GrowthBusters
Dave Gardner and Stephanie Gardner on sustainability
Recent Episodes
Population growth is making headlines for the wrong reason or with a biased perspective. It's too easy to draw erroneous conclusions about dropping fertility rates around the world. A surge of news stories from NPR compels us to offer both praise and criticism. Population growth appears to be coming to an end, and that's getting all the oxygen, not the fact that we have an overpopulation crisis. In fact, the word "overpopulation" is not heard even once in the 16 stories we analyzed.
Because the subject is brushed under the rug, reported infrequently or inaccurately, widespread misunderstandings among the public and policymakers persist. So, we decided 16 stories about "smaller families," "low birth rates," "depopulation," and "population decline" in 4 months from National Public Radio offered a good opportunity for us to do some analysis and offer suggestions. Our hope is that reporting might improve if journalists listen to this episode.
We specifically mention NPR's Scott Simon, Brian Mann, Sarah McCammon, and Michel Martin. We also mention Wellesley College economist Phillip Levine, and offer some praise for The Rewilding Institute's John Davis. And we hear briefly from the U.N.'s Vladimira Kantorova in one of the stories. The work of these journalists also appeared in the NPR series: John Ruwitch, Jasmine Ling, Kristin Wright, Marisa Peñaloza, Hanna Merzbach, Christina Cala, Dalia Mortada, Michelle Jokisch Polo, Clara Hulet, Anthony Kuhn, Ayman Oghanna, and Code Switch podcast hosts Gene Demby and B.A. Parker.
NOTE: The image representing this episode was AI generated.
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
Population Shift: How Smaller Families are Changing the World (NPR series): https://www.npr.org/series/g-s1-94348/population-shift
Seven of Nine Planetary Boundaries Now Breached: https://www.stockholmresilience.org/news--events/general-news/2025-09-24-seven-of-nine-planetary-boundaries-now-breached.html
Fair Start Movement: https://fairstartmovement.org/model/
World Population Day: Rights of Children Eclipse What Parents "Want" – by Dave Gardner: https://medium.com/ending-overshoot/world-population-day-rights-of-children-eclipse-what-parents-want-e737d7b60d1b
World Scientists Warnings: https://scientistswarning.org/warnings/
The Racial History of the 'Overpopulation Time Bomb' and 'Pronatalism' MovementsHeard on Morning Edition, reported by Gene Demby and Michel Martinhttps://www.npr.org/2025/10/28/nx-s1-5551128/the-racial-history-of-the-overpopulation-time-bomb-and-pronatalism-movements
How Elon Musk and JD Vance Plan to 'Save Civilization' With More Babies – episode of Code Switch podcast, with Christina Cala, Dalia Mortada, Gene Demby and B.A. Parkerhttps://www.npr.org/2025/10/29/nx-s1-5588605/how-elon-musk-and-jd-vance-plan-to-save-civilization-with-more-babies
Busting Only-Child Myths – episode of Overshoot podcast: https://www.populationbalance.org/podcast/lauren-sandler
The Only Child: Debunking the Myths – Time magazine story by Lauren Sandler: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2002530,00.html
One and Only: The Freedom of Having an Only Child, and The Joy of Being One – book by Lauren Sandlerhttps://www.laurenosandler.com/the-book
Insist That Public Policy Respects the Rights of Children and Women – by Dave Gardnerhttps://fairstartmovement.org/insist-that-public-policy-respects-the-rights-of-children-and-women/
Economic Wisdom from the Natural World: The Serviceberry - episode 92 of the GrowthBusters podcast: https://www.growthbusters.org/serviceberry/
Book Club Choice:Abundant Earth Offers a Positive Vision for the Future – review of Abundant Earth, by Eileen Crist: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animal-emotions/201904/abundant-earth-offers-positive-vision-the-future
In Memory of Jane Goodall, Outspoken on Overpopulation – by Dave Gardnerhttps://davetheplanet.substack.com/p/in-memory-of-jane-goodall-outspoken
Dave the Planet - Dave's Substack Column: https://davetheplanet.substack.com/
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The GrowthBusters theme song was written and produced by Jake Fader and sung by Carlos Jones. https://www.fadermusicandsound.com/ https://carlosjones.com/
On the GrowthBusters podcast, we come to terms with the limits to growth, explore the joy of sustainable living, and provide a recovery program from our society's growth addiction (economic/consumption and population). This podcast is part of the GrowthBusters project to raise awareness of overshoot and end our culture's obsession with, and pursuit of, growth.
