OCF Crosspoint Podcast

Episode Summary Every generation complains about the one coming behind it, and for today's military leaders, much of that frustration lands on Gen Z. My guest this episode, Sarah Carter, is a U.S. Merchant Marine Academy graduate and former Navy P-3 and P-8 pilot who finished her service as executive officer of the President's Emergency Operations Center in the White House Military Office. She now coaches leaders with Arrowhead Leadership Consulting (arrowhead-leadership.com) and has presented at the Caleb Challenge Career Transition Strategies Workshop at OCF's White Sulphur Springs. Carter explains how a generation raised with more structure, supervision, and adult involvement had fewer chances to develop five critical skills, and why the military is well suited to building several of them. She offers practical guidance for officers leading young service members, for leaders transitioning into civilian roles, and for Gen Zers themselves. The goal isn't lowering standards—it's becoming more deliberate about preparing people to meet them. Related episode: For more on career transition, listen to Maj Gen Pete Peterson, USAF (Ret.), in "Not wrong or right, just left or right": Planning ahead for career transitions. Questions answered and themes covered in this interview include: What skills is Gen Z missing? Many Gen Z adults have had fewer opportunities to develop five critical skills: creativity, problem-solving, independence, autonomy, and communication (including socialization). The gap traces back to childhood. Carter points to the 1981 abduction of Adam Walsh. Amplified by a new 24-hour news cycle and later America's Most Wanted, it left many parents afraid to send kids outside to play. This began a decline in outdoor play through the 1990s and into the early 2000s, hindering certain types of creativity and imaginative play. Indoors, a stick can no longer become a sword or an oar, and single-purpose toys replace imagination. A child holds up a juice box and a caregiver opens it—no problem-solving or words required. Early video games at least had a wire that kept kids on the same couch talking; today's gamers can play strangers anywhere in the country and beyond without saying a word. Leaders who feel like they're parenting young employees are partly right. Carter calls it developing and an opportunity to help them grow "not just in your company or your military unit, but in their lifetime." What do leaders get wrong about Gen Z? Common complaints about Gen Z—that they're lazy, avoid eye contact, can't communicate without a phone or laptop, and just don't "get it"—are often misdiagnoses of something else, such as unclear priorities or inexperience. Take laziness. Carter advises leaders to "check your priorities and how you've communicated them." A young person who doesn't know your priorities may be focused on something they see as more important, and look lazy as a result. Limited eye contact usually reflects inexperience and uncertainty. Until now, most Gen Zers have related to adults as teachers or coaches. Those were transactional relationships with no expectation of ever reaching a level playing field. A professional setting is the first place they're expected to grow toward near-peer relationships. That's trainable. Set the expectation early: "One day you're going to be where I am. We're going to have a more near-peer conversation. How I'll note your understanding is you looking at me." Why does Gen Z ask "why"? Usually out of inexperience, not pushback. When the situation allows, the best response is to answer it. Many young officers and enlisted members don't yet see the big picture or where they fit in it. Their schooling also taught them that asking why gets them the answer for the test, so an early "why" can sound like they're hunting for one. Carter remembers asking why as a young ensign and hearing, "You don't need to know right now." Previous generations largely accepted a keep-your-head-down approach, but that no longer cuts it. A Gen Zer who doesn't get an answer can chase another opportunity, search the Internet, or ask peers. Depending on how jaded those peers are, the answer may not be the one you want them to hear. Explaining isn't always appropriate, but when it is, answering why fills the knowledge gap and earns buy-in. How do I develop a junior officer who needs constant direction? Start with self-reflection, then replace instructions with questions. Carter asks frustrated leaders: Did you have it all figured out when you were in their spot? She points to photos of herself as a brand-new ensign covered head to toe in mud and riding a tricycle in her flight suit—hardly setting the leadership example. Next, examine how you communicated expectations. If the honest answer is "they should have just known," that's not the right answer. Then ask for their thought process: What are you considering? What's the end state? How will we achieve it? What am I missing? What