<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Archie Abrams&lt;/strong&gt; is the VP of Product and Head of Growth at Shopify, where he leads a 600+ person growth org across product, design, engineering, data, ops, and growth marketing. Shopify powers over 10% of e-commerce in the United States, with $235 billion in GMV in 2023 (roughly the size of Finland’s economy). He previously led Consumer product and growth at Lyft and was at Udemy for 8 years as SVP of Product having joined the company when it was 10 people. In our conversation, we discuss:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Why Shopify optimizes &lt;em&gt;for&lt;/em&gt; churn&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Why the core product team doesn’t use metrics-based goals&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Why they keep multi-year experiment holdouts&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• How they structure their growth team&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• The benefits of not having a CMO&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Lessons learned about integrating sales into a product-led growth model&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• The power of discounting as a growth lever&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Much more&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Brought to you by:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://explo.co/lenny"&gt;Explo&lt;/a&gt;—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://dvtl.link/3Za7aa0"&gt;Dovetail&lt;/a&gt;—The customer insights hub for product teams&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Find the transcript at: &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/shopifys-growth-archie-abrams"&gt;https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/shopifys-growth-archie-abrams&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Where to find Archie Abrams:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• X: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/archieabrams"&gt;https://x.com/archieabrams&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• LinkedIn: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/archie-abrams-b6aa8b6/"&gt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/archie-abrams-b6aa8b6/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Where to find Lenny:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Newsletter: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com"&gt;https://www.lennysnewsletter.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• X: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan"&gt;https://twitter.com/lennysan&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• LinkedIn: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/"&gt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;In this episode, we cover:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(00:00) Archie’s background &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(02:30) Shopify’s impressive growth&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(06:17) Shopify’s unique approach to churn and retention&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(08:43) Monetization model and success metrics&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(11:08) Long-term experimentation and metrics&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(23:00) Examples of big wins that Archie’s team has shipped&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(26:42) Monetary friction&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(27:14) Metrics&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(29:47) Shopify’s growth team structure&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(33:03) Goal setting and forecasting&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(37:10) Examples of long-term results within Shopify&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(41:36) Shipping neutral experiments&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(42:05) Building a hundred-year company&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(48:04) Why Shopify doesn’t use KPIs&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(51:30) Shopify’s “Get s**t done” framework&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(54:30) Cross-team collaboration &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(58:48) The importance of an opinionated founder &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(01:01:12) Growth and sales integration&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(01:06:42) Shopify’s marketing structure&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(01:08:49) Insights on discounting from Udemy&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(01:11:09) Lightning round&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Referenced:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Shopify: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.shopify.com/"&gt;https://www.shopify.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Tobias Lütke on LinkedIn: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/tobiaslutke/"&gt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/tobiaslutke&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Gross Merchandise Value: Calculation and Best Practices: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.shopify.com/retail/gross-merchandise-value"&gt;https://www.shopify.com/retail/gross-merchandise-value&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach"&gt;https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Glen Coates on LinkedIn: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/glcoates/"&gt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/glcoates&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Harley Finkelstein on LinkedIn: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/harleyf/"&gt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/harleyf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Udemy: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.udemy.com/"&gt;https://www.udemy.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;Scientific Advertising&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Advertising-Original-Claude-Hopkins/dp/1640954252"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Advertising-Original-Claude-Hopkins/dp/1640954252&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;Four-Minute Mile&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Four-Minute-Mile-Roger-Bannister/dp/1493038753/"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/Four-Minute-Mile-Roger-Bannister/dp/1493038753/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;The Sopranos &lt;/em&gt;on HBO: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.hbo.com/the-sopranos"&gt;https://www.hbo.com/the-sopranos&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Suno: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://suno.com/"&gt;https://suno.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Production and marketing by &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://penname.co/"&gt;https://penname.co/&lt;/a&gt;. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email &lt;a target="_blank" href="mailto:podcast@lennyrachitsky.com"&gt;podcast@lennyrachitsky.com&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at &lt;a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&amp;#38;utm_campaign=CTA_4"&gt;www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe&lt;/a&gt;</description>

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Lenny Rachitsky

Breaking the rules of growth: Why Shopify bans KPIs, optimizes for churn, prioritizes intuition, and builds toward a 100-year vision | Archie Abrams (VP Product, Head of Growth at Shopify)

