Season 4, Episode 12 | Was the Constitution Anti-Slavery? How Frederick Douglass Changed His Mind

America was born with a promise and a lie. Frederick Douglass lived in the gap. How did a fugitive slave become one of the nation’s most radical constitutional thinkers? Why did he reject the Garrisonian view of the Constitution as a “covenant with death” and come to see it as anti-slavery? In this episode of This Constitution, Matthew Brogdon sits down with Bradley  Rebeiro, law professor at Brigham Young University and author of Until the Last Yoke Is Broken: The Constitutional Vision of Frederick Douglass. Together they trace slavery and race from the Revolution through Dred Scott, the Civil War, and Reconstruction. They begin with slavery in 1776, Somerset v. Stewart, Black enlistment in the Continental Army, Lord Dunmore’s Proclamation, and gradual emancipation in the North. The conversation turns to Black citizenship, the Naturalization Act of 1790, and Dred Scott’s claim that Blacks had “no rights which white men are bound to respect.” Rebeiro explains Douglass’s response that Taney could not change the nature of things by his words, and his view that the executive may interpret the Constitution independently. The episode explores Douglass’s 1852 “Change of Opinion Announced,” his break with Garrisonians, and his argument that the Constitution was anti-slavery in principle but betrayed in administration. That conviction drove his push for Black enlistment and his focus on suffrage as the hallmark of citizenship. Tune in to discover how Douglass’s “rational hope” challenges America to meet its founding principles. In This Episode [00:08] Meet Brad Rebeiro [00:47] Slavery in 1776 [02:25] Somerset v. Stewart and natural law [05:09] Black enlistment in the Revolution [06:49] Gradual abolition and the Hamilton–Laurens plan [09:33] Lord Dunmore and Britain's offer of freedom [11:22] No clear sides for the enslaved [13:56] Citizenship at the founding [16:23] Taney's opinion in Dred Scott [18:13] The dissents and the founding record [19:35] Black voters and the ratifying conventions [21:28] The 14th Amendment and birthright citizenship [23:33] Frederick Douglass in public life [25:30] Douglass answers Dred Scott [27:59] Douglass and departmentalism [29:16] From Garrisonian to constitutional abolitionist [30:37] "Change of Opinion Announced" [33:04] Why Douglass wanted Black soldiers [34:33] Douglass meets Lincoln [38:31] Suffrage after the Civil War [40:50] Bringing it back to the Revolution [43:20] Douglass's "rational hope"  Notable Quotes (02:59) “Unless you have a law specifically mandating or protecting one's property in slavery, you must free that slave.” - Brad Rebeiro  (16:58) “I respect the founders too much to think that they meant for the Declaration to be applied to Blacks because they were enslaving them.” — Brad Rebeiro on Taney’s reasoning in Dred Scott (25:54) “There are certain rights that derive from the natural law that are eternal principles and that are held equally by all individuals.” - Brad Rebeiro  (30:49) “The Constitution, he now believes, is an anti-slavery document. It's not this covenant with death, an agreement with hell that the Garrisonians had initially espoused.” - Brad Rebeiro  (33:53) “What better way to show your allegiance and that your allegiance means something than showing it on the battlefield?” - Brad Rebeiro  (39:10) “He is almost exclusively focused on one thing, suffrage, voting rights. That for him is the hallmark of true citizenship.” - Brad Rebeiro  (43:25) “The Founding Fathers seized on eternal principles.” - Brad Rebeiro  (43:51) “The skies, they’re stormy, but they’re not rayless.” — Brad Rebeiro on Douglass’s “rational hope” (44:27) “They actually penned in eternal principles, aspirational principles. And that's why he called at least the American project a rational hope.” - Brad Rebeiro  Resources and Links This Constitution   Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-constitution/id1771900485 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0IQCq5DUPWlImiAdc4t3pf?si=85085b24b55b4130 Website: https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/projects/this_constitution_podcast.html YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@centerforconstitutionalstu8915/videos Bradley  Rebeiro https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradley-rebeiro-696342a9 Until the Last Yoke Is Broken: The Constitutional Vision of Frederick Douglass (Harvard University Press) https://law.byu.edu/faculty/bradley-rebeiro Matthew Brogdon https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-brogdon-8a21bb89/ https://www.uvu.edu/ccs/people/matthew_brogdon.html Related Episodes  Season 4, Episode 11: The Newburgh Conspiracy: When Washington Saved the Republic (Again) Season 1, Episode 2: The Presidency (with Greg Jackson and Savannah Eccles Johnston) Season 4, Episode 9: Why Congress Can’t Run a War (But Won One Anyway) Episode on Carol Berkin discussing women’s roles during the Revolution Episode on the Articles of Confederation and the road to the Constitution