“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies
“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

HR Heretics

Overview
Episodes

Details

After a decade+ of “blitz-scaling” companies, HR, talent, and People leaders now face an uncertain economy that has already seen big booms and busts. What will it take to construct the next generation of incredible businesses – and where can people leaders have the most business impact?     Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich have been through it all, the highs and the lows – IPOs, layoffs, executive turnover, board meetings, culture changes, and more. With a lineup of industry vets and experts, Nolan and Kelli break down the nitty-gritty details, trade offs, and dynamics of constructing high performing companies. Through unfiltered conversations that can only happen between seasoned practitioners – Kelli and Nolan dive deep into the kind of leadership-level strategy that often happens behind closed doors. This show is for those who are ready to ditch conventional wisdom and figure out from first principles what works for their culture, business model, and industry, with the goal of building a resilient and enduring company. You’ll come away with real guidance for seeing around corners, building enduring companies, and carving out an impactful career – plus a newly-honed bullshit detector. Topics frequently touched on in this season include: building high performing cultures, compensation negotiation, performance reviews, company design, equity, M&As, recruiting the best talent, and how to manage your own psychology as a people leader.

hrheretics.substack.com

Recent Episodes

Airbnb’s Iain Roberts on Designing HR as a Strategic Service Function
FEB 20, 2025
Airbnb’s Iain Roberts on Designing HR as a Strategic Service Function
<p>Iain Roberts, Global Head of Employee Experience at Airbnb, discusses experimenting in HR in 2025, the design-thinking reshaping organizational structures, and why CEO Brian Chesky’s ‘Founder Mode’ is much misinterpreted. Iain covers innovative approach to flexible work, cross-functional alignment, and treating employee programs as evolving products requiring continuous refinement.</p><p></p><p>*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: <a target="_blank" href="mailto:hrheretics@turpentine.co">hrheretics@turpentine.co</a></p><p>**For coaching and advising inquire at </p><p>https://kellidragovich.com/</p><p>HR Heretics is a podcast from <a target="_blank" href="https://www.turpentine.co/">Turpentine</a>.</p><p>—</p><p>Support HR Heretics Sponsor: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics"><strong>Metaview</strong></a> is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics">https://www.metaview.ai/heretics</a></p><p>—</p><p>LINK/S:</p><p>Airbnb: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.airbnb.com/">https://www.airbnb.com/</a></p><p>—</p><p>REFERENCE/S:</p><p>NVIDIA’s Jensen Huang says that IT will ‘become the HR of AI agents’:</p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://fortune.com/2025/01/09/nvidia-ceo-jensen-huangt-take-over-hr-ai-agents/">https://fortune.com/2025/01/09/nvidia-ceo-jensen-huangt-take-over-hr-ai-agents/</a></p><p>—</p><p>KEEP UP WITH IAIN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN</p><p>Iain: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertsiain/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertsiain/</a></p><p>Kelli: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/</a>Nolan: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/</a></p><p>—</p><p>TIMESTAMPS:</p><p>(00:00) Intro </p><p>(00:13) From Designer to HR Leader: Iain's Journey </p><p>(01:15) "Everything Needs to Be Designed" Philosophy </p><p>(03:09) Designing Systems of People and Structures </p><p>(04:47) Bringing Design Thinking to HR at Airbnb </p><p>(08:03) Airbnb's One Roadmap Approach: 7,000 People, One Focus </p><p>(07:21) Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up Culture & Innovation</p><p>(10:26) Tactically Transforming an HR Team with Design Thinking</p><p>(11:47) Treating HR as Products and Services </p><p>(13:14) The Future of HR Product Management </p><p>(14:36) Sponsor: Metaview</p><p>(16:30) Founder Mode: Misinterpretations and Brian Chesky's Approach</p><p>(23:00) Airbnb's Shift to a Single Product Roadmap</p><p>(26:54) Design-Led Culture and Attention to Detail at Airbnb</p><p>(28:48) Prototyping & Iterating with Human Experiences: Challenges</p><p>(30:50) Airbnb's Gathering Strategy and Flexible Work Philosophy</p><p>(33:48) Airbnb's Contrarian Stance on Remote Work (Live & Work Anywhere)</p><p>(39:45) Wrap</p><p></p><p></p><p></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://hrheretics.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_1">hrheretics.substack.com</a>
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40 MIN
Board Seats and Beyond, with Asana's Head of People Anna Binder
FEB 18, 2025
Board Seats and Beyond, with Asana's Head of People Anna Binder
