“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies
“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

HR Heretics

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Episodes

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After a decade+ of “blitz-scaling” companies, HR, talent, and People leaders now face an uncertain economy that has already seen big booms and busts. What will it take to construct the next generation of incredible businesses – and where can people leaders have the most business impact?     Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich have been through it all, the highs and the lows – IPOs, layoffs, executive turnover, board meetings, culture changes, and more. With a lineup of industry vets and experts, Nolan and Kelli break down the nitty-gritty details, trade offs, and dynamics of constructing high performing companies. Through unfiltered conversations that can only happen between seasoned practitioners – Kelli and Nolan dive deep into the kind of leadership-level strategy that often happens behind closed doors. This show is for those who are ready to ditch conventional wisdom and figure out from first principles what works for their culture, business model, and industry, with the goal of building a resilient and enduring company. You’ll come away with real guidance for seeing around corners, building enduring companies, and carving out an impactful career – plus a newly-honed bullshit detector. Topics frequently touched on in this season include: building high performing cultures, compensation negotiation, performance reviews, company design, equity, M&As, recruiting the best talent, and how to manage your own psychology as a people leader.

hrheretics.substack.com

Recent Episodes

VC Brett Queener Unpacks AI-Native Startups and the End of Grunt Work
APR 10, 2025
VC Brett Queener Unpacks AI-Native Startups and the End of Grunt Work
<p>HR Heretics welcomes back guest Brett Queener, Managing Director at Bonfire Ventures, for a check in on the current venture landscape.</p><p>Fresh from raising a $245 million fund, Queener explores how AI is fundamentally changing software companies, emphasizing the need for rapid iteration and questioning traditional playbooks. He shares thoughtful perspectives on evaluating AI startups beyond the hype, the changing nature of talent requirements, and why successful companies must embrace a "change economy" mentality to thrive.</p><p>*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co</p><p>For coaching and advising inquire at <a target="_blank" href="https://kellidragovich.com/">https://kellidragovich.com/</a></p><p>HR Heretics is a podcast from <a target="_blank" href="https://www.turpentine.co/">Turpentine.</a></p><p>Support HR Heretics Sponsors:</p><p><strong>Planful</strong> empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to <a target="_blank" href="https://planful.com/heretics">https://planful.com/heretics</a> to see how you can transform your HR strategy.</p><p><strong>Metaview</strong> is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics">https://www.metaview.ai/heretics</a></p><p>KEEP UP WITH BRETT, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN</p><p>Brett: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/brettqueener/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/brettqueener/</a></p><p>Nolan: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/</a></p><p>Kelli: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/</a></p><p>—</p><p>LINKS:</p><p>Bonfire Ventures: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.bonfirevc.com/">https://www.bonfirevc.com/</a></p><p>—</p><p>OTHER RECOMMENDED LINKS:</p><p>The Change Economy: </p><p>—</p><p>TIMESTAMPS:</p><p>(00:00) Intro </p><p>(01:07) Bonfire's $245M New Fund </p><p>(03:24) Today's Frothy AI Market </p><p>(06:30) The 11X AI SDR Case Study </p><p>(08:18) AI's Revolutionary Impact on Products </p><p>(11:12) First-Time vs. Repeat Founders in AI </p><p>(14:39) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview</p><p>(17:38) Rethinking How Companies Operate </p><p>(19:43) Hiring in the AI Era </p><p>(22:58) Teams Getting Younger and AI Native </p><p>(25:04) The Future of Junior Roles </p><p>(28:22) The 11X Controversy Explained </p><p>(30:29) Evaluating What's Real in AI Companies </p><p>(33:29) Vibey Revenue and Real Value </p><p>(37:00) Product Viability and Renewals </p><p>(39:42) Assessing Founders and Products </p><p>(42:10) The Case for In-Office Collaboration </p><p>(44:31) The "Holy S**t" Product Moment </p><p>(46:09) Wrap</p><p></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://hrheretics.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_1">hrheretics.substack.com</a>
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46 MIN
Claude's Human-Like AI & Groundbreaking Research from Anthropic with Siadhal Magos
APR 8, 2025
Claude's Human-Like AI & Groundbreaking Research from Anthropic with Siadhal Magos
