<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Edwin Chen&lt;/strong&gt; is the founder and CEO of Surge AI, the company that teaches AI what’s good vs. what’s bad, powering frontier labs with elite data, environments, and evaluations. Surge surpassed $1 billion in revenue with under 100 employees last year, completely bootstrapped—the fastest company in history to reach this milestone. Before founding Surge, Edwin was a research scientist at Google, Facebook, and Twitter and studied mathematics, computer science, and linguistics at MIT.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;We discuss:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;1. How Surge reached over $1 billion in revenue with fewer than 100 people by obsessing over quality&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;2. The story behind how Claude Code got so good at coding and writing&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;3. The problems with AI benchmarks and why they’re pushing AI in the wrong direction&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;4. How RL environments are the next frontier in AI training&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;5. Why Edwin believes we’re still a decade away from AGI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;6. Why taste and human judgment shape which AI models become industry leaders&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;7. His contrarian approach to company building that rejects Silicon Valley’s “pivot and blitzscale” playbook&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;8. How AI models will become increasingly differentiated based on the values of the companies building them&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Brought to you by:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a target="_blank" href="https://vanta.com/lenny"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Vanta&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;—Automate compliance. Simplify security.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a target="_blank" href="https://workos.com/lenny"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;WorkOS&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a target="_blank" href="https://coda.io/lenny"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Coda&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;—The all-in-one collaborative workspace&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Transcript: &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/surge-ai-edwin-chen"&gt;https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/surge-ai-edwin-chen&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers):&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/180055059/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation"&gt;https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/180055059/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Where to find Edwin Chen:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• X: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/echen"&gt;https://x.com/echen&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• LinkedIn: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/edwinzchen"&gt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/edwinzchen&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Surge’s blog: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://surgehq.ai/blog"&gt;https://surgehq.ai/blog&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Where to find Lenny:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Newsletter: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com"&gt;https://www.lennysnewsletter.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• X: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan"&gt;https://twitter.com/lennysan&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• LinkedIn: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/"&gt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;In this episode, we cover:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(00:00) Introduction to Edwin Chen&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(04:48) AI’s role in business efficiency&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(07:08) Building a contrarian company&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(08:55) An explanation of what Surge AI does&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(09:36) The importance of high-quality data&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(13:31) How Claude Code has stayed ahead&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(17:37) Edwin’s skepticism toward benchmarks&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(21:54) AGI timelines and industry trends&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(28:33) The Silicon Valley machine&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(33:07) Reinforcement learning and future AI training&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(39:37) Understanding model trajectories&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(41:11) How models have advanced and will continue to advance&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(42:55) Adapting to industry needs&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(44:39) Surge’s research approach&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(48:07) Predictions for the next few years in AI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(50:43) What’s underhyped and overhyped in AI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(52:55) The story of founding Surge AI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(01:02:18) Lightning round and final thoughts&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Referenced:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Surge: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://surgehq.ai"&gt;https://surgehq.ai&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Surge’s product page: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://surgehq.ai/products"&gt;https://surgehq.ai/products&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Claude Code: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.claude.com/product/claude-code"&gt;https://www.claude.com/product/claude-code&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Gemini 3: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://aistudio.google.com/models/gemini-3"&gt;https://aistudio.google.com/models/gemini-3&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Sora: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://openai.com/sora"&gt;https://openai.com/sora&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Terrence Rohan on LinkedIn: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/terrencerohan"&gt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/terrencerohan&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Richard Sutton—Father of RL thinks LLMs are a dead end: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/richard-sutton"&gt;https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/richard-sutton&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• The Bitter Lesson: &lt;a target="_blank" href="http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html"&gt;http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Reinforcement learning: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement_learning"&gt;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement_learning&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Grok: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://grok.com"&gt;https://grok.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Warren Buffett on X: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/WarrenBuffett"&gt;https://x.com/WarrenBuffett&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai"&gt;https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next"&gt;https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Brian Armstrong on LinkedIn: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/barmstrong"&gt;https://www.linkedin.com/in/barmstrong&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;Interstellar &lt;/em&gt;on Prime Video: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Interstellar-Matthew-McConaughey/dp/B00TU9UFTS"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/Interstellar-Matthew-McConaughey/dp/B00TU9UFTS&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;Arrival &lt;/em&gt;on Prime Video: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Arrival-Amy-Adams/dp/B01M2C4NP8"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/Arrival-Amy-Adams/dp/B01M2C4NP8&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;Travelers &lt;/em&gt;on Netflix: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.netflix.com/title/80105699"&gt;https://www.netflix.com/title/80105699&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Waymo: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://waymo.com"&gt;https://waymo.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• Soda versus pop: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://flowingdata.com/2012/07/09/soda-versus-pop-on-twitter"&gt;https://flowingdata.com/2012/07/09/soda-versus-pop-on-twitter&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Recommended books:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;Stories of Your Life and Others&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Stories-Your-Life-Others-Chiang/dp/1101972122"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/Stories-Your-Life-Others-Chiang/dp/1101972122&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;The Myth of Sisyphus&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Sisyphus-Vintage-International/dp/0525564454"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Sisyphus-Vintage-International/dp/0525564454&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;Le Ton Beau de Marot: In Praise of the Music of Language&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465086454"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465086454&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;• &lt;em&gt;Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid&lt;/em&gt;: &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567"&gt;https://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Production and marketing by &lt;a target="_blank" href="https://penname.co/"&gt;https://penname.co/&lt;/a&gt;. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email &lt;a target="_blank" href="mailto:podcast@lennyrachitsky.com"&gt;podcast@lennyrachitsky.com&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;—&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;To hear more, visit &lt;a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&amp;#38;utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language"&gt;www.lennysnewsletter.com&lt;/a&gt;</description>