<p>Anna Binder, Head of People at Asana, shares her journey as an HR leader, her approach to board membership at CultureAmp, and her philosophy on talent management. The discussion covers the nitty gritty of preparing and contributing in board meetings, long-term DEI initiatives, and the importance of authentic leadership in HR, particularly highlighting the value of playing the long game in organizational development.</p><p>*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: <a target="_blank" href="mailto:hrheretics@turpentine.co">hrheretics@turpentine.co</a></p><p>**For coaching and advising inquire at <a target="_blank" href="https://kellidragovich.com/">https://kellidragovich.com/</a></p><p>HR Heretics is a podcast from <a target="_blank" href="https://www.turpentine.co/">Turpentine</a>.</p><p>—</p><p>Support HR Heretics Sponsor: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics"><strong>Metaview</strong></a> is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics">https://www.metaview.ai/heretics</a></p><p>—</p><p>LINK/S:</p><p>Asana: <a target="_blank" href="https://asana.com/">https://asana.com/</a></p><p>—</p><p>KEEP UP WITH ANNA, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN</p><p>Anna: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/annabinder/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/annabinder/</a></p><p>Kelli: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/</a>Nolan: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/</a></p><p>—</p><p>TIMESTAMPS:</p><p>(00:00) Intro(01:47) Becoming a Board Member at Culture Amp(05:33) The Importance of Taking Calls and Building Relationships(07:10) How to Prepare for and Participate Effectively on a Board(11:48) Examples of "Operating" vs. Asking the Right Questions as a Board Member(14:57) Sponsor: Metaview(16:57) Anna's Experience Building MuleSoft(19:00) Navigating Disagreements and Being "Invited to Exit"(21:12) Sharing the News and the Importance of Transparency(22:50) Finding the Right Fit and the Role of Values(25:57) Joining Asana(26:26) Ensuring Alignment During the Interview Process(29:35) How to Maintain Stamina and Interest Over a Long Tenure(31:14) Examples of Attention to Detail and Values Alignment at Asana(31:46) Examining the CEO's Calendar During Interviews(33:05) Anna's Controversial Recruiting Philosophy(33:16) Recruiting Top Talent(35:42) DEI at Asana: Long-Term Vision and Business Outcomes(39:38) The Importance of Being in the Right Room(40:09) Playing the Long Game on DEI(41:59) Encouraging People to Enter the Field(44:31) Outro</p><p></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://hrheretics.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_1">hrheretics.substack.com</a>
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45 MIN
Tucking In Top Performers
FEB 14, 2025
Tucking In Top Performers
<p>Nolan and Kelli talk about retaining top-performing employees (the crucial 1%) and emphasize that compensation alone isn't sufficient; leaders must combine verbal recognition, proactive compensation strategies, transparency, and genuine appreciation. They stress the importance of eliminating compensation anxiety for these key employees and building long-term relationships, and argue that thoughtful, personalized treatment of top talent ultimately benefits both the individual and organization.</p><p></p><p>Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: <a target="_blank" href="mailto:hrheretics@turpentine.co">hrheretics@turpentine.co</a></p><p>**For coaching and advising inquire at <a target="_blank" href="https://kellidragovich.com/">https://kellidragovich.com/</a></p><p>HR Heretics is a podcast from <a target="_blank" href="https://www.turpentine.co/">Turpentine</a>.</p><p>—</p><p>Support HR Heretics Sponsor: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics"><strong>Metaview</strong></a> is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics">https://www.metaview.ai/heretics</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN</strong></p><p>Nolan: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/</a></p><p>Kelli: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>TIMESTAMPS:</strong></p><p>(00:00) Introdu(00:13) Defining the Top 1%(00:57) Shifting Trends in Job Offers and Compensation(02:04) Appreciating Top Talent(03:01) The Importance of Appreciation Beyond Monetary Compensation(03:56) Balancing Appreciation and Competitive Compensation(05:02) Transparency in Compensation Decisions(07:49) Sponsor: Metaview(09:43) Four Pillars: Appreciation, Thoughtfulness, Proactivity, and Transparency(12:08) The Expectation of Transparency(12:43) Long-Term Career Involvement with Top Performers(14:21) Reciprocity in Employer-Employee Relationships(14:53) Wrap</p><p></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://hrheretics.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_1">hrheretics.substack.com</a>
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15 MIN
Anthropic’s Interview Rules
FEB 12, 2025
Anthropic’s Interview Rules
