<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Sherwin Wu&lt;/strong&gt; leads engineering for OpenAI’s API platform, where roughly 95% of engineers use Codex, often working with fleets of 10 to 20 parallel AI agents.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;We discuss:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;1. What OpenAI did to cut code review times from 10-15 minutes to 2-3 minutes&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;2. How AI is changing the role of managers&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;3. Why the productivity gap between AI power users and everyone else is widening&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;4. Why “models will eat your scaffolding for breakfast”&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;5. Why the next 12 to 24 months are a rare window where engineers can leap ahead before the role fully transforms&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Brought to you by:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a target="_blank" href="https://getdx.com/lenny"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;DX&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a target="_blank" href="http://sentry.io/lenny"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Sentry&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;—Code breaks, fix it faster&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.datadoghq.com/lenny"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Datadog&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;—Now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Episode transcript:&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineers-are-becoming-sorcerers"&gt;https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineers-are-becoming-sorcerers&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&amp;#38;st=ahz0fj11&amp;#38;dl=0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&amp;st=ahz0fj11&amp;dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Where to find Sherwin Wu:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• X: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/sherwinwu"&gt;https://x.com/sherwinwu&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• LinkedIn: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/sherwinwu1"&gt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/sherwinwu1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Where to find Lenny:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Newsletter: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com"&gt;https://www.lennysnewsletter.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• X: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan"&gt;https://twitter.com/lennysan&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• LinkedIn: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/"&gt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;In this episode, we cover:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(00:00) Introduction to Sherwin Wu&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(03:10) AI’s role in coding at OpenAI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(06:53) The future of software engineering with AI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(12:26) The stress of managing agents&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(15:07) Codex and code review automation&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(19:29) The changing role of engineering managers&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(24:14) The one-person billion-dollar startup&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(31:40) Management lessons&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(37:28) Challenges and best practices in AI deployment&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(43:56) Hot takes on AI and customer feedback&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(48:57) Building for future AI capabilities&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(50:16) Where models are headed in the next 18 months&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(53:35) Business process automation&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(57:22) OpenAI’s ecosystem and platform strategy&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(01:00:50) OpenAI’s mission and global impact&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(01:05:21) Building on OpenAI’s API and tools&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(01:08:16) Lightning round and final thoughts&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Referenced:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Codex: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://openai.com/codex"&gt;https://openai.com/codex&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai"&gt;https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• OpenClaw: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://openclaw.ai"&gt;https://openclaw.ai&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• The creator of Clawd: “I ship code I don’t read”: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-creator-of-clawd-i-ship-code"&gt;https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-creator-of-clawd-i-ship-code&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;The Sorcerer’s Apprentice&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorcerer%27s_Apprentice_(Dukas)"&gt;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorcerer%27s_Apprentice_(Dukas)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Quora: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.quora.com"&gt;https://www.quora.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Marc Andreessen: The real AI boom hasn’t even started yet: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/marc-andreessen-the-real-ai-boom"&gt;https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/marc-andreessen-the-real-ai-boom&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Sarah Friar on LinkedIn: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-friar"&gt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-friar&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Sam Altman on X: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/sama"&gt;https://x.com/sama&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Nicolas Bustamante’s “LLMs Eat Scaffolding for Breakfast” post on X: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/nicbstme/status/2015795605524901957"&gt;https://x.com/nicbstme/status/2015795605524901957&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• The Bitter Lesson: &lt;a target="_blank" href="http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html"&gt;http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Overton window: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window"&gt;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Developers can now submit apps to ChatGPT: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://openai.com/index/developers-can-now-submit-apps-to-chatgpt"&gt;https://openai.com/index/developers-can-now-submit-apps-to-chatgpt&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Responses: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://platform.openai.com/docs/api-reference/responses"&gt;https://platform.openai.com/docs/api-reference/responses&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Agents SDK: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://platform.openai.com/docs/guides/agents-sdk"&gt;https://platform.openai.com/docs/guides/agents-sdk&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• AgentKit: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-agentkit"&gt;https://openai.com/index/introducing-agentkit&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Ubiquiti: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://ui.com"&gt;https://ui.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;Jujutsu Kaisen &lt;/em&gt;on Crunchyroll: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.crunchyroll.com/series/GRDV0019R/jujutsu-kaisen?srsltid=AfmBOoqvfzKQ6SZOgzyJwNQ43eceaJTQA2nUxTQfjA1Ko4OxlpUoBNRB"&gt;https://www.crunchyroll.com/series/GRDV0019R/jujutsu-kaisen?srsltid=AfmBOoqvfzKQ6SZOgzyJwNQ43eceaJTQA2nUxTQfjA1Ko4OxlpUoBNRB&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• eero: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://eero.com"&gt;https://eero.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Opendoor: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.opendoor.com"&gt;https://www.opendoor.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Recommended books:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Structure-Interpretation-Computer-Programs-Engineering/dp/0262510871"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/Structure-Interpretation-Computer-Programs-Engineering/dp/0262510871&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;There Is No Antimemetics Division: A Novel&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/There-No-Antimemetics-Division-Novel/dp/0593983750"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/There-No-Antimemetics-Division-Novel/dp/0593983750&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;Breakneck: China’s Quest to Engineer the Future&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;Apple in China: The Capture of the World’s Greatest Company&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Apple-China-Capture-Greatest-Company/dp/1668053373"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/Apple-China-Capture-Greatest-Company/dp/1668053373&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Production and marketing by &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://penname.co/"&gt;https://penname.co/&lt;/a&gt;. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email &lt;a target="_blank" href="mailto:podcast@lennyrachitsky.com"&gt;podcast@lennyrachitsky.com&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;To hear more, visit &lt;a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&amp;#38;utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language"&gt;www.lennysnewsletter.com&lt;/a&gt;</description>

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

Lenny Rachitsky

“Engineers are becoming sorcerers” | The future of software development with OpenAI’s Sherwin Wu

FEB 12, 202679 MIN
Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

“Engineers are becoming sorcerers” | The future of software development with OpenAI’s Sherwin Wu

FEB 12, 202679 MIN

Description

<p><strong>Sherwin Wu</strong> leads engineering for OpenAI’s API platform, where roughly 95% of engineers use Codex, often working with fleets of 10 to 20 parallel AI agents.</p><p></p><p><strong>We discuss:</strong></p><p>1. What OpenAI did to cut code review times from 10-15 minutes to 2-3 minutes</p><p>2. How AI is changing the role of managers</p><p>3. Why the productivity gap between AI power users and everyone else is widening</p><p>4. Why “models will eat your scaffolding for breakfast”</p><p>5. Why the next 12 to 24 months are a rare window where engineers can leap ahead before the role fully transforms</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Brought to you by:</strong></p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://getdx.com/lenny"><strong>DX</strong></a>—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers</p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://sentry.io/lenny"><strong>Sentry</strong></a>—Code breaks, fix it faster</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://www.datadoghq.com/lenny"><strong>Datadog</strong></a>—Now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Episode transcript:</strong> <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineers-are-becoming-sorcerers">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineers-are-becoming-sorcerers</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: </strong><a target="_blank" href="https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&#38;st=ahz0fj11&#38;dl=0">https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Sherwin Wu:</strong></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/sherwinwu">https://x.com/sherwinwu</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/sherwinwu1">https://www.linkedin.com/in/sherwinwu1</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Lenny:</strong></p><p>• Newsletter: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com</a></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan">https://twitter.com/lennysan</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>In this episode, we cover:</strong></p><p>(00:00) Introduction to Sherwin Wu</p><p>(03:10) AI’s role in coding at OpenAI</p><p>(06:53) The future of software engineering with AI</p><p>(12:26) The stress of managing agents</p><p>(15:07) Codex and code review automation</p><p>(19:29) The changing role of engineering managers</p><p>(24:14) The one-person billion-dollar startup</p><p>(31:40) Management lessons</p><p>(37:28) Challenges and best practices in AI deployment</p><p>(43:56) Hot takes on AI and customer feedback</p><p>(48:57) Building for future AI capabilities</p><p>(50:16) Where models are headed in the next 18 months</p><p>(53:35) Business process automation</p><p>(57:22) OpenAI’s ecosystem and platform strategy</p><p>(01:00:50) OpenAI’s mission and global impact</p><p>(01:05:21) Building on OpenAI’s API and tools</p><p>(01:08:16) Lightning round and final thoughts</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Referenced:</strong></p><p>• Codex: <a target="_blank" href="https://openai.com/codex">https://openai.com/codex</a></p><p>• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai</a></p><p>• OpenClaw: <a target="_blank" href="https://openclaw.ai">https://openclaw.ai</a></p><p>• The creator of Clawd: “I ship code I don’t read”: <a target="_blank" href="https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-creator-of-clawd-i-ship-code">https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-creator-of-clawd-i-ship-code</a></p><p>• <em>The Sorcerer’s