"Because we're kind of lowering the stakes. We're saying it's okay to admit to yourself that you care about factory farming and you care about animals because we're not going to try and trick you into going vegan or whatever. And so it allows them to engage with the issue, maybe for the first time in a really serious way.

I think what we want to do is, just try and make it easier for more people to really engage with their values, and be an invitation to people to say, I know you care about this. I know when you see factory farming on you know, those annoying ads on your Instagram that show you what's going on, that you feel sad and you feel horrible about it. Let us help you do something about that in a way that fits your life and fits your lifestyle." – Thom Norman

Most of us agree that factory farming is one of the greatest sources of suffering on Earth. We hate it. We don't want to support it. And yet — it persists.

Today's guest, Thom Norman, is trying to change that. He's the co-founder of FarmKind, an organization that's asking a radical question: What if we stopped making compassion so hard?

Instead of telling people what not to eat, FarmKind is inviting everyone to help dismantle factory farming — not by guilt or purity tests, but through collective action. With their Compassion Calculator, just $23 a month has massive impact for animals. It's simple, inclusive, and it's working.

In this conversation, Thom and I talk about how factory farming got so bad, why lifestyle change alone isn't enough, and how shifting from shame to solidarity could open the biggest door yet — for animals, for people, and for real change.

Tom and his cofounder Aidan Alexander were on the show a year ago shortly after farm kind launched. A lot has happened in a year.