The GitLab way: Kindness, transparency, and short toes | David DeSanto (CPO)

APR 14, 202481 MIN
Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

The GitLab way: Kindness, transparency, and short toes | David DeSanto (CPO)

APR 14, 202481 MIN

Description

<p><strong>David DeSanto</strong> is the chief product officer of GitLab, which is the largest remote-only company in the world. They share many of their team meetings on YouTube, and they’ve grown from being an open-source code management product competing with GitHub to a multi-product platform that covers security, compliance, continuous integration, project management, and deployment tools, many of which are infused with AI magic. In our conversation, we discuss:</p><p>• How GitLab operationalizes transparency</p><p>• The philosophy behind recording and sharing team meetings on YouTube</p><p>• Their extensive public employee handbook</p><p>• GitLab’s core value of having “short toes”</p><p>• Challenges and advice for doing remote work well</p><p>• Strategies for ensuring effective communication in a remote work environment</p><p>• GitLab’s breadth-over-depth strategy</p><p>• The company’s unique approach to AI</p><p>• The value of using humor in high-stakes conversations</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Brought to you by:</strong></p><p>• <a target="_blank" href="https://www.withorb.com/lenny">Orb</a>—The flexible billing engine for modern pricing</p><p>• <a target="_blank" href="https://www.geteppo.com/">Eppo</a>—Run reliable, impactful experiments</p><p>• <a target="_blank" href="https://www.useparagon.com/lenny">Paragon</a>—Ship every SaaS integration your customers want</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Find the transcript at: </strong><a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-gitlab-way">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-gitlab-way</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find David DeSanto:</strong></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/david_desanto">https://twitter.com/david_desanto</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/ddesanto/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/ddesanto/</a></p><p>• Threads: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.threads.net/@david.the.beard">https://www.threads.net/@david.the.beard</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>Where to find Lenny:</strong></p><p>• Newsletter: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com</a></p><p>• X: <a target="_blank" href="https://twitter.com/lennysan">https://twitter.com/lennysan</a></p><p>• LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>In this episode, we cover:</strong></p><p>(00:00) David’s background</p><p>(04:20) Maintaining an epic beard</p><p>(05:29) Why GitLab publicly shares team meetings</p><p>(09:49) The GitLab Handbook</p><p>(11:30) GitLab’s issue tracker</p><p>(14:29) How to successfully build a culture of transparency</p><p>(18:11) Benefits of operating with transparency</p><p>(19:55) The value of building in public</p><p>(21:53) How GitLab implements their core value of kindness</p><p>(25:16) What it means to have “short toes”</p><p>(27:41) Other core values</p><p>(32:16) Common reasons for not fitting in at GitLab</p><p>(34:42) Advice for remote teams</p><p>(42:04) Advice for getting into product</p><p>(43:52) Advice for PMs who are struggling in a remote world</p><p>(48:25) Specific tools that help with remote work</p><p>(53:13) Time zones and remote work</p><p>(57:18) Breadth-over-depth strategy</p><p>(01:04:14) AI at GitLab</p><p>(01:13:11) GitLab’s products and solutions</p><p>(01:14:54) Lightning round</p><p>—</p><p><strong>Referenced:</strong></p><p>• GitLab: <a target="_blank" href="https://about.gitlab.com/">https://about.gitlab.com/</a></p><p>• UX Showcase—David DeSanto introduction to UX team and AMA: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEdsmnVKNj4">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEdsmnVKNj4</a></p><p>• The GitLab Handbook: <a target="_blank" href="https://handbook.gitlab.com/">https://handbook.gitlab.com/</a></p><p>• Sid Sijbrandij on LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/sijbrandij/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/sijbrandij/</a></p><p>• Y Combinator: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.ycombinator.com/">https://www.ycombinator.com/</a></p><p>• GitLab issues: <a target="_blank" href="https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/issues/">https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/issues/</a></p><p>• Salesforce: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.salesforce.com/">https://www.salesforce.com/</a></p><p>• GitLab values: <a target="_blank" href="https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/values">https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/values</a></p><p>• GitLab organizational structure: <a target="_blank" href="https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/company/structure">https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/company/structure</a></p><p>• GitLab