<p>In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, Metaview CEO, and Nolan Church dissect Anthropic's groundbreaking paper “<a target="_blank" href="https://www.anthropic.com/news/tracing-thoughts-language-model"><strong>Tracing the thoughts of a large language model”</strong></a><strong> </strong>released on March 27, 2025. They explore surprising findings: LLMs plan ahead rather than simply predicting next tokens, think across multiple languages simultaneously, and often present explanations that satisfy humans rather than reflecting their actual reasoning processes.</p><p>The conversation highlights the paradox of developing powerful AI systems without understanding their workings, raising implications for deployment, safety, and the "intelligence on tap" paradigm reshaping our technological relationship. We should all be paying attention.</p><p>Support HR Heretics Sponsors:</p><p><strong>Planful</strong> empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to <a target="_blank" href="https://planful.com/heretics">https://planful.com/heretics</a> to see how you can transform your HR strategy.</p><p><strong>Metaview</strong> is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics">https://www.metaview.ai/heretics</a></p><p>KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN</p><p>Siadhal: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/</a></p><p>Nolan: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/</a></p><p>Kelli: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/</a></p><p></p><p>—</p><p>LINKS:</p><p>Anthropic’s featured paper: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.anthropic.com/news/tracing-thoughts-language-model">https://www.anthropic.com/news/tracing-thoughts-language-model </a></p><p>Metaview: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/">https://www.metaview.ai/</a></p><p>—</p><p>OTHER RECOMMENDED LINKS:</p><p>Mercor: <a target="_blank" href="https://mercor.com/">https://mercor.com/</a></p><p>—</p><p>TIMESTAMPS</p><p>(00:13) Intro</p><p>(00:45) Anthropic's Mind-Blowing Paper </p><p>(01:37) LLMs Think Across Languages </p><p>(02:04) Faked Reasoning in AI Models </p><p>(02:28) AI Hallucinations Explained </p><p>(03:00) First Paragraph Reveals Uncertainty </p><p>(05:18) Beyond Next Token Prediction </p><p>(07:23) Evaluating LLMs Without Understanding </p><p>(08:44) More Human Than Software </p><p>(10:05) Why You Should Experiment With AI </p><p>(11:13) The Airplane Analogy </p><p>(12:26) Safety Concerns for Future AI </p><p>(12:54) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview</p><p>(16:27) Dario Amodei on AI Self-Policing </p><p>(18:05) OpenAI's $300B Valuation </p><p>(19:33) Intelligence on Tap </p><p>(22:02) Retraining Google Habits </p><p>(24:35) Agentic AI & Reinforcement Learning </p><p>(27:15) Human Training for AI Models </p><p>(30:25) Wrap</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://hrheretics.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_1">hrheretics.substack.com</a>
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30 MIN
Solving for False Negatives in Hiring with Arthur Matuszewski
APR 4, 2025
Solving for False Negatives in Hiring with Arthur Matuszewski
<p>Today we're excited to introduce you to an episode of 10x Recruiting, a podcast from Metaview hosted by our very own Nolan Church. 10x Recruiting is focused on conversations with top talent leaders to help listeners build world-class teams and stay ahead in the evolving recruiting landscape.</p><p>Today's guest is Arthur Matuszewski, who shares insights from his diverse career at Bridgewater, <a target="_blank" href="http://better.com/">Better.com</a>, and his firm Carrara. He emphasizes intellectual honesty, focusing on work outputs rather than titles, and avoiding false negatives in hiring. Nolan says he's one of the most insightful guests ever.</p><p>Matuszewski advocates for evaluating talent based on actual value creation rather than pedigree, and stresses the importance of adapting recruitment strategies to each org's unique context rather than relying on standardized playbooks.</p><p>Head to The 10x Recruiting Podcast on YouTube, Apple, or Spotify for more interviews like this one.</p><p></p><p>YouTube: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.youtube.com/@10x_Recruiting_pod">https://www.youtube.com/@10x_Recruiting_pod</a></p><p>Apple: </p><p></p><p>Spotify: </p><p></p><p>—</p><p>LINKS:</p><p>Arthur’s LinkedIn: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthurmatuszewski/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthurmatuszewski/</a></p><p>Carrara: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.carrara.is/">https://www.carrara.is/</a></p><p>—</p><p>TIMESTAMPS:</p><p>(00:00) Intro</p><p>(00:53) Episode preview </p><p>(05:51) Arthur's career journey overview </p><p>(07:53) Lessons learned at Bridgewater </p><p>(10:41) Recruiting for teams vs individuals </p><p>(12:35) Bridgewater's culture of experimentation </p><p>(16:47) High attrition rate and false negatives </p><p>(23:22) Better.com's rise and viral moment </p><p>(28:02) Defining intellectual honesty </p><p>(30:08) Carrara and focusing on the work </p><p>(37:56) Balancing productivity with thinking time </p><p>(40:03) Avoiding sunk costs in talent decisions </p><p>(43:31) Carrara's process for delivering winners </p><p>(45:43) Showing founders what the market is saying </p><p>(47:19) Internal vs external talent perspectives </p><p>(51:58) Wrap</p><p></p><p></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://hrheretics.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_1">hrheretics.substack.com</a>
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52 MIN
Rethinking the HRBP Role with Lucy Adams, Disruptive HR
APR 3, 2025
Rethinking the HRBP Role with Lucy Adams, Disruptive HR