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

Lenny Rachitsky

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

DEC 7, 202570 MIN
Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

DEC 7, 202570 MIN

Description

<p><strong>Edwin Chen</strong> is the founder and CEO of Surge AI, the company that teaches AI what’s good vs. what’s bad, powering frontier labs with elite data, environments, and evaluations. Surge surpassed $1 billion in revenue with under 100 employees last year, completely bootstrapped—the fastest company in history to reach this milestone. Before founding Surge, Edwin was a research scientist at Google, Facebook, and Twitter and studied mathematics, computer science, and linguistics at MIT.</p><p></p><p><strong>We discuss:</strong></p><p>1. How Surge reached over $1 billion in revenue with fewer than 100 people by obsessing over quality</p><p>2. The story behind how Claude Code got so good at coding and writing</p><p>3. The problems with AI benchmarks and why they’re pushing AI in the wrong direction</p><p>4. How RL environments are the next frontier in AI training</p><p>5. Why Edwin believes we’re still a decade away from AGI</p><p>6. Why taste and human judgment shape which AI models become industry leaders</p><p>7. His contrarian approach to company building that rejects Silicon Valley’s “pivot and blitzscale” playbook</p><p>8. How AI models will become increasingly differentiated based on the values of the companies building them</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Brought to you by:</strong></p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://vanta.com/lenny"><strong>Vanta</strong></a>—Automate compliance. Simplify security.</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://workos.com/lenny"><strong>WorkOS</strong></a>—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://coda.io/lenny"><strong>Coda</strong></a>—The all-in-one collaborative workspace</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Transcript: </strong><a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/surge-ai-edwin-chen">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/surge-ai-edwin-chen</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers):</strong> <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/180055059/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/180055059/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Edwin Chen:</strong></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/echen">https://x.com/echen</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/edwinzchen">https://www.linkedin.com/in/edwinzchen</a></p><p>• Surge’s blog: <a target="_blank" href="https://surgehq.ai/blog">https://surgehq.ai/blog</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Lenny:</strong></p><p>• Newsletter: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com</a></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan">https://twitter.com/lennysan</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>In this episode, we cover:</strong></p><p>(00:00) Introduction to Edwin Chen</p><p>(04:48) AI’s role in business efficiency</p><p>(07:08) Building a contrarian company</p><p>(08:55) An explanation of what Surge AI does</p><p>(09:36) The importance of high-quality data</p><p>(13:31) How Claude Code has stayed ahead</p><p>(17:37) Edwin’s skepticism toward benchmarks</p><p>(21:54) AGI timelines and industry trends</p><p>(28:33) The Silicon Valley machine</p><p>(33:07) Reinforcement learning and future AI training</p><p>(39:37) Understanding model trajectories</p><p>(41:11) How models have advanced and will continue to advance</p><p>(42:55) Adapting to industry needs</p><p>(44:39) Surge’s research approach</p><p>(48:07) Predictions for the next few years in AI</p><p>(50:43) What’s underhyped and overhyped in AI</p><p>(52:55) The story of founding Surge AI</p><p>(01:02:18) Lightning round and final