Dave Gardner directed the documentary GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth, which Stanford Biologist Paul Ehrlich declared "could be the most important film ever made." Co-host, and self-described "energy nerd," Stephanie Gardner has degrees in Environmental Studies and Environmental Law & Policy.
Join the GrowthBusters online community https://growthbusters.groups.io/
GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth – free on YouTube https://youtu.be/_w0LiBsVFBo
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Just say "NO." Some approaches to "abundance" are healthy, but one brand of abundance that's been capturing the cultural moment lately is a recipe for a dead planet. Dave and Stephanie assess key points made by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson in their book, Abundance. The result, a sound thrashing. The authors believe "America needs to build and invent more of the things it needs." They advocate eliminating regulatory barriers that are keeping us from getting more, faster. Conservation and environmental stewardship are not on the agenda.
Klein is a columnist for The New York Times and host of The Ezra Klein Show. Derek is a writer at The Atlantic and host of the Plain English podcast. They lean left, so many are suggesting the Democratic party should adopt "the abundance agenda" as it remakes itself in the wake of 2024 electoral defeat. In this episode, we make the case against that. We're not alone. Among the links we provide below are some additional thoughtful and articulate critiques of the book and agenda.
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
Economic Wisdom from the Natural World: The Serviceberry – episode 92 of the GrowthBusters podcasthttps://www.growthbusters.org/serviceberry/
Abundance – by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompsonhttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/176444106-abundance
The Elite's Fixation with Low Birth Rates – Overshoot podcast episode with Samuel Miller McDonaldhttps://www.populationbalance.org/podcast/samuel-miller-mcdonald
An Abundance of Concrete – by Ben Goldfarbhttps://defector.com/an-abundance-of-concrete
Colorado Matters episode with Ben Goldfarbhttps://www.cpr.org/2025/06/27/interview-ben-goldfarb-state-of-conservation/
Bezos: We're Going to Need Another Planet – episode 89 of the GrowthBusters podcasthttps://www.growthbusters.org/bezos-need-another-planet/
On Abundance - by The Last Farmhttps://www.resilience.org/stories/2025-07-16/on-abundance (Note: a good critique of "abundance" but a narrow solution. It's a good part of the solution, but not complete.)
Give Us Feedback:
- Record a voice message for us to play on the podcast: 719-402-1400
- Send an email to podcast at growthbusters.org
The GrowthBusters theme song was written and produced by Jake Fader and sung by Carlos Jones. https://www.fadermusicandsound.com/ https://carlosjones.com/
On the GrowthBusters podcast, we come to terms with the limits to growth, explore the joy of sustainable living, and provide a recovery program from our society's growth addiction (economic/consumption and population). This podcast is part of the GrowthBusters project to raise awareness of overshoot and end our culture's obsession with, and pursuit of, growth.
Dave Gardner directed the documentary GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth, which Stanford Biologist Paul Ehrlich declared "could be the most important film ever made." Co-host, and self-described "energy nerd," Stephanie Gardner has degrees in Environmental Studies and Environmental Law & Policy.
Join the GrowthBusters online community https://growthbusters.groups.io/
GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth – free on YouTube https://youtu.be/_w0LiBsVFBo
Join the conversation on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/GrowthBustersPodcast/
Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/growthbusting/
Follow us on Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/growthbusters.bsky.social
Make a donation to support this non-profit project. https://www.growthbusters.org/donate/
Archive of GrowthBusters podcast episodes http://www.growthbusters.org/podcast/
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Explore the issues at http://www.growthbusters.org
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In this trial run for the "GrowthBusters Book Club," we discuss The Serviceberry: Abundance and Reciprocity in the Natural World - by Robin Wall Kimmerer. Cannibal economies, gift economies, reciprocity, and doughnut economics all come up.
Sally Gillespie in her Substack column, Psyche's Nest wrote this about Kimmerer's book:
"As disruptions and destructions reach our communities in all manner of ways, acts of kindness and generosity are already challenging modernity's stories of 'never enough' and 'you're on your own'. Often led by those on the margins, we are remembering how to pool resources and gather for action and care as we tend to losses, connections, breakthroughs, emergencies and emergence. It seems to me that no one word is sufficient to describe this devolving and evolving process we are now in. What we need more than a word or a phrase are stories bearing ancient roots and seeds of possibility for the future."
We also talk briefly about President Trump's "big, beautiful bill" beautifully illustrating how policymakers – cheered on by Jeff Bezos – frequently rely on the crutch of economic growth rather than a sharp pencil in balancing the budget. The increased tax revenue never ends up covering costs – because costs skyrocket, too, in a growing economy.
