Melody or Witchcraft: Poets on Emily Dickinson & Today's Issues

Dorianne’s episode concludes Season 4. We’ll be back in the new year with yet another group of fantastic poets, including torrin a. greathouse and Donika Kelly!! This holiday season, if you’ve been enjoying the podcast and you’re looking for how to donate to causes that promote things you believe in, please consider Melody or Witchcraft. At as little as $7/ month, your paid subscription or gift subscription helps me cover editing and hosting platforms, consultations, equipment like mics and headphones, guests’ books, and generally keep up with this time-intensive labor of love. Thank you. The Melody or Witchcraft podcast interviews begin with a love for poetry, its craft, and a major literary ancestor: Emily Dickinson. I’m your host, Kathryn Petruccelli, a poet, workshop leader, Substacker, & former guide for the Emily Dickinson Museum in Amherst, Massachusetts. Listen in to hear about the concentric circles of the past and the present. Names or poetic references are fleshed out or linked to in the show notes if not in the moment. Thanks for being a listener! Rate us on Spotify HERE, or Apple Podcasts HERE.kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com for complete show notes, photos, & links. I loved getting to speak with this matriarch of poetry. Many years ago, I was part of a workshop Dorianne Laux gave in Ellen Bass’ living room and I can still remember the poem I brought to it, how my young poet brain had to work to take in Dorianne’s feedback (I mean, to think something had to be extracted from my precious, unassailable poem!?). When we spoke back in the spring, Dorianne was recovering from a serious illness and was still quite weak. I was acutely aware of not wanting to tax her, and perhaps for that reason, at the end of our conversation when the topic of Carolyn Forché came up, I regrettably didn’t think to ask her more about how she saw Forché’s influence and to present a bit about her for folks who might not be familiar. Therefore, I decided to record one of Forché’s iconic poems from her collection The Country Between Us after the outro for this episode. So, hang in there past our theme music and you’ll hear me read “The Colonel.” It gives a solid, brutal introduction to some of the material the book handles after Carolyn Forché’s time in El Salvador in the 1970s. Those of you familiar, will know that Forché calls herself a poet of witness, then and now. For good reason. In Episode 25, Dorianne & I chat monorhymes, the mind of the poet, the cosmos, going beyond what satisfies us on the page, & Carolyn Forché. (Recorded March 30, 2026) Dorianne Laux is the author of seven books of poetry, including Only As the Day is Long: New and Selected Poems, which was named a finalist for the 2020 Pulitzer Prize for Poetry. Her other collections include The Book of Men, Facts About the Moon, Awake; What We Carry, a finalist for the National Book Critic’s Circle Award; and Smoke. Her latest collection of poetry is Life On Earth and was released in January of 2024. Finger Exercises for Poets, a book of concise craft essays and exercises for poets was released in July 2024. The Dickinson poem Dorianne chose: I heard a Fly buzz - when I died -The Stillness in the RoomWas like the Stillness in the Air -Between the Heaves of Storm - The Eyes around - had wrung them dry -And Breaths were gathering firmFor that last Onset - when the KingBe witnessed - in the Room - I willed my Keepsakes - Signed awayWhat portion of me beAssignable - and then it wasThere interposed a Fly - With Blue - uncertain - stumbling Buzz -Between the light - and me -And then the Windows failed - and thenI could not see to see - Fascicle 26, Sheet 1, (Fr591, J465) c. summer 1863 Emily SaidDorianne Laux Emily said she heard a fly buzzwhen she died, heard it whizzover her head, troubling her frizzedhair. What will I hear? Showbiztunes on the radio, the megahertzfuzz when the station picks up Yaz,not the Hall-of-Famer or the Pezof contraceptives, but the jazzyflash-in-the-pan ’80’s techno-pop star, peach fuzzon her rouged cheeks singing Pal-easeDon’t Go through a kazoo. Will my old love spritzthe air with the perfume of old roses,buy me the white satin Mercedes-Benzof pillows, string a rainbow blitzof crystals in the window—quartz, topaz—or will I die wheezing, listening to a quizshow: What year is this? Who was the 44th Prezof the United States? Where is the SuezCanal? Are you too hot? Cold? Freezing? Other Dickinson poems mentioned in the interview: There is a pain—so utter—It swallows substance up—Then covers the Abyss with Trance—So Memory can stepAround—across—upon it—As one within a Swoon—Goes safely—where