Banished

<p> </p><p>In January this year, <a target="_blank" href="https://pen.org/">PEN America</a> released its most recent annual report, <a target="_blank" href="https://pen.org/report/americas-censored-campuses-25-web-of-control/"><em>Expanding the Web of Control: America's Censored Campuses 2025</em></a><em>.</em> It  provides a meticulous analysis of the threats to free speech and academic freedom on U.S. campuses. Amna spoke with Jonathan Friedman, Director of U.S. Free Expression Programs at PEN America and Amy Reid, Program Director for PEN America's Freedom to Learn Program, about why 2025 was such a catastrophic year for higher ed. </p><p><strong>Show notes</strong></p><p>* Pen America’s report: <a target="_blank" href="https://pen.org/report/americas-censored-campuses-25-web-of-control/"><em>Expanding the Web of Control: America’s Censored Campuses 2025</em></a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://banished.substack.com/p/trouble-ahead">Trouble Ahead</a><a target="_blank" href="http://PEN America&#39;s Jeremy Young on What Trump 2.0 Portends for Higher Education">: PEN America's Jeremy Young on What Trump 2.0 Portends for Higher Education</a></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://banished.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_2">banished.substack.com/subscribe</a>

<p>We were delighted to have the chance to speak with political scientist <a target="_blank" href="https://www.yaschamounk.com/about">Yascha Mounk</a> earlier this month at the University of Wisconsin—Eau Claire. We had a wide-ranging conversation about the threats facing diverse democracies today—and, why, in spite of the many challenges, Yascha remains optimistic. </p><p><strong>Show Notes</strong></p><p>* Yascha is the founder of the publication <a target="_blank" href="https://www.persuasion.community/"><em>Persuasion</em></a><em> </em>and has his own <a target="_blank" href="https://substack.com/@yaschamounk">substack</a>. We recommend his podcast, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.persuasion.community/podcast"><em>The Good Fight</em></a> , as well. We made a joint <a target="_blank" href="https://www.persuasion.community/p/khalid-snyder">appearance</a> on the pod back in 2023 to discuss fighting illiberalism from the right and the left. </p><p>* For a list of Yascha’s books , click <a target="_blank" href="https://www.yaschamounk.com/books">here</a>.</p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://banished.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_2">banished.substack.com/subscribe</a>

<p>We have been dying to discuss an article called  <a target="_blank" href="https://www.chronicle.com/article/why-arent-professors-braver">“Why Aren’t Professors Braver?” </a>since it was first published in <em>The Chronicle of Higher Education</em> back in September. It’s by the psychologist <a target="_blank" href="https://paulbloom.net/">Paul Bloom</a> and it starts with an ode to the professoriate:</p><p>We tend to be pretty smart. We are sometimes socially inept, but in a sweet way. We are genuinely excited about ideas…We are often generous... mentoring students in ways that don’t lead to any tangible rewards.  And we are a peaceable lot. If you’re sitting at a bar, minding your own business, and some drunk takes a swing at you, the drunk is unlikely to be a professor.</p><p>In spite of our many praiseworthy traits, Bloom says that professors aren’t particularly courageous. When controversial or sensitive topics arise, he claims that we tend to be “too censorious and too self-censoring.”  “Why,” Bloom asks, “are even tenured professors, people with the most secure jobs on Earth, so unwilling to speak their minds?”</p><p>We have posed this question many times since we both became faculty members--and we could think of no better person to hash it out with than our friend, UPenn professor <a target="_blank" href="https://www.gse.upenn.edu/faculty/jonathan-zimmerman">Jonathan Zimmerman</a>.</p><p>Jon is a historian of education who has had a long and illustrious career, first at West Chester University, then at New York University and now at the University of Pennsylvania. He is the author of many books, including <em>Whose America: Culture Wars in the Public Schools</em>, <em>Too Hot to Handle: A Global History of Sex Education</em>, and <em>The Amateur Hour: A History of College Teaching in America.</em> We were thrilled to have him join us on Banished.</p><p><strong>Show Notes</strong></p><p>* Here is the article that inspired this episode: Paul Bloom, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.chronicle.com/article/why-arent-professors-braver">“Why Aren’t Professors Braver?”</a>, <em>Chronicle Review</em>, September 24, 2025</p><p>* The term “excellent sheep” comes from William Deresiewicz’s 2014 <a target="_blank" href="https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Excellent-Sheep/William-Deresiewicz/9781476702728">book</a>, <em>Excellent Sheep: The Miseducation of the American Elite and the Way to a Meaningful Life</em></p><p>* See Jon Zimmerman’s official UPenn bio <a target="_blank" href="https://www.gse.upenn.edu/faculty/jonathan-zimmerman">here</a></p><p>* The *circling the wagons* article Jon references is available <a target="_blank" href="https://thehill.com/opinion/5239676-universities-free-speech-trump/">here</a></p><p></p><p></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://banished.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_2">banished.substack.com/subscribe</a>