more do you need from me? That turns direction into "a dialogue and not just a dictation," jumpstarting problem-solving. To keep development from sliding into micromanagement, set a timeline (weekly developmental conversations for three or six months, for example) and a clear expectation of what they should handle on their own. How do veterans lead Gen Z employees in a civilian job? Recognize that the inexperience runs both ways, then lean on the planning skills that military service built. Even a very experienced leader is inexperienced in the civilian realm, so the friction is mutual. Carter suggests turning "why" back around: Why are you going about it that way? What are you really asking? Also ask the people you lead what they expect of you; the answer may be very different from the military's. Even "I don't know, bro" is a good answer—it lets you tell them what they can expect. The most valuable skill to carry over is planning. The military lays out a "golden path" for progression; the civilian world doesn't do a great job with that. When an assistant site manager Carter coaches said his promotion goal was to "communicate better," she asked, "How are we going to do it?" That deeper digging is what military people are conditioned to do. How can Gen Z succeed in their first job? Take ownership of building relationships, learning the organization, and asking the questions you need answered. Many Gen Zers join an organization based on a job description or mission statement they read online. When it isn't what they expected, they leave quickly. Carter's question for them: How much time did you invest in actually getting to know the organization? Relationships at work also look different. They're no longer transactional, like those with teachers and coaches. Instead, they're a new type of relationship you have to develop. Also, don't expect answers to simply show up, the way they did when an assignment meant reading textbook pages 10 through 87 for a test. "Now it's on you to ask the questions to get the information that you need to grow." Before you ask, reflect on what you're really trying to learn, so your question gets at the heart of it.

Highlights Summary If work-life balance is a bad word, then what should we call it instead? And what happens when you get the decision wrong? Those two questions surfaced in a short interview debrief with Lt Col Jeff Miller, USAF (Ret.), after the formal conversation had wrapped up but before we stopped recording. When pressed on what should replace the word balance—since even "integration" still smuggles balance back in—Miller lands on three words: live on mission. Military duty and family both become parts of that mission rather than two things weighed against each other, and Proverbs 3:5–6 becomes the path from a convoluted decision to a straight one. Miller then turns to something driven, objective-oriented officers often need to hear: God doesn't value getting every decision right. He values your heart. Miller, an OCF local leader for ROTC at Mississippi State University, spent 34 years in the Air Force. Questions answered and themes covered in this segment include: What should a Christian pursue instead of work-life balance? Live on mission for Jesus with military duty and family both understood as parts of that mission rather than two things weighed against each other. Jeff Miller landed on this phrasing after concluding that even "integration" still implies balance, and that the pull toward balance is really a desire to run your own agenda and keep life under control. He anchors the alternative in Proverbs 3:5–6: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, do not lean on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths." Miller reads that progressively: first trusting God with the outcomes you fear will fail, then refusing to map out the chain of career moves that supposedly leads where you want, and then honoring what God values. The result is a straight path instead of a twisted one, and the confidence to explain your decisions to a spouse or to your fellowship. Will God still use me if I make the wrong career decision? Yes. God does not value career performance, perfection, or getting every decision right—he values your heart. Miller observes that military officers are driven, objective-oriented, and pursuing excellence, and that those instincts follow them into spiritual life, where they can harden into a sense that a wrong turn disqualifies you. He compares it instead to a father who wouldn't reject a child for a mistake, but receives them, course-corrects, and keeps working. The response to a wrong decision is to acknowledge it, repent to your family and to the Lord, and humbly start over. Miller adds that the destination we enter is often not the one God wanted in the first place, which is precisely why we hear "recalculating." God has prepared work for us to walk in and will get us there; our part is to cooperate early and often.