an open eye—Would drop Him—Bone by Bone. Concepts, people, poems mentioned: I mention immortality as her “flood subject.” In Letter 319 June 9, 1866 to Thomas Wentworth Higginson, Dickinson writes,You mention Immortality.That is the Flood subject. Helen Vendler (Alfred, Lord) Tennyson “Tintern Abbey” is William Wordsworth’s poem whose full title is “Lines Composed a Few Miles above Tintern Abbey, On Revisiting the Banks of the Wye during a Tour. July 13, 1798” Monorhyme Kim Addonizio “Men” by Dorianne (which is another example of a monorhyme) Percy Bysshe Shelley’s “Ozymandias” Carolyn Forché’s 1981 book, The Country Between Us chronicling her time in El Salvador in the 1970s. (link gives a good summary) Thank you for listening and reading. Was it worth $7/month? One of the benefits of paid subscriptions are free stand-alone workshops like this one below! And you KNOW Dorianne’s poems will be included in a workshop called THE COSMOS. Thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

The Melody or Witchcraft podcast interviews begin with a love for poetry, its craft, and a major literary ancestor: Emily Dickinson. I’m your host, Kathryn Petruccelli, a poet, workshop leader, Substacker, & former guide for the Emily Dickinson Museum in Amherst, Massachusetts. Listen in to hear about the concentric circles of past and present. Names or poetic references are fleshed out or linked to in the show notes if not in the moment. Thanks for being a listener! Rate us on Spotify HERE, or Apple Podcasts HERE.kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com for full show notes, links & photos. Angela Narciso Torres was one of those super prepared guests! She’d kindly listened to several episodes before I got to sit down with her and I got to benefit from both her deep thinking and her gorgeous typewriter collection! In Episode 24, Angela & I get into moving beyond grief, defining home, & she breaks down for us the idea of “bricolage” – making things from the scraps of what we have handy. (Recorded May 26, 2026) Angela Narciso Torres is the author of What Happens Is Neither, Blood Orange, and the chapbook, To the Bone. A graduate of the Harvard Graduate School of Education and Warren Wilson’s MFA program, she has been awarded a Pushcart Prize, a BreadLoaf Fellowship, and the Yeats Poetry Prize. Born in Brooklyn and raised in Manila, she lives in San Diego and serves as reviews editor for RHINO. The Dickinson poem Angela chose: To make a prairie it takes a clover and one bee,One clover, and a bee.And revery.The revery alone will do,If bees are few. transcribed by Mabel Loomis Todd, (Fr 1779, J1755) Late BirdAngela Narciso Torres Count me among the noon risers who stumble,dazed and bad-haired, from the nest midday,pecking the crazed dirt for half-torn moth, pear’s white core, severed worm. I’ve never been one to trill at chink of dawn, to hop, skip, chirrup before full sun. I’m better at picking over crumbs, stitching a quiltfrom what’s left, remaindered, given upfor gone. Better at betting the careless will miss the best. Count me amongthe nightbirds who sip starlight, a guitar’sfading strains. Find me where moondust swirls in streetlamp glow and stray dogs sleep.What clings to the bone is most sweet. Other Dickinson poems mentioned: After great pain, a formal feeling comes—, the Diane Seuss episode of Melody or Witchcraft that covers that poem. Fact check, people, & concepts mentioned: Claude Lévi-Strauss – Bricolage From April 25, 1862 to Thomas Wentworth Higginson. Letter 261.“[Father] buys me many books but begs me not to read them for he fears they joggle the mind.” Czesław Miłosz Seamus Heaney Terrance Hayes’ American Sonnets for my Past and Future Assassin Diane Seuss’ Frank: Sonnets, Anne of Green Gables Read a scan of a first edition (1911) copy of The Secret Garden from the New York Public Library! Addie Mills series RHINO journal Poem-a-day of Angela’s poem “Late Bird” with an “about” paragraph where Angela explains more of where it came from and the connected Shakespearean sonnet 73. The tanka form Thank you for being a Melody or Witchcraft listener! Tune in Monday, November 9th for our final episode of Season 4 (Dorianne Laux). We’d love it if you were moved to sign up as a paid subscriber. There will be bonus material for paid Subscribers in 2027 and other benes you can take advantage of even sooner, like the workshop below - free for supporters! It’s just about time to renew the fees for the recording and editing platforms…your generosity is most welcome! These are hard times and sometimes perspective can make all the difference. The Cosmos" aims to introduce you to poets you love writing on the stars, the planets, the moon (is that still allowed??) and in the process writing about human lives, failures, desire, and loss. Check out the website or email montereyboundATgmailDOTcom. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