<p>Nolan and Kelli talk about AI's role in hiring processes, sparked by Anthropic's policy against using AI in job applications. They explore the tension between AI as a valuable tool and its potential for interview deception, ultimately advocating for a more integrated approach where candidates openly demonstrate their AI usage skills rather than attempting to restrict or hide it.</p><p>Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: <a target="_blank" href="mailto:hrheretics@turpentine.co">hrheretics@turpentine.co</a></p><p>**For coaching and advising inquire at <a target="_blank" href="https://kellidragovich.com/">https://kellidragovich.com/</a></p><p>HR Heretics is a podcast from <a target="_blank" href="https://www.turpentine.co/">Turpentine</a>.</p><p>—</p><p>Support HR Heretics Sponsor: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics"><strong>Metaview</strong></a> is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics">https://www.metaview.ai/heretics</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN</strong></p><p>Nolan: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/</a></p><p>Kelli: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THIS PODCAST:</strong></p><p>Gizmodo Article: “<strong>Anthropic Wants You to Use AI—Just Not to Apply for Its Jobs”</strong></p><p><a target="_blank" href="https://gizmodo.com/anthropic-wants-you-to-use-ai-just-not-to-apply-for-its-jobs-2000558490">https://gizmodo.com/anthropic-wants-you-to-use-ai-just-not-to-apply-for-its-jobs-2000558490</a></p><p>Anthropic: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.anthropic.com/">https://www.anthropic.com/</a></p><p>Final Round AI: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.finalroundai.com/">https://www.finalroundai.com/</a></p><p>Sora: <a target="_blank" href="https://openai.com/sora/">https://openai.com/sora/</a></p><p>—</p><p><strong>TIMESTAMPS:</strong></p><p>(00:00) Intro(01:26) Initial Reactions and Perspectives to Anthropic’s Policy(02:23) AI as a Tool vs. Replacement for Human Skills(03:36) AI-Powered Interview Cheating.(04:11) Practical AI Usage Throughout the Application Process(06:21) Sponsor: Metaview(08:15) Authenticity vs. AI Assistance(10:09) Polarities and Gradients of AI Usage(11:16) The Problem of Cheating and the "Open Book" Interview Approach(12:30) Using AI During In-Person Interviews(13:33) Adapting to AI in Hiring and Education(14:18) Audience Engagement and Future Solutions(15:03) Wrap</p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://hrheretics.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_1">hrheretics.substack.com</a>
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15 MIN
TikTok & Tech Layoff Strategy with Jesse Tinsley
FEB 7, 2025
TikTok & Tech Layoff Strategy with Jesse Tinsley
<p>Entrepreneur <strong>Jesse Tinsley</strong> - founder of Employer.com and other successful tech ventures - discusses his consortium's bid to acquire TikTok alongside MrBeast. The dialogue with Kelli and Nolan examines the philosophical and practical implications of executive compensation reduction during corporate restructuring, while illustrating how digital discourse can evolve into substantive debate when moved from social media to direct dialogue.</p><p>*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: <a target="_blank" href="mailto:hrheretics@turpentine.co">hrheretics@turpentine.co</a></p><p>**For coaching and advising inquire at <a target="_blank" href="https://kellidragovich.com/">https://kellidragovich.com/</a></p><p>HR Heretics is a podcast from <a target="_blank" href="https://www.turpentine.co/">Turpentine</a>.</p><p>—</p><p>Support HR Heretics Sponsor: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics"><strong>Metaview</strong></a> is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics">https://www.metaview.ai/heretics</a></p><p>—</p><p>LINK/S:</p><p>Employer.com: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.employer.com/">https://www.employer.com/</a></p><p>—</p><p>KEEP UP WITH JESSE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN</p><p>Jesse: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessetinsley">https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessetinsley</a></p><p>Nolan: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/</a></p><p>Kelli: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/</a></p><p>—</p><p>TIMESTAMPS:</p><p>(00:00) Intro(01:55) Update on the TikTok Acquisition(02:25) Motivation Behind Acquiring TikTok with Mr. Beast(04:38) How TikTok Fits into Jesse's Business Portfolio(07:07) Discussion on Executive Compensation and Layoffs(10:28) Specifics on Executive Salary Cuts(11:00) Sponsor: Metaview(12:57) Executive Compensation(15:34) The Importance of Leadership Accountability(18:16) Cultural Impact of Executive Pay Cuts(19:12) Wrap(21:05) Outro</p><p></p><p></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://hrheretics.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_1">hrheretics.substack.com</a>
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24 MIN