day. , And it was, can you still get better when you're, you know, when you're getting old? Because I'm 50, what am I 52 now? And I reckon I've kind of been getting better because I started late. I don't think I got to that really good level. It took me a long time. So I, I don't know, maybe it's a good thing to start late 'cause it is quite enjoyable thinking that you're still getting better even when you're like. Nearly 50, but I reckon that's changed and started to go downhill a bit for sure in the last three years. But your episode was quite inspiring, but my boy, I've got two boys, one's 18, one's 16, and, uh, they like a bit of juice now, you know? And the last time I went out with the two of them, it was big, you know, it was gruy and I got absolutely owned. I got a, got a huge one. Wiped out on a big one and then got two or three really beautiful ones right on the head, like they're kind of progressively smaller, these waves as I was coming in, which meant they just landed right on me and shit. I was like, oh my, am I gonna die here? Like I was actually really, really worried and I cut. I just groveled and had to sit on the beach for a little while to collect myself, but it was quite a lesson. I was like, oh, could you know, 10 years ago that would've been all right? It would've been fine. It would've been rattled, but. I was like, oh, that was close. You know, I was seeing stars here. Yeah. So that's, yeah. Getting old sucks. What are you gonna do? Yeah, it does, it does. But I mean, I, if you're gonna surf waves of consequence, you you have to train for it, don't we? I don't think at any age. I don't think it's escapable at any age. Obviously when you're young, you're, you know, a bit more rubbery and, and fit naturally. But, uh, yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you found that episode inspiring. Yeah, tell me though, your breath hold. Can you increase your breath hold when you're my age? Of course. Yeah. Yeah, think so? Oh, definitely a hundred percent. I used to be able to do like two minutes underwater or even a little more, you know, 60 meters in a pool or something. But now that's, yeah, I don't know. I can't do anything like that. You triple. Quadruple your breath. Hold within one training session if you're, if you want to. I've done that with Nam Baldwin. A lot of it's just mindset and having the ability to Yeah. Right. To control your nervous system. 'cause what uses up, what uses up all the oxygen is you freaking out. Yeah. Really. So if you, which is what I was doing. Yeah. Yeah. So going through a course. Like I, I went through back in the day with, with Nam where, you know, you sit down for a couple hours and you go through the science and then you jump in the pool and you go through the practicalities and you put it into practice. Just changes the game really. So the answer is yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, definitely. But, you know, go need to come over and have a session with you. Like I, I, I get quite, I'm quite fascinated with that fear side of things, i've done loads of sports, but I've never, I think surfing is the one that's given me the greatest level of fear. 'cause I mean, you know, I've done, I've, I've skied to a pretty high level and we were jumping off some pretty high stuff, but you sit at the top and you can, you can check all the factors and then you can psych yourself up and then you can go, you know? , But with, and I've done some whitewater kayaking, which was kind of scary, like when you go over waterfalls and things, but. Surfing's a bit more outta control, right? 'cause you can't, you don't know what's gonna happen when you paddle over that wave and see what's coming at you. There's no control there. Even with a river and you're kayaking, you can sit up above a rapid for a while and get yourself sorted, pick your line, all of that stuff. But, and, and you know that, that water is, even though you know, surfing is kind of a unique sport, and that two things are moving you and the medium that you are, you know, that you are working in and kayaking. It's moving as well, but it's moving in a uniform way. It doesn't, doesn't change, but waves, they're moving along and the, the bathymetry of the bottom changes, suddenly the just, , the bottom will drop out or whatever will happen. . But that, that fear is, um, I've always found it fascinating. You know, I've never been a big wave rider, really. You know, I'm pretty uncomfortable once it gets up, past six foot, to be honest, like I'm like. I'm, I'm happy there, but anything bigger than that, I'm like, okay, leave this to the big boys and that, and I just can't believe, I, I just can't fathom how guys can go out and 15, 20 foot, you know? I