OCF Crosspoint Show Notes with Lt Col Jeff Miller, USAF (Ret.) Opening Summary "How does a Christian in the military achieve balance between work and family?" A cadet asked Lt Col Jeff Miller, USAF (Ret.), that question during a panel event for ROTC, and after 34 years in the Air Force, 34 years of marriage, and four children, Jeff realized he didn't have a good answer. Neither did the seasoned officers around him. One active-duty squadron commander admitted he felt like he was failing his family, his squadron, and Jesus every day. That unsettling moment sent Miller into a study of Scripture that reframed the question entirely. Instead of balance, he offers a different word: ascendancy—Christ's priority so eclipsing every other priority that his values become yours, and those values guide every competing decision. Miller, an OCF local leader for ROTC at Mississippi State University, unpacks that framework, what biblical rest is, and how to discern a hard season from an unsustainable one. A companion Bible study by Jeff Miller on this topic is in editing and will be posted at ocfusa.org soon—link to follow. Questions answered and themes covered in this interview include: How does a Christian in the military balance work and family? Balance is likely the wrong goal. The nature of military service does not lend itself to balance, and what most people are seeking when they seek balance is control—a life that feels manageable. Jeff Miller describes it as sitting on a seesaw waiting for someone of equal weight, only to have an 800-pound gorilla drop onto the other end: a national crisis, a deployment, a command billet where you are effectively owned by the organization, a child with special needs, or a personal struggle you brought on yourself. None of those are within your control. Miller's own attempt to answer the question from a panel stage amounted to little more than warning cadets to tell their future spouse what they were getting into. The better question, he concluded, is not how to balance two priorities but whether Christ is ascendant over both. How do I put Christ first in a demanding military career? Study Christ closely enough to know what he values and let those values decide the tradeoffs because when his values become yours, you can ask which principle he values most in this moment. Putting Christ first means letting him ascend over, eclipse, and swallow up every other priority, including family. Jeff Miller calls this ascendancy, drawing on Luke 14, where Jesus says that anyone who loves family more than him cannot be his disciple, and on the parables of the pearl and the hidden treasure, where the finder sells everything without hesitating (Matthew 13:44–46). Practically, ascendancy works like this: when you study Christ closely enough to know what he values, his values become yours, and you can ask which principle he values most in this moment. Sometimes the answer is that military duty takes precedence and family runs at a temporary deficit; at other times, it might mean the opposite. Miller admits he entered service with Christ merely augmenting his own agenda; ascendancy means Christ is the agenda. Single service members can ask the same question of work and life. What's the difference between Biblical rest and taking time off? Rest is not the cessation of movement. In Matthew 11:28–30, Jesus invites the weary to take his yoke—an instrument of work—and learn from him, promising rest for their souls. Jeff Miller notes that taking a master's yoke in that culture meant submitting to that master's instruction: put yourself under my program, and I'll show you how to find rest. That reframes Sabbath. Getting away from the workplace or doing nothing at all isn't the point; ceasing normal activity in order to reflect on what God has done, what he has given you strength to do, and who he is (and to give thanks) is the point. Family fun is good but a distant second. Miller confesses that his beach vacations used to be packed so full that he came home exhausted, having never sat still to watch the sun come up and meditate on God's Word. How can a Christian find rest during a high ops tempo or deployment? Rest travels with you. In a high-tempo environment, the rhythm of a weekly Sabbath may not be available, but daily rest is, even if found only in 5-minute increments. Military life has hurry-up-and-wait moments built into it: heavy information loads and rapid decisions, then a pause. Jeff Miller's counsel is to memorize Scripture so that you have something to reflect on in those pauses, to thank God for the surge he just carried you through, and to ask for help with what's ahead. Waiting for a deployed chapel service or a real day off usually means waiting a long time. Miller applies the same principle in retirement: he swims laps for half an hour daily, where there's no conversation and nothing to look at, and meditates on Scripture—coming out physically rested and spiritually restored. How do I know if a demanding assignment is God's calling or not? Three sources of guidance apply: God's Word, the Holy Spirit, and the counsel of wise people around you. God's Word tells you what God values, which is the starting point for sorting through competing priorities. Jeff Miller adds a hard question to weigh alongside it: can anyone else fill your role? In general, someone can almost always fill your place in the military, but no one will ever fill your place as a husband, wife, mother, or father. The Holy Spirit teaches, but struggles to speak to someone who isn't in the Word and hasn't taken the time to ask. And wise counsel requires actually being in fellowship, which is difficult when you move every one to three years. This is one reason Miller points to the OCF network for relationships that cross assignments and miles. After weighing all three, you have to act, and the action may be drastic. Can a Christian officer step back from career advancement and still be faithful? Yes. If God calls you to separate or slow down, you should do it, and he will take care of you. Jeff Miller is one example: he stepped off the fast track and moved to the reserves, serving in seasons that ranged from six days a month to full-time as an Air Reserve technician. That pace let him meet his obligations at home while staying in uniform for 34 years and walking alongside young officers. He also describes a friend who left active duty for the airlines specifically because Christ was ascendant, using the income to support ministry and the travel benefits for long-term mission work overseas. Miller acknowledges the cost: he watched classmates reach flag rank and felt the envy. But he wouldn't trade the joy of serving quietly and helping younger commanders succeed.