The Melody or Witchcraft podcast interviews begin with a love for poetry, its craft, and a major literary ancestor: Emily Dickinson. I’m your host, Kathryn Petruccelli, a poet, workshop leader, Substacker, & former guide for the Emily Dickinson Museum in Amherst, Massachusetts. Listen in to hear about the concentric circles of the past and the present. Names or poetic references are fleshed out or linked to in the show notes if not in the moment. Thanks for being a listener! Rate us on Spotify HERE, or Apple Podcasts HERE.kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com for full show notes, links, & photos. I have the fabulous Dana Levin, Season 2 guest, to thank for putting Jane Huffman on my radar. I immediately watched Jane’s reading for the Phosphorescence series with the Emily Dickinson Museum and was struck by the starkness and intention of her work as well as what felt like a clearly Dickinsonian tenor. Our conversation proved super interesting and fun and I’m glad I could get an hour with this very busy PhD candidate! In Episode 23, Jane & I ruminate on the uses of fear and anxiety, her relationship with the narrative, a positive caveat in AI’s influence, & more. (Recorded June 5, 2026) Jane Huffman (she/her) is the author of Public Abstract (American Poetry Review, 2023), winner of the 2023 APR/Honickman First Book Prize. She is a PhD candidate in English and literary arts at the University of Denver, where she is managing editor of Denver Quarterly, and she has an MFA from the University of Iowa. Her poems have appeared in The Nation, The Atlantic, Poetry Magazine, The New Yorker, New England Review, and elsewhere. She was a 2019 recipient of the Ruth Lilly and Dorothy Sargent Rosenberg Fellowship from the Poetry Foundation. The Dickinson poem Jane chose: I lived on Dread —To Those who knowThe stimulus there isIn Danger — Other impetusIs numb — and vitalless — As ‘twere a Spur — upon the Soul —A Fear will urge it whereTo go without the spectre’s aidWere challenging Despair. Fascile 23, Sheet 6, (Fr498, J770) c. late 1862 RuminationJane Huffman If I stopped for a moment even, even for a moment, I would not start again — like breathing — no, I fear, I should say, fear — I fear I would not start again — and it is fearthat keeps me up, suspended like an apple in my mind when someone tells me to picture it: an apple on your fingertip. Rumination, as a cow does, ultimately sustained by it. (As a cow does, ultimately made of grass, sustained by it, and thus an allegory for, a standing in, the thing she eats. The grass grows up and on in her. She stands in it. The part is a container for the whole. Strokes of grass become the cud, the soul.) The James Allen Hall episode of Melody of Witchcraft in which we cover “One need not be a chanber – to be Haunted –” “Called Back” was indeed the entire contents of the final letter Dickinson wrote which was addressed to her cousins – Letter 1046, January 1886. It reads, Little Cousins, / Called Back / Emily. Called Back was also the title of a novella by Hugh Conway (a pseudonym for English author Frederick John Fargus) which Dickinson had written about in another letter to her cousin the year prior. Link to the Radiolab episode on aphantasia – when someone cannot create a picture of something in their mind. Petrarchan sonnet While I hope to keep the main episodes free to listeners, I’m cooking up some new projects behind the scenes for paid subscribers to add to the other benefits already in place. Details coming in the weeks ahead. In addition, there are costs involved in making the podcast, like equipment, consultation, and the possibility of purchasing the books of my guests, nevermind the huge investment of time. Offering the basic support per month costs only slightly more than one latte or cappuccino. Please consider contributing if you enjoy what you’ve heard. Thanks, Kitty. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