NOV 7, 202477 MIN
Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Breaking the rules of growth: Why Shopify bans KPIs, optimizes for churn, prioritizes intuition, and builds toward a 100-year vision | Archie Abrams (VP Product, Head of Growth at Shopify)

NOV 7, 202477 MIN

Description

<p><strong>Archie Abrams</strong> is the VP of Product and Head of Growth at Shopify, where he leads a 600+ person growth org across product, design, engineering, data, ops, and growth marketing. Shopify powers over 10% of e-commerce in the United States, with $235 billion in GMV in 2023 (roughly the size of Finland’s economy). He previously led Consumer product and growth at Lyft and was at Udemy for 8 years as SVP of Product having joined the company when it was 10 people. In our conversation, we discuss:</p><p>• Why Shopify optimizes <em>for</em> churn</p><p>• Why the core product team doesn’t use metrics-based goals</p><p>• Why they keep multi-year experiment holdouts</p><p>• How they structure their growth team</p><p>• The benefits of not having a CMO</p><p>• Lessons learned about integrating sales into a product-led growth model</p><p>• The power of discounting as a growth lever</p><p>• Much more</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Brought to you by:</strong></p><p>• <a target="_blank" href="https://explo.co/lenny">Explo</a>—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product</p><p>• <a target="_blank" href="https://dvtl.link/3Za7aa0">Dovetail</a>—The customer insights hub for product teams</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Find the transcript at: </strong><a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/shopifys-growth-archie-abrams">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/shopifys-growth-archie-abrams</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Archie Abrams:</strong></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/archieabrams">https://x.com/archieabrams</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/archie-abrams-b6aa8b6/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/archie-abrams-b6aa8b6/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Lenny:</strong></p><p>• Newsletter: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com</a></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan">https://twitter.com/lennysan</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>In this episode, we cover:</strong></p><p>(00:00) Archie’s background </p><p>(02:30) Shopify’s impressive growth</p><p>(06:17) Shopify’s unique approach to churn and retention</p><p>(08:43) Monetization model and success metrics</p><p>(11:08) Long-term experimentation and metrics</p><p>(23:00) Examples of big wins that Archie’s team has shipped</p><p>(26:42) Monetary friction</p><p>(27:14) Metrics</p><p>(29:47) Shopify’s growth team structure</p><p>(33:03) Goal setting and forecasting</p><p>(37:10) Examples of long-term results within Shopify</p><p>(41:36) Shipping neutral experiments</p><p>(42:05) Building a hundred-year company</p><p>(48:04) Why Shopify doesn’t use KPIs</p><p>(51:30) Shopify’s “Get s**t done” framework</p><p>(54:30) Cross-team collaboration </p><p>(58:48) The importance of an opinionated founder </p><p>(01:01:12) Growth and sales integration</p><p>(01:06:42) Shopify’s marketing structure</p><p>(01:08:49) Insights on discounting from Udemy</p><p>(01:11:09) Lightning round</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Referenced:</strong></p><p>• Shopify: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.shopify.com/">https://www.shopify.com/</a></p><p>• Tobias Lütke on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/tobiaslutke/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/tobiaslutke</a></p><p>• Gross Merchandise Value: Calculation and Best Practices: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.shopify.com/retail/gross-merchandise-value">https://www.shopify.com/retail/gross-merchandise-value</a></p><p>• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach</a></p><p>• Glen Coates on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/glcoates/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/glcoates</a></p><p>• Harley Finkelstein on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/harleyf/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/harleyf</a></p><p>• Udemy: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.udemy.com/">https://www.udemy.com/</a></p><p>• <em>Scientific Advertising</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Advertising-Original-Claude-Hopkins/dp/1640954252">https://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Advertising-Original-Claude-Hopkins/dp/1640954252</a></p><p>• <em>Four-Minute Mile</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Four-Minute-Mile-Roger-Bannister/dp/1493038753/">https://www.amazon.com/Four-Minute-Mile-Roger-Bannister/dp/1493038753/</a></p><p>• <em>The Sopranos </em>on HBO: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.hbo.com/the-sopranos">https://www.hbo.com/the-sopranos</a></p><p>• Suno: <a target="_blank" href="https://suno.com/">https://suno.com/</a></p><p>—</p><p>Production and marketing by <a target="_blank" href="https://penname.co/">https://penname.co/</a>. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email <a target="_blank" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>.</p><p>—</p><p><em>Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.</em></p> <br/><br/>Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at <a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_4">www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe</a>