<p>We were delighted to have the chance to speak with <a target="_blank" href="https://adam-szetela.com/">Adam Szetela</a> about his new <a target="_blank" href="https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262049856/that-book-is-dangerous/">book</a>, <em>That Book Is Dangerous! How Moral Panic, Social Media, and the Culture Wars Are Remaking Publishing</em>. </p><p>Adam shares what he learned from authors, agents, and editors about the effects of cancel culture in the publishing industry. His behind-the-scenes account is fascinating and sobering in equal measure.</p><p><strong>Show Notes</strong></p><p>* For more info on Adam Szetela, check out his <a target="_blank" href="https://adam-szetela.com/">website</a> </p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262049856/that-book-is-dangerous/">Here</a> is the official MIT Press link to Adam’s book </p><p>* The Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie audio clips come from her 2022 Reith Lecture on Free Speech (listen <a target="_blank" href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001fmtz">here</a>; read the transcript <a target="_blank" href="https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2022/Reith_2022_Lecture1.pdf">here</a>)</p><p>* Matt Yglesias coined the term “The Great Awokening” in <a target="_blank" href="https://www.vox.com/2019/3/22/18259865/great-awokening-white-liberals-race-polling-trump-2020">this</a> 2019 <em>Vox</em> essay</p><p>* “a rapid change in discourse and norms around social justice issues”: That’s a <a target="_blank" href="https://heterodoxacademy.org/blog/the-great-awokening-of-scholarship-may-be-ending/">quote</a> from Stony Brook sociologist <a target="_blank" href="https://musaalgharbi.com/">Musa al-Gharbi</a>, one of the nation’s foremost chroniclers of “The Great Awokening”</p><p>* see Musa’s 2024 <a target="_blank" href="https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691232607/we-have-never-been-woke?srsltid=AfmBOor1Ialkw3XY9y-090s-wTNYtrpVdwd548MTqc68QXk-2GXRnHul">book</a> <em>We Have Never Been Woke:</em> <em>The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite </em></p><p>* here are two Banished episodes featuring Musa: <a target="_blank" href="https://banished.substack.com/p/you-cant-be-an-egalitarian-social">You Can’t Be an Egalitarian Social Climber</a> & <a target="_blank" href="https://banished.substack.com/p/who-speaks-the-language-of-social">Who Speaks the Language of Social Justice?</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/">The Harper’s Letter</a></p><p>* Michael Hobbes, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cancel-culture-harpers-jk-rowling-scam_n_5f0887b4c5b67a80bc06c95e">“Don’t Fall for the ‘Cancel Culture Scam,’”</a> <em>HuffPo</em>, July 10, 2020</p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/10/24/zadie-smith-in-defense-of-fiction/">This</a> 2019 Zadie Smith essay from the <em>New York Review of Books</em> is the definitive rejoinder to the cultural critics who insist that we “should write only about people who are fundamentally ‘like us’: racially, sexually, genetically, nationally, politically, personally”</p><p>* On the controversy surrounding Amélie Wen Zhao’s <em>Blood Heir</em>, see Alexandra Alter, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/books/amelie-wen-zhao-blood-heir.html?unlocked_article_code=1.p08.zsUo.efxW3W-rOrrn&#38;smid=url-share">“She Pulled Her Debut Book When Critics Found It Racist. Now She Plans to Publish,”</a> <em>New York Times</em>, April 29, 2019</p><p>* On the cancelation of Kosoko Jackson’s book, <em>A Place for Wolves</em>, see Jennifer Senior, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/opinion/teen-fiction-and-the-perils-of-cancel-culture.html?unlocked_article_code=1.p08.ky6S.5R05e5scaqkf&#38;smid=url-share">“Teen Fiction and the Perils of Cancel Culture,”</a> <em>New York Times</em>, March 8, 2019</p><p>* On the cancelation of a romance novel based on “criticism from readers over dialogue that some found racist or that praised Elon Musk,” see Alexandra Alter, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/05/books/sophie-lark-sparrow-vine-bloom-books-cancelled.html?unlocked_article_code=1.p08.L8Cl.sj6FxVvfsh6g&#38;smid=url-share">“A Publisher Pulled a Romance Novel After Criticism From Early Readers,”</a> <em>New York Times</em>, March 5, 2025</p><p>* On the demographics of the people who work in the publishing industry, with an emphasis on racial diversity, see this 2022 report from Pen America, <a target="_blank" href="https://pen.org/report/reading-between-the-lines/">“Reading Between the Lines”</a></p><p>* For more on literature and the culture wars, see Deborah Appleman’s incisive 2022 <a target="_blank" href="https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324019183/about-the-book/product-details">book</a>, <em>Literature and the New Culture Wars: Triggers, Cancel Culture, and the Teacher’s Dilemma </em></p><p>* On the perils of teaching literature from a narrow social justice lens, see <a target="_blank" href="https://www.jeffreyaaronsnyder.com/_files/ugd/5c295d_d5fce094cc5b4c9985714f136ad9103c.pdf">“Poverty of the Imagination,”</a> an essay we wrote a few years back in <em>Arc Digital</em></p><p>* On what we keep getting wrong about the cancel culture debate, see <a target="_blank" href="https://banished.substack.com/p/what-we-keep-getting-wrong-about">this</a> September 26, 2025 Banished post </p><p></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://banished.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_2">banished.substack.com/subscribe</a>