direction: <a target="_blank" href="https://about.gitlab.com/direction/">https://about.gitlab.com/direction/</a></p><p>• Dogfooding: A simple practice to help you build better products: <a target="_blank" href="https://medium.com/agileinsider/dogfooding-a-simple-practice-to-help-you-build-better-products-b5954af4d5f7">https://medium.com/agileinsider/dogfooding-a-simple-practice-to-help-you-build-better-products-b5954af4d5f7</a></p><p>• The ultimate guide to adding a PLG motion | Hila Qu (Reforge, GitLab): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-adding-a-plg">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-adding-a-plg</a></p><p>• Zigging vs. zagging: How HubSpot built a $30B company | Dharmesh Shah (co-founder/CTO): <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-30-years-of-building">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-30-years-of-building</a></p><p>• HubSpot: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.hubspot.com/">https://www.hubspot.com/</a></p><p>• <em>Crossing the Chasm: Marketing and Selling Disruptive Products to Mainstream Customers</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-3rd-Disruptive-Mainstream/dp/0062292986">https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-3rd-Disruptive-Mainstream/dp/0062292986</a></p><p>• Geoffrey Moore on finding your beachhead, crossing the chasm, and dominating a market: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennyspodcast.com/geoffrey-moore-on-finding-your-beachhead-crossing-the-chasm-and-dominating-a-market/">https://www.lennyspodcast.com/geoffrey-moore-on-finding-your-beachhead-crossing-the-chasm-and-dominating-a-market/</a></p><p>• Open-core model: <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-core_model">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-core_model</a></p><p>• GitLab Duo: <a target="_blank" href="https://about.gitlab.com/gitlab-duo/">https://about.gitlab.com/gitlab-duo/</a></p><p>• GitLab Docs: <a target="_blank" href="https://docs.gitlab.com/">https://docs.gitlab.com/</a></p><p>• Anthropic: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.anthropic.com/">https://www.anthropic.com/</a></p><p>• GitLab Acquires UnReview to Expand Its DevOps Platform with Machine Learning Capabilities: <a target="_blank" href="https://about.gitlab.com/press/releases/2021-06-02-gitlab-acquires-unreview-machine-learning-capabilities/">https://about.gitlab.com/press/releases/2021-06-02-gitlab-acquires-unreview-machine-learning-capabilities/</a></p><p>• <em>Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less</em>: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/Essentialism-Disciplined-Pursuit-Greg-McKeown/dp/0804137382">https://www.amazon.com/Essentialism-Disciplined-Pursuit-Greg-McKeown/dp/0804137382</a></p><p>• The Mission Critical Core/Context Model for Product Managers: <a target="_blank" href="https://secretpmhandbook.com/the-mission-critical-corecontext-model-for-product-managers/">https://secretpmhandbook.com/the-mission-critical-corecontext-model-for-product-managers/</a></p><p>• <em>The Devil’s Hour</em> on AppleTV+: <a target="_blank" href="https://tv.apple.com/us/show/the-devils-hour/umc.cmc.3zw4tyzd4lvor5mwhujms63x3">https://tv.apple.com/us/show/the-devils-hour/umc.cmc.3zw4tyzd4lvor5mwhujms63x3</a></p><p>• <em>Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery</em> on Netflix: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.netflix.com/title/81458416">https://www.netflix.com/title/81458416</a></p><p>• Taylor Swift’s <em>The Eras Tour </em>on Prime Video: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.amazon.com/TAYLOR-SWIFT-ERAS-EXTENDED-VERSION/dp/B0CP99SN2B">https://www.amazon.com/TAYLOR-SWIFT-ERAS-EXTENDED-VERSION/dp/B0CP99SN2B</a></p><p>• The STAR method: <a target="_blank" href="https://capd.mit.edu/resources/the-star-method-for-behavioral-interviews/">https://capd.mit.edu/resources/the-star-method-for-behavioral-interviews/</a></p><p>• Artifact News: <a target="_blank" href="https://artifact.news/">https://artifact.news/</a></p><p>• Superhuman: <a target="_blank" href="https://superhuman.com/">https://superhuman.com/</a></p><p>• Arc browser: <a target="_blank" href="https://arc.net/">https://arc.net/</a></p><p>• An inside look at how The Browser Company builds product: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/competing-with-giants-an-inside-look">https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/competing-with-giants-an-inside-look</a></p><p>—</p><p>Production and marketing by <a target="_blank" href="https://penname.co/">https://penname.co/</a>. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email <a target="_blank" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>.</p><p>—</p><p><em>Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.</em></p> <br/><br/>Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at <a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_4">www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe</a>