The hard budget-balancing work is looking at the detail, doing the math, ferreting out REAL waste, and setting and following priorities. Interestingly, Robin Wall Kimmerer wrote about this phenomenon:
"An economy based on the impossibility of ever-expanding growth leads us into nightmare scenarios. I cringe when I hear economic reports celebrating the accelerating pace of economic growth, as if that were a good thing. It might be good for the Darrens, for the short term, but it is a dead end for others – it is an engine of extinction."
Also, a note about how "record Memorial Day travel" also means record carbon emissions.
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
Beyond collapse: Carrying Stories of Care – by Sallie Gillespie in Psyche's Nest on Substack: https://sallygillespie.substack.com/p/beyond-collapse-carrying-stories
The Serviceberry: An Economy of Abundance - by Robin Wall KimmererOriginal essay in Emergence Magazine: https://emergencemagazine.org/essay/the-serviceberry/
A Resolution for 2021: Be a Better Ancestor (review of The Good Ancestor): https://grist.org/climate/a-resolution-for-2021-be-a-better-ancestor/
The Good Ancestor: Following the Intergenerational Golden Rule – episode 54 of the GrowthBusters podcast featuring philosopher Roman Krznarik, author of The Good Ancestor: A Radical Prescription for Long-Term Thinking: https://www.growthbusters.org/good-ancestor/
What Doughnut Economics Can Learn From History – Roman Krznaric & Kate Raworth: https://youtu.be/FfUOs4ZJ1wM?si=dAIJjeYBUt6Amr3C
Flipping Economics on Its Head: Kate Raworth – episode 219 of Conversation Earth: http://www.conversationearth.org/flipping-economics-head-kate-raworth-219/
Thriving Economy: Not Rocket Science – Kate Raworth – episode 220 of Conversation Earth: http://www.conversationearth.org/thriving-economy-not-rocket-science-kate-raworth-220/
Kate Raworth – Exploring Doughnut Economics: https://www.kateraworth.com/
Doughnut Economics Action Lab: https://doughnuteconomics.org/
End of Ponzi Economy: Jerry Mander – episode 203 of Conversation Earth: http://www.conversationearth.org/end-ponzi-economy-jerry-mander-203/
Bright Future Project: https://brightfutureproject.us
We've been unable to find Bob Banner's essay, Why Relocalization? – A Return to the Local, so in its place:
Relocalization: A Strategic Response to Climate Change and Peak Oil – by Jason Bradford (2007, but still very relevant and informative): http://theoildrum.com/node/2598
Sustainability: Radical Solutions Inspiring Hope – edited by Bob Banner: https://www.amazon.com/Sustainability-Radical-Solutions-Inspiring-Hope/dp/0980230802
Give Us Feedback:
- Record a voice message for us to play on the podcast: 719-402-1400
- Send an email to podcast at growthbusters.org
The GrowthBusters theme song was written and produced by Jake Fader and sung by Carlos Jones. https://www.fadermusicandsound.com/ https://carlosjones.com/
On the GrowthBusters podcast, we come to terms with the limits to growth, explore the joy of sustainable living, and provide a recovery program from our society's growth addiction (economic/consumption and population). This podcast is part of the GrowthBusters project to raise awareness of overshoot and end our culture's obsession with, and pursuit of, growth.
Dave Gardner directed the documentary GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth, which Stanford Biologist Paul Ehrlich declared "could be the most important film ever made." Co-host, and self-described "energy nerd," Stephanie Gardner has degrees in Environmental Studies and Environmental Law & Policy.
Join the GrowthBusters online community https://growthbusters.groups.io/
GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth – free on YouTube https://youtu.be/_w0LiBsVFBo
Join the conversation on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/GrowthBustersPodcast/
Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/growthbusting/
Follow us on Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/growthbusters.bsky.social
Make a donation to support this non-profit project. https://www.growthbusters.org/donate/
Archive of GrowthBusters podcast episodes http://www.growthbusters.org/podcast/
Subscribe to GrowthBusters email updates https://lp.constantcontact.com/su/umptf6w/signup
Explore the issues at http://www.growthbusters.org
View the GrowthBusters channel on YouTube
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Prolific river protector Gary Wockner gives us the straight scoop on the state of the Colorado River (and others), and the growth obsession that keeps southwest states and cities from responding rationally to increasingly scarce water resources. TODAY, nearly half the world's population experiences severe water shortages at least part of the year. So far, fresh water issues in the American Southwest amount – mostly - to first world problems – like "I can't water my lawn whenever I want," "it's hard to keep the golf course lush and green with less water," or "How can I develop my next residential project if there's no water?" But the future could be grim, if we can't get the cities and states into a 12-step program to break the growth addiction habit.