just, I don't even, it doesn't even compute for me. Oh, yeah. Like, I'm, I'm okay with it. I don't really want to do that, but I just can't believe how brave some people are. You know? But I guess that's, it's doing all those things right? Putting the training in place and doing the psychological stuff and getting the breath hold and the whole thing. It doesn't just happen. You gotta build up to it. Yeah, there's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes. I've only really done it once where I surfed an outer reef that was, you know, triple overhead. And when you surf the outer reefs, the swell itself is just moving so much faster. So it, it's, it's almost like a different sport. And I trained for, I was in the gym, you know, three times a week for a year doing breath holding courses and training and. To leading up towards that winter to surf one of these swells. And I mean, I, I don't think I'd ever do it again. I don't regret nothing happened, nothing bad happened. , I got some of the best waves of my life and surfed the, some of the biggest waves of my life. But the come down the next day, like, yeah. The body obviously really sore 'cause you're getting thrown around. But just the depression man from you, you, you end up going so high surfing these waves. 'cause it's like surfing but everything's intensified. And the depression the next day is something that I don't, in hindsight, I don't know if it was worth it when you weigh up the risk that you, you know, the work that took to get there, the risk that you're, you're taking to do it. The come down afterwards and the desire to do it again. 'cause that adrenaline rush is next level. Like those guys that do big wave surfing like that on a regular basis, they're, they're, they are different animals, man. They're different machines. Yeah. Sounds like a drug addiction, doesn't it? It's certainly, well a lot of them end up, you know, doing that as well. Yeah, true. A lot of stories in surfing of, of that as well. But I mean, yes, you can get better as as you get older, but I think it, it matters on how do you define better? Do you know? Do you know what I mean? Like, is it surfing a different Yeah. What, what is the style of surf? Because I think for years, myself included, I was a victim, maybe that's not the right word, but also. The surf industry was telling me what board to ride, what style of surfing to do, do you know what I mean? I you constantly fear of being judged, so when you go no stuff, all that. I just want to, I just, I'm happy get taking a bigger board and going and surfing over there where no one else is surfing and catching the novelty waves, but getting 20 of them in 20 minutes. Because no one else is there, rather than going over there and trying to get three to the beach off the crowd. So that's part of it too. , And you mentioned, yeah, I mean, PE people say buy a longboard, but I, I find longboarding boring as shit. I want to still ride my shortboard, still want to try and get barreled if I can. , That's where, that's the super exciting stuff, but it's just annoying when you're like. On a good wave and you're like, oh, I might hit the lip here, and you'll just blow it and you just know because you haven't, you're not fit enough or you haven't done enough surfing or you, you're just getting old and your reactions are slow. , My kids skateboarded and uh, when I was about 40, I reckon, or. Maybe, yeah, about 40. I was like, oh, I used to be able to do a bit of this. Go on the skateboard. Like the reactions when you fall, you just don't have those same, like they just sort of step off. But I would get flat onto the pavement, you know, that's, I was just, my reactions are way too slow. . And there's nothing much you can do about that. I think, you know, that's just, just a factor of getting old. You probably get a little bit wiser as a surfer in terms of. Reading what a Wave's gonna do and setting up a little earlier, you know, in fact, I'm sure when you see Kelly Slater trying to do hes and stuff, he doesn't pull many of them off anymore. . You know, but he, but put 'em in 10 foot pipe. He's like the man, you know, he can just slot it just beautifully. But when he is trying to do these tricky little maneuvers on small waves, he's just not quick enough. He doesn't have that reaction time like he used to. . Yeah. But he's a good example of someone who hasn't let go of, you know, he still wa he, I guess in, there's probably a small part of Kelly Slater's that still wants to be able to beat Philippe, Felipe Toledo and be as fast and as quick as him. Yeah. And I'm sure that just though, really, like there's no way. Yeah. And it, whereas you look at someone like Skip Fry, who's just happy to, to Highline