From Suing the Man to Serving the Man, with Lucas Guttentag

What happens when you spend decades suing the government, and then help run the government? Back in the 1980s, Lucas Guttentag started the Immigrant Rights Project at the ACLU. He and his team argued hugely consequential cases across the country and all the way to the Supreme Court, securing fundamental due process and nondiscrimination rights for the most vulnerable immigrant communities. Then, during the Obama and Biden eras, Lucas went to work for his longtime courtroom opponents: the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Justice. We’ll explore the games lawyers play, what it’s like to pursue change from inside a giant bureaucracy, how the courts became a potent weapon for anti-immigrant forces – and, in the end, how to win. ==Learn More== Amanda, Claire, and Doug express their own personal opinions on The Melting Pod. This episode was produced by Michael Palmer (⁠palmer.media⁠). Read more about the topics in this episode: * Immigration Policy Tracking Project - a project of Professor Lucas Guttentag with Stanford and Yale law students * The Heartbreak of Immigration Reform, with Esther Olavarria - The Melting Pod (March 2026) * American Baptist Churches (ABC) v. Thornburgh - Library of Congress: A Latinx Resource Guide * The U.S. Supreme Court and Obama's Immigration Actions [DAPA] - Council on Foreign Relations (June 2016) * Dismantle, Don't Expand: The 1996 Immigration Laws - Immigrant Defense Project (May 2017) * 20 Years of Immigrant Abuses - Human Rights Watch (Apr. 2016) * The Race to Dismantle Trump’s Immigration Policies - New Yorker (Feb. 2021) * W. Haywood Burns, 55, Dies; Law Dean and Rights Worker - New York Times (Apr. 1996) ==Give More== Want to help build a more sane and humane immigration system? Support hardworking organizations like these: National: * ⁠#AfghanEvac⁠ – working to ensure the U.S. keeps its promise to our Afghan allies * ⁠Asylum Seeker Advocacy Project⁠ – the country’s largest membership organization of asylum seekers, working together for change * ⁠Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI)⁠ – organizing and advocating for racial, social and economic justice * ⁠Haitian Bridge Alliance⁠ – providing humanitarian, legal, and social services * ⁠International Refugee Assistance Project (IRAP)⁠ - strategic litigation and advocacy to uphold the rights of people seeking safety * ⁠Justice Action Center⁠ - immigrant justice through litigation and storytelling Local: * ⁠Al Otro Lado⁠ - legal and humanitarian support to refugees, deportees, and other migrants in the U.S. and Tijuana * ⁠Catholic Charities Rio Grande Valley⁠ - providing assistance to the poor and most vulnerable populations in the Rio Grande Valley community * ⁠Las Americas Immigrant Advocacy Center⁠ - free and low-cost legal services to immigrants and refugees in West Texas, New Mexico, and Ciudad Juarez, Mexico * ⁠Support an immigration service provider near you⁠ ==Chapters== (0:00:00) Introduction (0:02:10) Who is Lucas Guttentag? (0:06:06) The ABC case that changed asylum (0:12:10) Truth and lies about marriage fraud (0:16:42) The St. Cyr case that affirmed habeas rights for detainees (0:19:55) How does one go from fighting the government to being part of the government? (0:26:22) DHS vs. DOJ rivalries (0:33:46) Games that DOJ lawyers play (0:39:36) How does the DOJ bureaucracy work? (0:47:06) Who decides what’s legal? (0:57:07) The tragedy of DAPA (Deferred Action for Parents of Americans) (1:03:20) How has immigration law evolved in the courts? (1:09:00) The real scandal is the abuses that are legal (1:13:20) Do you feel optimistic? See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.