Apprentice</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorcerer%27s_Apprentice_(Dukas)">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorcerer%27s_Apprentice_(Dukas)</a></p><p>• Quora: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.quora.com">https://www.quora.com</a></p><p>• Marc Andreessen: The real AI boom hasn’t even started yet: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/marc-andreessen-the-real-ai-boom">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/marc-andreessen-the-real-ai-boom</a></p><p>• Sarah Friar on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-friar">https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-friar</a></p><p>• Sam Altman on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/sama">https://x.com/sama</a></p><p>• Nicolas Bustamante’s “LLMs Eat Scaffolding for Breakfast” post on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/nicbstme/status/2015795605524901957">https://x.com/nicbstme/status/2015795605524901957</a></p><p>• The Bitter Lesson: <a target="_blank" href="http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html">http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html</a></p><p>• Overton window: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window</a></p><p>• Developers can now submit apps to ChatGPT: <a target="_blank" href="https://openai.com/index/developers-can-now-submit-apps-to-chatgpt">https://openai.com/index/developers-can-now-submit-apps-to-chatgpt</a></p><p>• Responses: <a target="_blank" href="https://platform.openai.com/docs/api-reference/responses">https://platform.openai.com/docs/api-reference/responses</a></p><p>• Agents SDK: <a target="_blank" href="https://platform.openai.com/docs/guides/agents-sdk">https://platform.openai.com/docs/guides/agents-sdk</a></p><p>• AgentKit: <a target="_blank" href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-agentkit">https://openai.com/index/introducing-agentkit</a></p><p>• Ubiquiti: <a target="_blank" href="https://ui.com">https://ui.com</a></p><p>• <em>Jujutsu Kaisen </em>on Crunchyroll: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.crunchyroll.com/series/GRDV0019R/jujutsu-kaisen?srsltid=AfmBOoqvfzKQ6SZOgzyJwNQ43eceaJTQA2nUxTQfjA1Ko4OxlpUoBNRB">https://www.crunchyroll.com/series/GRDV0019R/jujutsu-kaisen?srsltid=AfmBOoqvfzKQ6SZOgzyJwNQ43eceaJTQA2nUxTQfjA1Ko4OxlpUoBNRB</a></p><p>• eero: <a target="_blank" href="https://eero.com">https://eero.com</a></p><p>• Opendoor: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.opendoor.com">https://www.opendoor.com</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Recommended books:</strong></p><p>• <em>Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Structure-Interpretation-Computer-Programs-Engineering/dp/0262510871">https://www.amazon.com/Structure-Interpretation-Computer-Programs-Engineering/dp/0262510871</a></p><p>• <em>The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959">https://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959</a></p><p>• <em>There Is No Antimemetics Division: A Novel</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/There-No-Antimemetics-Division-Novel/dp/0593983750">https://www.amazon.com/There-No-Antimemetics-Division-Novel/dp/0593983750</a></p><p>• <em>Breakneck: China’s Quest to Engineer the Future</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034">https://www.amazon.com/Breakneck-Chinas-Quest-Engineer-Future/dp/1324106034</a></p><p>• <em>Apple in China: The Capture of the World’s Greatest Company</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Apple-China-Capture-Greatest-Company/dp/1668053373">https://www.amazon.com/Apple-China-Capture-Greatest-Company/dp/1668053373</a></p><p>—</p><p>Production and marketing by <a target="_blank" href="https://penname.co/">https://penname.co/</a>. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email <a target="_blank" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>.</p><p>—</p><p><em>Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.</em></p> <br/><br/>To hear more, visit <a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language">www.lennysnewsletter.com</a>