Opening Summary COL Chels Chae, USA (Ret.), served nearly 30 years in the Army, from West Point graduate, infantry officer and 75th Ranger Regiment veteran to commander of the Wolfhound Battalion at Schofield Barracks. He finished his career as Chief of Staff for Joint Task Force Homeland Defense and Deputy Chief of Staff for U.S. Army Pacific. For 13 of those years, he and his wife, Christine, walked through their son's mental health crisis, a season no military school prepared him for. In this episode, Chae talks with host Josh Jackson about the difference between competence and dependence, why his prayers once sounded like mission briefings, and how a solitary drive to a hospital in Pasadena, Calif., reshaped the way he talks to God. If you've been trained to project strength while privately carrying something you can't fix, this conversation offers a hard-won picture of God's providence—usually visible only in the rearview mirror. Chae is the author of the devotional One Life Under God: Back to Faith—A Daily Roadmarch. More information at his author site. Questions answered and themes covered in this interview include: How do you find your identity in Christ after retiring from the military? Start by separating who you are from what you've done. Rank, position, and assignment all change; identity in Christ doesn't. Twenty years ago, Chae says, he would have answered the identity question with "I'm an Army officer, I'm a Ranger, airborne." Today he answers first as a follower of Jesus Christ, then as Christine's husband and a father—and everything else, he says, is simply something he has done. That reordering came shortly after retirement, when he realized someone else was sitting in his office, someone else was commanding his units, and life just kept moving. He describes God asking him a direct question in that season: "Who are you now?" Titles were never meant to define him. They were window dressing. Why do my prayers feel like a mission briefing? Because military training teaches you to arrive with the problem already solved—and that habit follows you into prayer. Chae's prayers, by his own account, followed the briefing format: explain the problem, present the proposed solution, ask God to bless the plan. He wasn't intentionally excluding God; he simply assumed he already understood what needed to happen. The danger of leadership, he says, is believing that a careful enough plan and enough hard work can solve almost anything. Eventually a season arrived where no rank, no leadership training, no planning process, and no amount of grit produced an answer. He now calls that one of the greatest gifts God gave him, because it taught him the difference between competence and dependence—and mature Christian leadership, he argues, requires both. How do I trust God when I can't fix my child's problem? You trust God's character instead of your own ability to solve it. Chae and Christine walked a 13-year journey with a son in a mental health crisis, initially diagnosed as a lifelong condition. From the outside, the family looked fine—promotions, a strong marriage, active in church. Inside, he faced something none of his skills touched: gathering information, developing courses of action, deciding, leading. He kept asking God to change the circumstances and heal his son; looking back, he believes God was changing him instead, exposing where he trusted his own ability over God's authority and sovereignty. Faith, as he defines it, isn't confidence in what you hold in your hands—it's confidence that God remains good whether you understand his plan or not. What held them together was finding a private place and praying out loud together. How do you pray when you're angry at God? Pray honestly, without a mask—anger, tears, and unanswered questions included. Chae's most formative prayer wasn't composed or reverent. He was alone in a car, driving to the hospital where his son was, yelling and weeping, asking God why an innocent child at the very start of his life had to go through this. In the silence afterward, he sensed God's answer: "Now you know how you should pray to me." He anchors this in Psalm 22, which he says gives him permission to be honest with God without pretense or protocol. If David (and later Jesus) could say "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Psalm 22:1), nothing needs hiding from a God who already sees the heart. The same season changed what he asks for—less "fix this, Lord," more "what do you want to teach me today?" How do you know God's will for your future as a Christian? Stop trying to figure out God's plan for 10 years from now and start walking faithfully with him today. God is the only one who lives on what Chae calls "the far side of the future"—he already knows tomorrow, and the lamp you're holding only lights the ground directly in front of you. Chae tells the story of a young manager who had decided he'd change jobs in a year; Chae asked whether every decision between now and then would be colored by that plan. A week later the man dropped it and committed to being faithful to his team—"Don't worry, God's got you." Chae's own summary of Jesus is blunt: don't worry about tomorrow, seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness (Matthew 6:33-34). Give today the effort God assigned you, and be able to say you were loyal to it. Why can't I see God's plan while I'm going through it? You usually don't see it in the moment—you see it looking back. Chae puts it this way: nothing in the windshield helped him figure out what the future held for his sons or his family. But in the rearview mirror he sees all of it—God's faithfulness, goodness, and purpose he couldn't have identified while he was living it. He describes being embarrassed, in hindsight, by how much energy he spent on the horrifying feeling of not knowing what came next, only to look back and say, "Oh. Okay. Now I see." His own immigration story reads the same way: born in London, back to Korea, then to New York and Chicago at 12 as his father chased a better education for the family. He didn't recognize God's providence at the time. He sees it now. Asked what he'll say first in heaven, his answer is one word—aha—because that's where he'll finally see all of it. Editor's note: In this episode, the passage about going into your room and closing the door to pray is cited as Matthew 5. The correct reference is Matthew 6:6, part of Jesus' teaching on prayer in the Sermon on the Mount.

Summary Can real discipleship survive in a world of influencers, algorithms, and unlimited Christian content—especially inside a transient military life? In this episode of OCF Crosspoint, we continue the conversation on influencer culture with Lt Gen Clint Hinote, USAF (Ret.), and CH(COL) Light Shin, USA. Together they draw a sharp line between being inspired, informed, and truly discipled, and explain why spiritual formation depends on proximity, accountability, and community rather than content consumed alone. They tackle discipleship amid PCS moves and deployments, what it means to point others to Christ rather than yourself in uniform, and why grace—not performance—sustains it all. The episode closes with one practical first step any Christian military leader can take this week. Resources mentioned: The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt Questions answered and themes covered in this interview include: How can Christians in the military stay discipled through frequent moves and deployments? Frequent moves, deployments, and training cycles make the in-person proximity that discipleship requires harder, but a transient military life also creates constant opportunities because new people are always arriving and need to be welcomed. The practical key is welcoming the stranger: those already established at a base should intentionally invite newcomers into a small group, offer a meal, even offer to pick them up. Practical advice for newcomers? Don't wait; get plugged in fast. This is a strong argument for keeping small groups open rather than closed. Discipleship also doesn't have to last a lifetime to be real. Jesus discipled His followers for about three years, roughly a single assignment cycle, so the quality of the time matters more than its length. Video tools can also help sustain a relationship after a PCS. What does "follow me as I follow Christ" mean for a Christian military leader? For a Christian military leader, "follow me as I follow Christ" is first something you do rather than something you say. You live your faith out consistently, and that example earns the credibility to explain it when others notice you're different. When people ask what makes you different, you point past yourself to Christ, admitting you're imperfect and fail often but are genuinely trying to follow Him—a 1 Peter 3:15 moment. The deeper aim isn't building a personal brand but acting as a signpost pointing to Christ as the ultimate Commander, much like faithfully carrying out the commander's intent. Following the Apostle Paul's