Our guest, Gary Wockner, works globally as an advocate and consultant for protection of rivers. He founded and directs:
- Save the Colorado
- Save the Poudre
- Colorado River chapter of CASSE
He also cofounded Tell the Dam Truth, a nonprofit that supports river-protection groups by engaging with federal and state agencies to make sure that the greenhouse gas emissions caused by dams and reservoirs are counted, reported, and then considered during policy making, rulemaking, and legislation.
He most recently led opposition to the Northern Integrated Supply Project. He filed a lawsuit to stop it, and recently settled the suit. He shares about the settlement in this episode. Gary is also author of numerous books, including:
- River Warrior: Fighting to Protect the World's Rivers
- Comeback Wolves
- Pulse of the River
LINKS: News stories, opinion pieces, books and more related to Gary Wockner's work: https://garywockner.com/all-garys-writing-advocacy/ Disaster Capitalism on the Colorado River - Column by Gary Wockner: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/03/27/colorado-river-drought-destruction-interior-moonshot-disaster-capitalism-column/80468488/ Save the Colorado: https://savethecolorado.org/ Save the Poudre: https://www.savethepoudre.org/ Tell the Dam Truth: https://tellthedamtruth.com/
Colorado River Chapter of CASSE (Center for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy): https://steadystate.org/meet/chapters/ Colorado River Basin Climate and Hydrology: State of the Science: https://wwa.colorado.edu/resources/colorado-river-resources/CRBreport Colorado River States Still Have No Unified Long-Term Management Plan and 'Are Just About Out of Time,' Experts Warn – May 31, 2025 Denver Post story: https://www.denverpost.com/2025/05/31/colorado-river-negotiations-2026-deadline/ Water Supply Uncertainty Could Slow Growth in Colorado Springs – May 2024 news story KRDO13 Colorado Springs: https://youtu.be/rvGGqZHwHdM?si=bimFT2BSWlCq_c5C Officials Fear 'Complete Doomsday Scenario' for Drought-Stricken Colorado River - The Washington Post, December 1, 2022: https://www.yahoo.com/news/officials-fear-complete-doomsday-scenario-202316932.html?guccounter=1
Give Us Feedback:
- Record a voice message for us to play on the podcast: 719-402-1400
- Send an email to podcast at growthbusters.org
The GrowthBusters theme song was written and produced by Jake Fader and sung by Carlos Jones. https://www.fadermusicandsound.com/ https://carlosjones.com/
On the GrowthBusters podcast, we come to terms with the limits to growth, explore the joy of sustainable living, and provide a recovery program from our society's growth addiction (economic/consumption and population). This podcast is part of the GrowthBusters project to raise awareness of overshoot and end our culture's obsession with, and pursuit of, growth.
Dave Gardner directed the documentary GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth, which Stanford Biologist Paul Ehrlich declared "could be the most important film ever made." Co-host, and self-described "energy nerd," Stephanie Gardner has degrees in Environmental Studies and Environmental Law & Policy.
Join the GrowthBusters online community https://growthbusters.groups.io/
GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth – free on YouTube https://youtu.be/_w0LiBsVFBo
Join the conversation on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/GrowthBustersPodcast/ Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/growthbusting/
Follow us on Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/growthbusters.bsky.social
Make a donation to support this non-profit project. https://www.growthbusters.org/donate/
Archive of GrowthBusters podcast episodes http://www.growthbusters.org/podcast/
Subscribe to GrowthBusters email updates https://lp.constantcontact.com/su/umptf6w/signup
Explore the issues at http://www.growthbusters.org
View the GrowthBusters channel on YouTube
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Learn about a new think tank that's doing some of the most important thinking on the planet. Matt Orsagh is co-founder of the Arketa Institute for Post-Growth Finance and co-author of a just-published white paper, By Disaster Or Design: How Finance Can Evolve to Avoid the Worst of the Ecological Challenges We Face and Enable the Transition to a Better Economic Model.
That paper, and this episode, offer an introduction to degrowth, the rational response for a society in ecological overshoot. Degrowth is "an equitable downscaling of production and consumption that increases human well-being and enhances ecological conditions at the local and global level, in the short and long term." We also explore how the financial industry needs to evolve as we transition to a post-growth economy.
Matt is also author of the Substack column, Degrowth is the Answer. The Arketa Institute is working to "normalize the conversation around ecological economics and degrowth in the financial world." Steve Rocco and Anastasia Linn are co-founders with Matt Orsagh. The white paper was written by the three of them, and edited by Nicholas Harland.