thoughts</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Referenced:</strong></p><p>• Surge: <a target="_blank" href="https://surgehq.ai">https://surgehq.ai</a></p><p>• Surge’s product page: <a target="_blank" href="https://surgehq.ai/products">https://surgehq.ai/products</a></p><p>• Claude Code: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.claude.com/product/claude-code">https://www.claude.com/product/claude-code</a></p><p>• Gemini 3: <a target="_blank" href="https://aistudio.google.com/models/gemini-3">https://aistudio.google.com/models/gemini-3</a></p><p>• Sora: <a target="_blank" href="https://openai.com/sora">https://openai.com/sora</a></p><p>• Terrence Rohan on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/terrencerohan">https://www.linkedin.com/in/terrencerohan</a></p><p>• Richard Sutton—Father of RL thinks LLMs are a dead end: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/richard-sutton">https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/richard-sutton</a></p><p>• The Bitter Lesson: <a target="_blank" href="http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html">http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html</a></p><p>• Reinforcement learning: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement_learning">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement_learning</a></p><p>• Grok: <a target="_blank" href="https://grok.com">https://grok.com</a></p><p>• Warren Buffett on X: <a target="_blank" href="https://x.com/WarrenBuffett">https://x.com/WarrenBuffett</a></p><p>• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai</a></p><p>• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next</a></p><p>• Brian Armstrong on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/barmstrong">https://www.linkedin.com/in/barmstrong</a></p><p>• <em>Interstellar </em>on Prime Video: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Interstellar-Matthew-McConaughey/dp/B00TU9UFTS">https://www.amazon.com/Interstellar-Matthew-McConaughey/dp/B00TU9UFTS</a></p><p>• <em>Arrival </em>on Prime Video: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Arrival-Amy-Adams/dp/B01M2C4NP8">https://www.amazon.com/Arrival-Amy-Adams/dp/B01M2C4NP8</a></p><p>• <em>Travelers </em>on Netflix: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.netflix.com/title/80105699">https://www.netflix.com/title/80105699</a></p><p>• Waymo: <a target="_blank" href="https://waymo.com">https://waymo.com</a></p><p>• Soda versus pop: <a target="_blank" href="https://flowingdata.com/2012/07/09/soda-versus-pop-on-twitter">https://flowingdata.com/2012/07/09/soda-versus-pop-on-twitter</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Recommended books:</strong></p><p>• <em>Stories of Your Life and Others</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Stories-Your-Life-Others-Chiang/dp/1101972122">https://www.amazon.com/Stories-Your-Life-Others-Chiang/dp/1101972122</a></p><p>• <em>The Myth of Sisyphus</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Sisyphus-Vintage-International/dp/0525564454">https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Sisyphus-Vintage-International/dp/0525564454</a></p><p>• <em>Le Ton Beau de Marot: In Praise of the Music of Language</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465086454">https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465086454</a></p><p>• <em>Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567">https://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567</a></p><p>—</p><p>Production and marketing by <a target="_blank" href="https://penname.co/">https://penname.co/</a>. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email <a target="_blank" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>.</p><p>—</p><p><em>Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.</em></p> <br/><br/>To hear more, visit <a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=show-notes-no-free-preview-language">www.lennysnewsletter.com</a>