The Melody or Witchcraft podcast interviews begin with a love for poetry, its craft, and a major literary ancestor: Emily Dickinson. I’m your host, Kathryn Petruccelli, a poet, workshop leader, Substacker, & former guide for the Emily Dickinson Museum in Amherst, Massachusetts. Listen in to hear about the concentric circles of the past and the present. Names or poetic references are fleshed out or linked to in the show notes if not in the moment. Thanks for being a listener! Rate us on Spotify HERE, or Apple Podcasts HERE. kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com for complete notes, photos, and links. I’m lucky to call James Crews a friend. When I was still living in the States, we weren’t more than a couple hours’ drive from each other. He is as kind as he appears in virtual spaces—and he’s fun! I’ve written about James and his work in a previous Substack post called “Tough Love’s Time is Done.” You can find it here. Below is a photo of us a couple years ago at a meet up at MASS MoCA museum in North Adams, Massachusetts. In Episode 22, James & I talk about life’s package deal of pain & beauty, his unique poetry writing process, what poets can do to lift each other up, & more! (Recorded August 20, 2026) James Crews is the author and editor of fourteen books, including Breathing Room, Turning Toward Grief, How to Love the World, and Love Is for All of Us, winner of a Nautilus Gold Medal Award. He has been featured on NPR’s Morning Edition, in People Magazine, The Boston Globe, and The New York Times Magazine. James lives with his husband on forty rocky acres in Southern Vermont that they are restoring to a habitat for pollinators and native species. The Dickinson poem James chose: There’s a certain Slant of light,Winter Afternoons -That oppresses, like the HeftOf Cathedral Tunes - Heavenly Hurt, it gives us -We can find no scar,But internal difference -Where the Meanings, are - None may teach it - Any -‘Tis the seal Despair -An imperial afflictionSent us of the Air - When it comes, the Landscape listens -Shadows - hold their breath -When it goes, ‘tis like the DistanceOn the look of Death - Fascicle 13, Sheet 3, (Fr320, J258) c. early 1862 Twilight GloryJames Crews When wonder feels impossible,I know I’m meant to turn towardthe nearest inch of life—the smallbody of a rabbit, for instance,resting in the grass at twilight,ears perked for the quick footfallof any danger. How often have I livedlike that, emergency lurking aroundeach new corner, fear stalking meeven on an evening walk in summer?Tonight, I stop in the middleof the road when I notice the waninglight pouring through the delicatered skin of the rabbit’s ear, the waysun illuminates a piece of stained-glassfrom behind as well as from within. Other Dickinson poems mentioned: Because I could not stop for Death – (look for this poem to be covered in Season 5!) The difference between Fear and Despair – Safe Despair that Raves Agony is Frugal A Wounded deer leaps highest (Please note these versions of the poems, though the ones available online, do not necessarily use Dickinson’s original punctuation.) People mentioned in the interview: Kemi Alabi’s Melody or Witchcraft episode Transcendentalists Calvinists Mary Oliver Ross Gay Campbell McGrath David Clewell Albert Goldbarth Stephen Dunn Jane Hirshfield Naomi Shihab Nye The full fragment quote we referenced is “Flowers are so enticing, I fear that they are sins like gambling or apostasy.” This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe

The Melody or Witchcraft podcast interviews begin with a love for poetry, its craft, and a major literary ancestor: Emily Dickinson. I’m your host, Kathryn Petruccelli, a poet, workshop leader, Substacker, & former guide for the Emily Dickinson Museum in Amherst, Massachusetts. Listen in to hear about the concentric circles of the past and the present. Names or poetic references are fleshed out or linked to in the show notes if not in the moment. Thanks for being a listener! Rate us on Spotify HERE, or Apple Podcasts HERE. kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com for complete notes, photos, and links. I don’t remember how I started following Sunu Chandy on social media, but I immediately understood that her obvious commitment to the issues she believed in were things I also felt strongly about. The day I arranged to talk to Sunu, happened to be the 25th anniversary of the 911 tragedy. What I didn’t know when we first scheduled things, was her personal connection to the events of that day. Please note that there is also a “Bonus Bit” associated with Sunu’s interview. You’ll find that brief audio separately. In Episode 21, Sunu & I discuss communal grief, the risk it takes to take care of each other, her civil rights law work, & the complicated nature of standing in one’s truth. (Recorded September 11, 2026) Sunu P. Chandy (she/her) is a social justice activist including through her work as a poet and a civil rights attorney. She is the daughter of immigrants from Kerala, India, and lives in Washington, DC with her family. Her collection of poems, My Dear Comrades, was published by Regal House. She is also a Senior Advisor with Democracy Forward, and on the board of the Transgender Law Center. Sunu is a proud alum of Earlham College in Richmond, Indiana, Northeastern Law School in Boston, Massachusetts, and she completed her MFA in Creative Writing from Queens College/CUNY. Sunu has been recognized as one of the Queer Women of Washington. The Dickinson poem Sunu chose: I measure every Grief I meetWith narrow, probing, eyes –I wonder if It weighs like Mine –Or has an Easier size. I wonder if They bore it long –Or did it just begin –I could not tell the Date of Mine –It feels so old a pain – I wonder if it hurts to live –And if They have to try –And whether – could They choose between –It would not be – to die – I note that Some – gone patient long –At length, renew their smile –An imitation of a LightThat has so little Oil – I wonder if when Years have piled –Some Thousands – on the Harm –That hurt them early – such a lapseCould give them any Balm – Or would they go on aching stillThrough Centuries of Nerve –Enlightened to a larger Pain –In Contrast with the Love – The Grieved – are many – I am told –There is the various Cause –Death – is but one – and comes but once –And only nails the eyes – There’s Grief of Want – and grief of Cold –A sort they call “Despair” –There’s Banishment from native Eyes –In sight of Native Air – And though I may not guess the kind –Correctly – yet to meA piercing Comfort it affordsIn passing Calvary – To note the fashions – of the Cross –And how they’re mostly worn –Still fascinated to presumeThat Some – are like my own – Fascicle 27, Sheet 2, (Fr550, J561) c. Summer 1863 I Like Your PlantSunu Chandy For the second timefrom my bedroom windowI see the storybook witch ladyat her patio balcony. The first, the dayafter Great-Granny died. The second,almost five months later, the weekendof what would have beenGreat-Granny’s 98th birthdayand the day we held her memorialservice in our living room. The neighbor has wildwhite hair going in all directions,and a salmon-colored baggy T-shirtwith some design I cannot decipherfrom my stationaryPeloton bicycle. As Alex fake yells at meduring fake hit and hills spin class, I see heronly during my standingclimbs. At first, she’s stretchingboth hands to the sky. But thenshe starts gripping. Five floorsabove the ground,she’s gripping the railing. I know there are so many reasons to gripa railing. I know there are timesI’ve gripped a railing. She keeps stretchingand then gripping. When I go up the fakemountain and Alex fake yellsat me on the fake bike, I’m worryingnow about the very not fakeneighbor. She’s closingher eyes. It’s like she’s grippingand praying. I am getting more worriedeach time I come down from each fakehillside. I open the window,hoping the noise of that smallmovement across the spacewill be enough. When it’s not, from my fake bike,I say Good Morning in a mediumloud voice, hoping it’s enough. It breaksher trance and she looksaround, but does not see me. I’m insidea window, across a concretecourtyard and two floorsup. As she’s lookingaround, my class ends. I’m not surewhat comes next. I notice two plantson her patio. One is a small fiddleleaf fig, like mine used to be. I finda pathway. I said Hi there,I like your plant. I thinkI have one like that too. She looksup. She says Hi. Yes, it’s growingnicely. It has doubled in sizesince it arrived here. I am late now for gettingready for churchas my few minutes of shower-timewas spent with our neighbor. I had noidea what to say, or if to say anything at allto this strangeracross the way, this person,our neighbor. I didn’t want to saysomething as loadedas: Are you okay?I didn’t want to sayI’m thinking againof my friend’s extendedfamily member who took his lifelast week. That’s why I couldn’tstay with herin Philly. I didn’t want to sayour friend’s spouse, our age,just started hospice this weekafter two yearswith cancer. I didn’t want to saywe lost our Great Grannyearlier this year. And George Uncle too.Or that we are celebrating Great-Granny’slife this afternoon. I didn’t wantto mention Jen’s essays on nervousness,healing, and sometimes, how closethe line can be. But I managed to say: I likeyour plant. I have one, like that too. Other Dickinson Poems Mentioned: Tell all the truth but tell it slant – (covered in Audrey Molloy’s episode of Melody or Witchcraft) I like a look of Agony Writers & works mentioned: Mark Nepo’s “If You Want a True Friend” James Crews (James’ Melody or Witchcraft episode releases October 19, 2026) Tayari Jone’s novel Kin Marie Howe’s “What the Living Do” Jane Kenyon’s “Otherwise” Audre Lorde June Jordan’s “Poetry for the People” Marge Piercy’s “To Be of Use,” from Circles on the Water Naomi Shihab Nye’s “Gate A4” This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kathrynpetruccelli.substack.com/subscribe