Some upcoming events of note:
- April 29: Webinar to discuss the paper 'By Disaster or Design'. Register here: https://eu.bigin.online/org20104687142/forms/by-disaster-or-design-webinar
- May 7-9: Matt, Anastasia and Steve will attend and present at the in-person gathering of the Barcelona Action Circle of Financial Leaders. This is the culmination of a months-long engagement organized by the world-renowned team at Research & Degrowth: https://degrowth.org/
- May 13-15: Matt will attend the Finance Montreal Sustainable Finance Summit in Montreal, Canada: https://www.sommet-financedurable.com/en/home
- July 26-29: Matt will speak at the Degrowth Institute's inaugural DeSchool event in Chicago: https://www.degrowthinstitute.org/events/deschool-2025
- Fall 2025: Arketa Institute will survey global financial professionals on their understanding of ecological economics and post-growth ideas to inform a report to be published by the end of 2025.
LINKS:
By Disaster or Design: How Finance Can Evolve to Avoid the Worst of the Ecological Challenges We Face and Enable the Transition to a Better Economic Modelhttps://www.arketa-institute.org/resources/by-disaster-or-design
What We're Doing Isn't Working: It's Time for a New Approach – Episode 9 of Dave the Planet podcasthttps://davetheplanet.substack.com/p/what-were-doing-isnt-working
Behavior Change to Provide a Bright Future – Episode 15 of Dave the Planet podcasthttps://davetheplanet.substack.com/p/behavior-change-to-provide-a-bright
Planetary Boundaries – Stockholm Universityhttps://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/planetary-boundaries.html
The Serviceberry: Abundance and Reciprocity in the Natural World - by Robin Wall Kimmerer (author of Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge, and the Teachings of Plants)https://www.robinwallkimmerer.com/books
FURTHER READING:
Post-Growth: The Science of Wellbeing Within Planetary Boundarieshttps://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(24)00310-3/fulltext
This Isn't Capitalism — It's Growthism, and It's Bad for Usby Umair Haque, Harbard Business Review, October 28, 2013https://hbr.org/2013/10/this-isnt-capitalism-its-growthism-and-its-bad-for-us
Growthism: Its Ecological, Economic and Ethical Limits - by Herman Dalyhttps://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue87/Daly87.pdf https://www.pelicanweb.org/solisustv15n04page15.html
Essays Against Growthism, by Herman Daly, published by World Economics Association Books. Pdf or ebook https://www.worldeconomicsassociation.org/files/Essays-Against-Growthism-Herman-Daly-PDF.pdf https://www.worldeconomicsassociation.org/library/essays-against-growthism/
The Entropy Law and the Economic Processhttps://content.csbs.utah.edu/~lozada/Adv_Resource_Econ/En_Law_Econ_Proc_Cropped_Optimized_Clearscan.pdf
Quantity of Metals Required to Manufacture One Generation of Renewable Technology Units to Phase Out Fossil Fuelshttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/367682085_Quantity_of_Metals_Required_to_Manufacture_One_Generation_of_Renewable_Technology_Units_to_Phase_Out_Fossil_Fuels
Give Us Feedback:
- Record a voice message for us to play on the podcast: 719-402-1400
- Send an email to podcast at growthbusters.org
The GrowthBusters theme song was written and produced by Jake Fader and sung by Carlos Jones. https://www.fadermusicandsound.com/ https://carlosjones.com/
On the GrowthBusters podcast, we come to terms with the limits to growth, explore the joy of sustainable living, and provide a recovery program from our society's growth addiction (economic/consumption and population). This podcast is part of the GrowthBusters project to raise awareness of overshoot and end our culture's obsession with, and pursuit of, growth.
Dave Gardner directed the documentary GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth, which Stanford Biologist Paul Ehrlich declared "could be the most important film ever made." Co-host, and self-described "energy nerd," Stephanie Gardner has degrees in Environmental Studies and Environmental Law & Policy.
Join the GrowthBusters online community https://growthbusters.groups.io/
GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth – free on YouTube https://youtu.be/_w0LiBsVFBo
Join the conversation on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/GrowthBustersPodcast/ Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/growthbusting/
Follow us on Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/growthbusters.bsky.social
Make a donation to support this non-profit project. https://www.growthbusters.org/donate/
Archive of GrowthBusters podcast episodes http://www.growthbusters.org/podcast/
Subscribe to GrowthBusters email updates https://lp.constantcontact.com/su/umptf6w/signup
Explore the issues at http://www.growthbusters.org
View the GrowthBusters channel on YouTube
Follow the podcast so you don't miss an episode: