Can we find a middle ground between those who see the EU's wolf downlisting as a catastrophe and those who celebrate it as good news? The debate around wolf conservation in the EU has become frustratingly polarised, with both sides 'crying wolf' about the consequences of changing protection status. It's time to step back and look at the evidence.When dealing with controversial subjects like this, it is important to be factual and follow the evidence. So I was delighted to have the opportunity to talk about it with Dr Hanna Pettersson, one of the most prominent early career voices in interdisciplinary conservation. Hanna is the lead author of a paper titled 'Now What? The Conundrum of Successful Recovery of Wolves and Other Species for European Conservation', co-authored with Professor Erica von Essen, who was also a guest on the acclaimed episode 163.During our conversation, we discuss the success conundrum in conservation, the difference between ecological and social carrying capacity, and why we need to think about future pathways rather than looking back. We also talk about the role of legal hunting in reducing poaching and the importance of working with local communities who have lived alongside wolves for generations. Of course, there are larger systemic issues underneath and we don't shy away from discussing those as well, including inequality as a driver of biodiversity loss.Further reading:Now What? The Conundrum of Successful Recovery of Wolves and Other Species for European ConservationTime to stop crying wolf – on both sides of the debate - Stockholm Resilience CentreSubscribe to Tommy's Outdoors: Conservation and Science NewsletterSupport the Podcast and Buy Me a Coffee.Recommended Books: tommysoutdoors.com/booksMerch: tommysoutdoors.com/shopFollow Tommy's Outdoors on Bluesky, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube and Facebook