on a glider. Style in his, in his eighties, you know? Yeah. And he's, and Joel t will say he's the best surfer in the world. So it's, it kind of of does depend on your perspective and what you think better is, and it's, you do have to have quick reactions in some ways, but also I think as you get older, as a surfer, you get better at predicting the waves. So there isn't a need for quick reactions because you're just better at predicting the wave anyway. Yeah. I guess it depends on what feels the best to you on a wave. Like what feels the best to me is if I go up and hit the lip and do a turn, I'll go shit that felt good. You know? That's what I like doing. And it's, it's the, it's the stuff of a younger man really to do it really well. I mean, of course we can do it, but those, the guys that are doing it the best are the young men, you know? So I'm never gonna be able to hit the lip like I could when I was 40 or 45 maybe. 'cause I think I still was getting better at that point. But. You know, it's only downhill from here. I think, like I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I think the more, if I want to maintain that, you've gotta train much harder, I reckon, as you get older. Oh yeah. In order to maintain the same level, you know, and that's, that's time and effort. And , someone will go, do you want a beer? Come around for a beer or whatever. I'll be like, okay, you know? Here's some canon beer on a cracker, and I'll have a couple of those. Next thing you know, I get on the scales in a week and I'm like, oh geez, I put on a couple of kilos. Yeah, over Christmas, whatever. You just get a bit relaxed, I think, and you don't burn off the, you don't burn it all off like you used to, and it, it requires more effort, you know, requires more discipline, more effort, more time, probably, I think, than when you're a young man. That's the way it goes though. I'm alright with it. I'm at peace. I know I don't sound like I am, but I am. I still enjoy it. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's the main thing, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But you mentioned fear and that that does come a lot into it, especially, I think a lot of surfers don't even realize how scared they are because a lot of the, I think a lot of the fears that we have of surfing is, is sort of unconscious because your brain. Whether you, you realize it or not, your brain knows how dangerous the ocean is. , You might not realize that you're essentially a victim of a shark attack or a tsunami to, to think of the extremes. But then of course, everyone knows there's a rogue set every hour. And there's, you maybe didn't read that rip properly or someone ditches their board in front of you or, I mean, the, the list of ways that things can go wrong when you're surfing is, is endless. And whether you are consciously aware of that doesn't matter. 'cause your brain is, and if you haven't prepared or consciously thought through those risks, then that's essentially taking away from you entering a flow state. And when we enter a flow state. That's when your reaction times, uh, switched on and where you're not necessarily Yeah. Thinking. So it is to do with that, and I think everyone feels that. Yeah. And you feel that sometimes when you surf. Right? Sometimes I, , it'll be big and I'll go to paddle in and then I'll pull back and I'll be like, oh, what I pull back for, you know, you know, I know that I'm scared. Like I, , the bottom's dropped out and I'm looking at a, you can see the reef, and I'm like, holy shit. But then other times you're just like. You know, I, I don't, you don't seem to feel any fear. Like, and you just, your feet hit the middle of the board every time and it doesn't seem to make much sense, but I know what you mean. That flow state is awesome and it's kind of one of the, I guess one of those things that, it's one of those reasons that we keep coming back. Surfing's such, like, there's so much hard work for kind of small reward. I mean, it's all, it's not small reward, but those times that you hit that flow state or get that perfect wave or get barreled or sew. For me anyway. They're so rare that it's like a gem, ? It's like a golden moment. It's like, oh my God, it's amazing. You know, that, that, that happened today. You'd be buzzing for days after it, you know, after one. It could be one good wave. Yes, and I've got this really weird, um, I've talked to my mates about this. It's kind of weird. I, I can remember waves from when I was 18 or 19 or, you know, all of, you know, for the last 30 years I can remember particular waves that I've had. And I tell them, they're like, what are you talking about? Like, I can't remember individual waves, but I can remember those waves. It's really weird. But it's just those times where everything comes together, you're like, whoa, I surfed that like a guy that's been much better than me. You know? And that just like gives you that little glimpse of what, what might happen a bit more often if you keep going. Yeah. Yeah. You keep going. Sounds a bit like a drug addict, doesn't it? Yeah. But it's a, it's a healthy addiction vibe if you can manage it. Yeah, of course it is. Yeah. No, I'm save selfish creatures though, that's for sure. Like I, you know, as a, I'm sure so many surfers will relate to this . Your misses will go, oh, , where are we going holidays this summer, or should we go there? And you're like, there's no, there's no serious thing. We're not going there. Oh yeah, that sounds all right. But what about this? And you'll manipulate and you'll squeeze and you'll suggest, and you'll go, oh, there's no batch. , There's no batches available there. We better go to this other place instead. And you leave it too late so there's no accommodation or whatever. But we're terrible manipulative, , like drug addicts are, oh, that's all right. It's surfing. It's gotta be done. You gotta have something, right? Yeah. Yeah. I do feel sorry for all those, , well, women and men, they have to suffer for, for their surfer in their life. Well, most people like the beach, right. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. That's, that's, that's all we, we've got all these, yeah, we've got all these incredible like great walks in New Zealand, like world renowned walks. I haven't done a single one of them 'cause for the last 30 years, anytime I get a bit of time off, I go to the coast. Haven't done a single walk. Milford track the root band. Not a single of them. Terrible. Oh yeah. I think I'm the same. But you've probably been to more beaches than most people. Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah. I got a, I got a chart on my wall of all the places I've surf and it's, it's pretty full. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it keeps you, you know, motivated to get up early and, you know, stay fit and strong, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's that, , it's that quest to find that, um. That empty wave, that perfect wave somewhere is just so strong. Like with, without anyone else around. Actually, that's, so the, , my book mine that is the kind of, that's kind of the, uh, the motivation behind it. So have you read this? No. Have you read mine? So mine is, , I don't know if you remember about six or seven years ago, um, there was a guy called John Chow and he was an American missionary and he went to this island in the Indian Ocean called the, north Sentinel Island. Do you hear of this? No. So North Sentinel is this, , tiny little island and the Enderman Sea. Indian Ocean. Yeah. And it's part of that group, of the Nicobar Islands. And it's, so they reckon the people that lived there have been there 60,000 years without any human contact from the outside or very little. So John Chow went there 'cause he heard about them and he thought, well they need to be, you know, I'm a missionary. They need to be turned to Christianity. He turned up and they murdered him on the beach. And the Indian government, which, , administers that part of the world wouldn't even pick up his body. So because they were, they just. Won't be contacted. If you try and go there, they'll fire at you with bows and arrows. They're amazing. When I heard about this, I just went down this rabbit hole, and if you look, if you go to North Sentel Island on Google Maps and you zoom in on it, and the south of the island are two of the best surfing setups I think I've ever seen. It's like a mirror image breaking into this path and , it's perfect. And every time that Google updates this image, it's just better every time. It's unbelievable. It looks so good. So I was like, whoa, that's a good set setting for a book. But I had to come up with this. So I came up with this Aussie guy who's, his life's kind of turning to shit and Aussie, and he goes to Indo and he's just sickened by the tourists and the crowds and the filth, and he just keeps going up, up, up the archipelago. , And he ends up going to, he meets this fisherman who can, who brings him to North Sentinel. And then I had to come up with this premise that would be believable. Why he would not be killed if he ended up on the island. And , I won't tell you, I won't tell you what that is, but he ends up on this island in every surfer's dream of paradise with nine different, perfect waves on it. Wow. And , chaos ensues. So it's quite interesting. , Yeah, it's, it's been, it's been, , an awesome kind of journey with that book. Like it, you know, I, I. Get told about people that have taken it on, on board their surf charter for 10 days and it's gone through every single one of their mates, , as they're going around surfing these waves in this area. So, , yeah, so that's one of the books. And the other one is Lines, which is set in Ireland. 'cause I lived in Ireland for eight years and , kind of got a little bit involved in the surf scene there. , I've set that one in a, kind of the backdrop as a kind of brutal Dublin criminal drug smuggling gang, , and the waves on the West coast. So, yeah, they've been fun. Oh, cool. Yeah. I think I've listened to a few chapters inadvertently at the end of your, your podcast. Oh, yeah. Cool. I'll send you the book. Cool. I'll post it over to you. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Is it the, the Aussie guy who came upon his father? I remember that chapter in the garage. Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha. That was heavy. That's from mine. That one's from mine. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was actually, weirdly, there's a, , I think there's a movie coming out, a Kevin Costner movie called Head Hunters. And apparently it's about a guy, a surfer in Indonesia who's real sick of everything and goes and finds this perfect paradise island with perfect surf on it. Like, hold on a minute. That sounds like my story. So I'm waiting for it to come out before I sue. You know, you might get some royalties in the post. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully. I doubt it. So do I. You gotta, , you gotta go to LA and pitch your idea. Yeah. Too late probably. Yeah. There is, , some movie interest in the, , in the Lines book though. Oh yeah. There's some people looking at making that to a film. That's kind of all I can say at the moment. Yep. And apparently if anything gets ever gets made into a film, it's a miracle. So I'm kind of crossing my fingers, but not really we'll. . Yeah. I think it's a lot to do with who you know in the industry. Yeah. So it's getting the money. Yeah. Have all the guys with the good ideas, but unless someone goes, yep, yeah, I'll give you the money, it's not gonna, exactly. Yeah. Ideas are a dime a dozen, they say, and you only have to change something, what, 20% anyway. Right. And then you lose all. Legal rights anyway, so Dunno about that. Yeah, I think that's the case. Kevin Costner, hopefully he only changed to 15%. Oh, I say you're smarter than that. Yeah. Or his lawyers are. Yeah, they certainly are. That's how the world works. Well, , I encourage people to go out and listen to your podcast. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Tell us what it's called and where to find it. It's called Mad Surf Stories. It's on, apple Podcasts. , It's on Spotify and put 'em on YouTube as well. Awesome. , I've listened to every episode and I'm looking forward to hearing more. Yeah. And actually if anyone out there has got some mad surf stories, get in touch. I need some more. I've run out at the moment. I need some more people to come and have a chat to me. Okay. Have you reached out to Rob Bain? Rob ba No, he's, what did he do? , He was surfing in New South Wales and jumped off his board, landed headfirst into a rock and basically scalp scalped himself. Oh, that's not good. Yeah, I think he broke his neck as well. Well, it's been a, he, I interviewed him years ago. It's been a while. It was a mad surf story. Was he jumping off a rock or a boat? , You No, I'm just jumping off a wave. Oh, right. Oh no, that's not good. Yeah. Flyaway sort of thing. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, because you often do that, eh? When you, you like right at the end of the wave and you're like, oh, squeeze a bit more juice out of this. Yep. Next thing you know, look. Ooh, that's shallow. Yep. Tom Carroll must have some mad surf stories. Yeah. Oh, there there'd be millions. Yeah, there millions. I just need them to get in touch really. Yeah. Yep. Okay. And how can they get in touch? It was, I got, you can email me [email protected]. Yep. And website's same. So if you listen to the podcast. Yeah. www.Dragonbrothersbooks.com. Yep. , And that'll take you to all of my books and stuff, but, , there's a contact form on there. Yeah. Yep. Oh, I'm sure there's at least one person listening that is willing to share a story or knows someone that can, , share Yeah, your email address or this episode too, so, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Please do. Yeah, and I look forward to hearing more. Nice one. Thanks Michael. Alright, James, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks having me. Alright. Sweet. Yeah. Thank you. 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