example also means imitating a life that lays down its rights, absorbs costs, serves others, and is willing to suffer well—not one measured by worldly success. Philippians 2 is an excellent chapter for further study on these themes. Can Christians be discipled through podcasts, sermons, and Bible apps, or do they need community? Short answer: No, content cannot disciple you. Christian content like podcasts, sermons, and Bible apps is genuinely valuable, and God can use it powerfully, but on its own it isn't discipleship because consuming content is largely one-way, while real discipleship is two-way and relational. You can't be truly formed by a curated persona or a platform; formation happens through proximity—sharing meals, offering hospitality, doing life together, and holding one another accountable. A helpful picture is apprenticeship: a master shows the apprentice, works alongside them, then releases them to do the work while staying available. That's a progression content can't replicate, especially for leadership and the Christian life. Content is best treated as supplemental to connection and grounded first in Scripture. Barna research (2022) found that 39% of Christians aren't engaged in any form of discipleship. How is Christian discipleship based on grace instead of performance? Christian discipleship is grounded in grace rather than performance. It isn't about earning check marks or leveling up spiritually, but about responding to what Christ has already accomplished. The means of grace include knowing and storing God's Word in your heart (not just reading it on a Bible app), living a life of repentance when you fall short, and resting your confidence in Christ's finished work rather than your own efforts. This kind of formation is slow—more like a slow cooker than a microwave—which can frustrate a culture that wants quick hacks. But it's freeing: unlike an algorithm that demands constant performance and can cancel you, the gospel means that when you fail, you're forgiven rather than canceled. That freedom is a distinct mark of grace-based discipleship. How can a Christian start a discipleship or mentoring relationship? A simple, concrete way to start a discipleship relationship is to invite someone to coffee—or a Coke, lunch, or a meal at home—and let honest conversation grow from there. If you're a younger or emerging leader hoping to learn from someone more experienced, invite them; most people who are worth being discipled by genuinely enjoy this and may not even realize you're interested. If you're the more seasoned leader, take the initiative with someone you'd like to know better—ask questions, get to know them, and let one conversation lead to the next until a real relationship forms. Another step is to pray, by name, for a specific person to invest in or to be invested in by. It might also be a good idea to take a fast from technology by turning off social media for a while to make space for that prayer. You can also find more information about mentoring on our website: https://ocfusa.org/mentoring Data and metrics related to the topic: Mental Health and the Anxious Generation: Nearly half (47%) of Gen Z ages 12–26 report feeling anxious often or always. More than 1 in 5 (22%) report feeling depressed often or always. Source: Gallup / Walton Family Foundation survey, 2023 Rates of anxiety among Gen Z increased 134% between 2010 and 2018. Depression rose 106% in the same period. Source: Jonathan Haidt, The Anxious Generation (2024), citing epidemiological data Loneliness and the Mentoring Gap: Young adults (18–34) report the highest loneliness rates of any age group, which is counter to the common assumption that elderly people are most at risk. Source: Gallup, 2024; Cigna national survey 24% of young people with no adult mentor say they never feel their life has meaning and purpose. With even one adult mentor, that number drops to 6%. Source: Springtide Research Institute Only 8% of Gen Z respondents say there is a religious leader they can turn to. Source: Springtide Research Institute Trust: Influencers vs Institutions: Gen Z's most trusted sources: family members (88%), friends (84%), ordinary people doing good (81%). Religious/faith leaders rank at 44% — below doctors (77%), scientists (75%), and teachers (74%). Source: Edelman Gen Z Trust Survey — 9,600 Gen Zers ages 14–24 across six markets Confidence in religious institutions fell from 60% in 2001 to 37% in 2021. Source: Gallup, cited by AEI Survey Center on American Life (2025)