<p>We were thrilled to have the opportunity to speak with <a target="_blank" href="https://www.thefire.org/about-us/our-team/sarah-mclaughlin">Sarah McLaughlin</a> about her new <a target="_blank" href="https://www.press.jhu.edu/books/title/53835/authoritarians-academy?srsltid=AfmBOoq-d65n8hFpdVsp5-ky8POybFk5r8AXbfvQeho-V6ilW0VLb4Ea">book</a>, <em>Authoritarians in the Academy: How the Internationalization of Higher Education and Borderless Censorship Threaten Free Speech</em>. </p><p>As a Senior Scholar at <a target="_blank" href="https://www.thefire.org/">The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression</a>, Sarah is one of the leading experts on how global censorship intersects with free expression issues in the United States. </p><p>In this episode of Banished, Sarah discusses her book’s key findings and offers her reflections on the nerve-wracking, topsy-turvy free speech climate in the United States today. </p><p><strong>Show Notes</strong></p><p>* Follow Sarah on twitter <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/sarahemclaugh">here</a>, bluesky <a target="_blank" href="https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:d52g57qhdyydkmwtuueco57q">here</a></p><p>* <a target="_blank" href="https://www.press.jhu.edu/books/title/53835/authoritarians-academy?srsltid=AfmBOoo1G6dy-CfbkFqP6uCQzBwCWhM9NEDmj4-8F7_-q_PgBNSQZOZ8">Here</a> is the official Johns Hopkins Press link to Sarah’s book</p><p>* On international student enrollment, see <a target="_blank" href="https://www.insidehighered.com/news/global/international-students-us/2025/06/11/data-international-students-numbers">“International Students by the Numbers,”</a> <em>Inside Higher Ed</em> </p><p>* On Confucius Institutes, see Ethan Epstein, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/16/how-china-infiltrated-us-classrooms-216327/">“How China Infiltrated U.S. Classrooms,”</a> Politico Magazine, January 17, 2018</p><p>* On the Olympics poster controversy at George Washington University, see:</p><p>* Amna’s <a target="_blank" href="https://banished.substack.com/p/the-cartoon-is-mightier-than-the">interview</a> with Badiucao, the poster’s artist</p><p>* Jeff’s <a target="_blank" href="https://www.jeffreyaaronsnyder.com/_files/ugd/5c295d_5dd20a43b0dc459cafd21fbee22c0ef1.pdf">article</a> on the dust-up in the <em>Chronicle of Higher Education</em></p><p>* this extraordinary <a target="_blank" href="https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/_nfEFkrD1QLDfE0EaXMNWg">open letter</a> from the George Washington University Chinese Students and Scholars Association. On the subject of “sensitivity exploitation,” GW’s CSSA drew quite shamelessly from social justice discourse: </p><p>* On the challenges facing China scholars, see:</p><p>* Perry Link, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.chinafile.com/library/nyrb-china-archive/china-anaconda-chandelier">“China: The Anaconda in the Chandelier</a>,” <em>New York Review of Books</em>, April 11, 2002</p><p>* Sheena Chestnut Greitens and Rory Truex, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/china-quarterly/article/repressive-experiences-among-china-scholars-new-evidence-from-survey-data/C1CB08324457ED90199C274CDC153127">“Repressive Experiences among China Scholars: New Evidence from Survey Data,”</a> <em>The China Quarterly</em>, May 2019</p><p>* On U.S. satellite campuses abroad, see Patrick Jack, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.insidehighered.com/news/global/us-colleges-world/2025/05/16/us-universities-eye-branch-campuses-way-survive-trump#">“U.S. Universities Eye Branch Campuses as Way to ‘Survive Trump,’” </a><em>Inside Higher Ed</em>, May 16, 2025</p><p>* Sarah describes Northwestern’s cancellation of an event featuring an openly gay musician on its Qatar campus in 2020 <a target="_blank" href="https://www.thefire.org/news/northwestern-university-cancels-event-featuring-openly-gay-musician-qatar-campus">here</a></p><p>* On calls to have students, faculty, and staff fired because of disparaging comments about Charlie Kirk after he was murdered, see:</p><p>* Ellie Davis, Gavin Escott, and Claire Murphy, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.chronicle.com/article/employees-and-students-at-these-colleges-have-been-punished-for-comments-on-charlie-kirks-death">“Employees and Students at These Colleges Have Been Punished for Comments on Charlie Kirk’s Death,”</a> <em>Chronicle of Higher Education</em>, September 17, 2025</p><p>* Stephanie Saul, <a target="_blank" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/22/us/firing-educators-kirk-free-speech.html?unlocked_article_code=1.n08.3gqt.YyIhvnu0zzm4&#38;smid=url-share">“The Firing of Educators Over Kirk Comments Follows a Familiar Playbook,”</a> <em>New York Times</em>, September 22, 2025</p><p></p><p></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://banished.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_2">banished.substack.com/subscribe</a>