<p>In this episode, Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church are joined by Lucy Adams, founder of Disruptive HR. Adams critiques traditional HR's rigid policies, advocating instead for judgment-based approaches that treat employees as grown-ups. The conversation explores challenges facing HR business partners, the evolution of DEI initiatives, and how organizations can create environments where people thrive through high-trust cultures, rather than compliance-driven systems.</p><p></p><p>*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co</p><p>For coaching and advising inquire at <a target="_blank" href="https://kellidragovich.com/">https://kellidragovich.com/</a></p><p>HR Heretics is a podcast from <a target="_blank" href="https://www.turpentine.co/">Turpentine.</a></p><p>Support HR Heretics Sponsors:</p><p><strong>Thatch</strong> makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving them customizable plans. Visit <a target="_blank" href="https://thatch.ai/HR">https://thatch.AI/HR</a> for a demo and <strong>receive a $100 gift card.</strong></p><p><strong>Planful</strong> empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to <a target="_blank" href="https://planful.com/heretics">https://planful.com/heretics</a> to see how you can transform your HR strategy.</p><p><strong>Metaview</strong> is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics">https://www.metaview.ai/heretics</a></p><p>KEEP UP WITH LUCY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN</p><p>Lucy: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucykadams/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucykadams/</a></p><p>Nolan: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/</a></p><p>Kelli: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/</a></p><p>—</p><p>LINKS:</p><p>Disruptive HR: <a target="_blank" href="https://disruptivehr.com/">https://disruptivehr.com/</a></p><p>Lucy’s article <strong>“HR Business Partner: The toughest role in HR?”:</strong> <a target="_blank" href="https://disruptivehr.com/hr-business-partner-the-toughest-role-in-hr/">https://disruptivehr.com/hr-business-partner-the-toughest-role-in-hr/</a></p><p></p><p>—</p><p>TIMESTAMPS:</p><p>(00:00) Intro</p><p>(01:17) Lucy's Background and BBC Experience</p><p>(03:08) Personal Connection and BBC Stories</p><p>(04:25) Origins of Disruptive HR</p><p>(07:00) Evolution of HR and Post-COVID Workplace Changes</p><p>(11:39) Trust and Autonomy in Workplace Decisions</p><p>(16:56) Trust as Foundation for Business Success</p><p>(17:32) Sponsors: Thatch | Planful</p><p>(20:27) Progressive HR Policies and Examples</p><p>(23:53) HR Business Partner Role Challenges</p><p>(25:13) Sponsor: Metaview</p><p>(27:55) Messy Reality of Great HR Work</p><p>(31:00) HR's Focus on Process vs. Real Impact</p><p>(33:26) Current HR Trends and Community Concerns</p><p>(35:56) DEI Evolution and Conversation Approaches</p><p>(45:53) Wrap</p><p></p><p></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://hrheretics.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_1">hrheretics.substack.com</a>
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46 MIN
Real Personal Crises at Work
APR 1, 2025
Real Personal Crises at Work
<p>In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss the profound impact of personal crises on work life. They share vulnerable stories about caring for ill family members—Kelli's mother's recent stage four cancer diagnosis and Nolan's father-in-law's illness and passing. </p><p>They reflect on the impossibility of compartmentalizing personal trauma, the importance of workplace support networks, and practical advice for both those experiencing crises and colleagues supporting them.</p><p>*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.co</p><p>For coaching and advising inquire at <a target="_blank" href="https://kellidragovich.com/">https://kellidragovich.com/</a></p><p>HR Heretics is a podcast from <a target="_blank" href="https://www.turpentine.co/">Turpentine.</a></p><p>Support HR Heretics Sponsors:</p><p><strong>Thatch</strong> makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving them customizable plans. Visit <a target="_blank" href="https://thatch.AI/HR">https://thatch.AI/HR</a> for a demo and <strong>receive a $100 gift card.</strong> </p><p><strong>Planful</strong> empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to <a target="_blank" href="https://planful.com/heretics">https://planful.com/heretics</a> to see how you can transform your HR strategy.</p><p><strong>Metaview</strong> is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.metaview.ai/heretics">https://www.metaview.ai/heretics</a></p><p>KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN</p><p>Nolan: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/</a></p><p>Kelli: <a target="_blank" href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/</a></p><p>—</p><p>TIMESTAMPS:</p><p>(00:00) Intro </p><p>(02:24) Impact of Crisis on Professional Life </p><p>(03:19) Becoming a Parent to Your Parent </p><p>(03:41) The Adrenaline Phase vs. Reality Setting In </p><p>(04:18) Nolan's Story of His Father-in-Law </p><p>(05:47) How Crisis Changes Your Perspective </p><p>(07:11) The Impossibility of Compartmentalizing Life </p><p>(08:02) The Importance of Strong Work Relationships </p><p>(09:21) The Speed of Life-Changing Events </p><p>(10:01) Gaining Wisdom Through Difficulty </p><p>(10:18) The Value of Having a Coach </p><p>(12:22) Using Your Support System Effectively </p><p>(13:19) Finding a New Balance in Crisis </p><p>(14:10) Practical Ways to Help Someone in Crisis </p><p>(14:49) Sponsors: Thatch | Planful</p><p>(17:00) Navigating the Healthcare System </p><p>(18:03) The Critical Need for Medical Advocacy </p><p>(19:35) How Crisis Impacts Your Work Priorities </p><p>(20:17) Asking the Right Questions When Supporting Others </p><p>(21:04) Sponsor: Metaview</p><p></p><p></p><p></p> <br/><br/>This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit <a href="https://hrheretics.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&#38;utm_campaign=CTA_1">hrheretics.substack.com</a>
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23 MIN